New to alcohol stoves – burn time questions

It's all about trial and error. Once you get the average then add 10% for variations in weather.

Yes on figuring out an average and then adding a little margin. 10-20% extra is probably better than 50% – I'd rather let the stove cool down a little and then refill than burn more extra fuel.

I bet you could use your pot as a snuffer or maybe make a snuffer out of a coke/fosters can.

Just test it in your backyard. Take the amount you will normally be bringing to a boil, check the fuel, if your setup is efficient, it should take 15ml/ 1/2 oz to bring 2 cups to a boil. If it's fast, it should take 17.5-20ml. If it takes more than 20ml, you can safely say something is wrong with the setup.

Also note the influence of wind, and realize you have to keep the thing protected from the wind.

Once you have the consumption of your setup figured out, by getting and using an accurate measuring device, like a medicine cup with graduated markings, it's easy to duplicate this in the field.

50% over is way overkill, as noted, 10-20% is plenty. Depending on the type of stove, I don't know the ti evernew, never seen it, it's easy to just let it burn out, but if it's easy to empty it back into something, then blow it out and pour back into fuel container. Personally I just let mine burn out, I use the post boil flame as extra cooking time prior to putting the stuff in a cozy for the final cooking step.

If your setup is not getting 1/2oz 2 cup 70F water boil, then look around for one that does, I think dan's starlyte for example gets that with the right screen, but the screen / stove combination matters, in my opinion stoves should not be used without pot diameter matched wind screens, that's actually one reason people like cones I think, they are forced to use the proper diameter screen for the setup.

Also, keep in mind the basic formula: speed / efficiency, pick a place on an imaginary line between those two poles, you don't get both. Give Jim Wood's Fancy Feast stove a try, it's super cheap and easy to make, and gives you an example of one of the fastest boiling stoves out there, but also very inefficient.

It's useful to spend some time practicing with an alcohol stove because it's quite different in concept and use from a hydrocarbon fueled setup like canister or white gas. After you practice a bit, you will be able to answer the question you posted re your particular setup better than most other people.

I appreciate the helpful replies – particulary around a reasonably "error" cushion.

As noted the worst case scenario is to add some more fuel.

I'm looking forward to testing this setup out. The Evernew is reputed to be somewhere in the middle in terms of efficiency and boil times.

Keep in mind that efficiency is a function of the screen+stove combination.

The best efficiency, assuming 70F water, SLX alcohol, I have gotten is 12.5ml (sgt rock ion stove/screen), the worst, but fastest, about 20ml, with a Jim wood fancy feast. And those numbers are directly in line with boil times, ion slowest (10:30), penny in the middle (7-8 minutes), and fancy feast fastest (less than 7 minutes). I note these numbers so you will have something to compare to in general.

Most efficient setups seem able to get a boil with 15ml, though note that sometimes people claim a certain efficiency then forget to note that they are using primarily ethanol alcohol, which has more energy than the more common methanol/ethanol mixes like SLX. About 10-15% more, I believe. And pure methanol, like HEET yellow, has about 10-15% less than SLX, so you have to factor that into the fuel consumption expectations.

Also remember that methanol is toxic, the fumes are toxic, the liquid is toxic, so make sure to be well ventilated during your tests. All of the american denatured alcohols use some fairly nasty additives so keep that in mind when testing.

Even the slightest breeze will have a major impact on performance, so it's worth testing in a fairly wind free area to get your baseline numbers, then see what is needed to get fairly efficient boils in more real world settings, with moving air. It's really not very hard though, I've tested setup on creek beds with the wind blowing down the canyon and just by using a nice tight wind screen and putting the setup behind a rock it boiled almost exactly the same as indoors with a fan running. You basically want to prevent crosswinds of moving air over the top of the screen, that is.

Also keep in mind, some stoves work well on narrow pots (starlyte, ion), others really only work on wide pots (jurey penny stove, fancy feast jim wood), at least optimally. I have no idea where the evernew ti stands in that regard.

Have fun, and remember, the silence is the best part.

If the Jim Wood Super Cat stove is known for being fast but inefficient, which alcohol stoves have a reputation for efficiency?

and,

Does a stove that works well on a narrow mug also work well on a wide pot, or is there a need to match stove and pot? Narrow for narrow, wide for wide?

this thread for screens

I think wide pots will always be marginally more efficient on all stoves, but I found that, once I had an actually efficient stove setup, the difference isn’t that big between a wide pot and a narrower one for stoves that work well on narrow pots. Go too narrow and I guess it’s more challenging to deliver the flames only to the center of the pot, then you really have to rely on user direct experience on that specific pot/diameter.

