Beginner to winter backpacking…need help with layering

What weight bottoms? Those 1 or 1.5 don't do much standing around. I like the 3's Or down pants.

I don't do much winter backpacking on boots, but I've been known to do plenty of cross country ski trips where we are out for a few nights at a time.

Rule Number 1. If you can stay completely 100% dry, it isn't that hard to stay warm. As soon as you start getting wet from sweat or from a step into a cold water stream, and if you can't get dried off in a hurry, you are in for a cold night.

For standing around in camp in the evening or in the early morning, you probably need some big puffy down jacket or down parka.

This may sound a bit heavy, but if you can find some U.S. Army issue wool trousers, they can be practical. Not soft wool field pants, but Class A worsted wool. They won't feel itchy if you wear polypro long johns underneath.

Avoid most cotton clothing. If it gets wet, it gets cold and stays cold.

–B.G.–

Start by adding a warm, in-camp-only layer for your legs. Seems like most folks will have more and warmer layers for the torso, and your list sounds like that's the case for you. Light down pants are great – WM Flash or Montbell UL or UL Tec are some of the lighter ones, also Goosefeet.

Hands, feet and head are also critical. Booties are great, down or synthetic; warm gloves or a system of hand layers (I do powerstretch liner gloves, knit mittens, and mitten shells). And a WARM hat or layers of hat. Down beanies from Blackrock, double-thick beanies, fleece hat over balaclava, etc.

Don't stand around camp. :) I keep busy or sit around a fire. If I'm not doing that, then I'm in my sleeping bag. If I really want to stand/sit around camp to be social, my sleeping bag is under my shell for more insulation. I try to only take a jacket warm enough for light camp chores. For me at 27F, that's a medium weight fleece jacket, possibly under my shell if there's any wind. (Assuming light hat, gloves, long johns.)

At around 25F, I'd add a down jacket.

At around 10-15F, I'd kind of like to have insulated pants, but I don't yet.

Maybe adding your rain jacket over your down jacket would've helped with warmth?

Years ago I camped in the Adirondacks to well below 0F. I recall -12F and maybe -20F.

I believer Colin Fletcher wrote in The Complete Walker that while winter camping lunch begins immediately after breakfast, takes a small break during dinner, then resumes until you go to bed. I.e. be sure to maintain a continuous calorie uptake ("calorie drip" according to Skurka).

Always strive to be "comfortably cool" according to a winter camping instructor during lessons prior to our first trip. I.e. lots of layers and lots of adjustment, depending on activity.

Get into your sleeping bag with almost all your clothing on, then take some of it off. It's such a chore in the confined space that when you're done the sleeping bag will be all warmed up.