Since I use a relatively narrow snowpeak 900 ml pot, I think it’s 11 cm diameter if I remember right, I was interested in finding a stove that worked well on that. If you use wide pots you can probably just use anything and it will be fine, unless the stove itself is the stand, and is too narrow, that’s probably not a good idea in general for stability/tipping stove over and starting a forest fire.

I don’t see anyone beating the sgt rock ion (my how to) for efficiency however, but there’s a fair amount out there that will give you 15ml boils a bit faster than the ion, while still retaining good efficiency, I think most of the stove/screen setups people talk about here do that if they are known as efficient.

Personally I’d ignore reputations and just focus on the actual performance/efficiency numbers, some reputations are made around as I noted not listing the fuel type used to achieve the efficiency, so it’s best to just see what a standard fuel like SLX does on the setup, then you can extrapolate from there for heet/ethanol types yourself.

It’s actually also hard to measure liquids accurately without a real graduated cylinder, I broke down and bought a chemistry one and found my measurements were about 10% off even though I’d been very careful in marking the lines on the cups, about 10% off in fact, which was kind of silly because I’d actually been at the efficiency I’d been after for a while just hadn’t known it because of that glitch. 1oz medicine cups with ml markings are fairly accurate, but hard to read.

Here is a simple and cheap DIY solution :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poDcCH_VFvE&feature=c4-overview&list=UU0PuLUKvG7Fxxex5BMVK4vw
that particular video clip has the 12-10 stove but it will work with yours too.
BTW, the idea predates my version by a few millennia so feel free to use it.
So you start with more fuel than you know you will need, snuff the flame out when done and recover.
Having to add fuel because of miscalculation is very inneficient because you need to let your burner cool down (or sacrifice your eye lids) as the burner cools down your pot content does too.

While commercial alcohol stoves arent currently prohibited by BSA, they are discouraged.
Honestly, best not to go there around scouts IMO.

Make yourself a snuffer, a can that fits reasonably snug over the stove, and you can snuff it out quick and easy and recover whatever alcohol is left. If your using the cross support, may have to lift it off the stove using tent stakes or something first.

The windscreen is more important than the stove when it comes to boil times. Only you can determine, do plenty at home and get to know it well.

"best not to go there around scouts IMO."

As a legacy scout with the scars to prove it, I'll give this a big ol' +1.

If you want to go with an alky stove, I'd consider the Starlyte or something of a similar design which will mitigate the damage if knocked over by a flying pinecone or tenderfoot.

Franco, I watched your video and could see you recovered the fuel from the cold burner and spilled lots of fuel while doing so. Do it again with the hot burner and we'll see if you can recover all of it.

Why would you want to recover fuel when it is still hot ?
Takes two minutes to cool down.
BTW I have used this system for a few years and yes I am aware that it is really cheap and easy to do so anyone can do it without having to buy something extra, but some like me do like cheap and easy…
BTW, that clip was a much shorter version of this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX9j7pF38Tw
so yes I was more concerned about time than I am when doing it for real.

When I want to recover alcohol from a 12-10 stove, I simply tip it up 90 degrees and let the alcohol pour out of the side holes. This is not perfect, because the alcohol may dribble out of two or three of the side holes at once. If you have a narrow mouth on the alcohol bottle, then you will be spilling alcohol unless you use foil or something else to catch the drops. If you have a wide mouth on the alcohol bottle, then you can catch it all directly.

–B.G.–

I just use the spout of my alcohol bottle to suck it in.

Tilt the stove,squeeze air of of the bottle, invert and shove the spout into a corner, release and magically any leftover fuel dissapears into the bottle.

Spooky.

Bob and MB, sure would like to see a video of you guys doing that with a hot burner or even a cold one. It sure looks like a waste of time to try and recover. I can't for the life of me see a fuel bottle getting down into the corner of a 12-10 burner. If you try and recover from a hot burner it seems counter productive. Waiting for it to cool down is allowing fuel to evaporate. I think it's like whizzing in the wind if you get my drift. I suggest we get to know the abilities of our stoves and use the appropriate amount of fuel to get the job done and let the remaining few drops evaporate.

"which alcohol stoves have a reputation for efficiency?"

Check out Yeruski's Starlyte series. They're about as good as any in terms of fuel efficiency. Which means they don't heat water quickly, but that is the trade off.

Dan, I don't know what you are thinking about fuel recovery from a 12-10 stove.

1. The unlit stove is sitting flat on the ground with fuel in it.
2. Pick up the stove by the bottom edge and turn it 90 degrees, perpendicular to the ground.
3. Immediately the fuel will start to pour or dribble out of the side holes on the bottom, so you have a fuel container there to catch it. The quantity of fuel is generally a spoonful, so there is not a huge amount to contend with. Due to the way the 12-10 stove is assembled and the way its holes are oriented, the fuel may dribble out of one hole, or it may be two or three, so a wide mouth fuel bottle might be handy. Otherwise, you can simply pour it onto a waterproof surface of plastic, aluminum foil, etc. Then you can pour that into a narrow mouth fuel bottle.

So, what is this about a fuel bottle getting down into the corner of a 12-10 burner? The question makes no sense. The fuel bottle does not go _into_ the burner. The fuel pours out.

–B.G.–

+1 on the Starlyte. Fast does not matter to me with boiling water. I also really like to be able to put a lid on the stove.

" I suggest we get to know the abilities of our stoves and use the appropriate amount of fuel to get the job done and let the remaining few drops evaporate."
Given the many variables involved, water/air temperature/type of fuel (you may not be able to always get the same brand) altitude ,different pots,wind and the fact that many like me heat up anything from 200ml or so to 500ml depending on the meal as well as not needing a full boil at times (for coffee for example) trying to guess is a bit futile, you may say just like pissing in the wind.
Again for the life of me I have no idea why you would want to transfer hot fuel.
But of course as I have already pointed out, a 2g stove snuffer is practically free so may not suit some.

"a 2g stove snuffer"

That works. You can cut that down to about one gram if you use super-thin aluminum foil.

I purchased some European chocolate bars that were wrapped in this super-thin stuff, so that got recycled as a stove snuffer.

–B.G.–

for those of us willing to struggle along with heavier weights, the bottom of a pop can bottom piece is going to weigh a few grams more, as well as being more durable, for the same functionality. That might be 3 grams, for a snuffer/durable little fuel recoverer.

I like threads like this because it brings to light more ideas. While that 2 gram, or 1 gram, extra, is probably going to be too heavy for some, it's not a bad idea too, the ion is easy to snuff out that way too, and it uses 7oz cans, which are smaller. The can bottom will form a spout too more or less, so pouring is fine. I am not quite clear on the aluminum foil cup thingie, it seems like it will always get squished, seems easier to just use the bottom of a can, which weighs just a touch more, and doesn't get squished.

Maybe I'll pull apart a failed stove and recycle the can bottom for that purpose, makes sense.

"Bob and MB, sure would like to see a video of you guys doing that with a hot burner or even a cold one. It sure looks like a waste of time to try and recover. "

My burner isnt hot. The second its out I can pick it up and recover. Takes all of a couple seconds to do.

"I can't for the life of me see a fuel bottle getting down into the corner of a 12-10 burner. "

Can you envision it getting into the corner of a tealight cup?

"Waiting for it to cool down is allowing fuel to evaporate. I think it's like whizzing in the wind if you get my drift."
I dont disagree, but I dont have that problem.

"I suggest we get to know the abilities of our stoves and use the appropriate amount of fuel to get the job done and let the remaining few drops evaporate"

I use about the right amount. I might have a few ml left 1-3. I quickly suck it up. Over a week+ trip, it can add up into fuel for a day, or even two. Not useless at all, and exceedingly simple to do. Sometimes I screw up and use fuel for 2cups, when I dont want coffee and dinner only takes 1.5 cups, or less if I dont cook everything.

Ok, MB uses a tealite container and heats 1 cup most of the time and can easily suck the remaining fuel out with his fuel bottle. I thought he had a 12-10, silly me!

Bob and Franco are dribblers and will lose more fuel than what is reclaimed over time.(Francos video)

Fiddle factors are running high here. Adding items to our kits for the sake of trying to save a ml of fuel. It's a good thing we hike our own hikes ;-)

"Bob and Franco are dribblers and will lose more fuel than what is reclaimed over time."

Dan, it just takes a bit of practice to do it correctly.

"Adding items to our kits for the sake of trying to save a ml of fuel."

If you think about it, using a couple of grams of aluminum foil to save a bunch of grams of alcohol sounds like a good deal, weight-wise.

–B.G.–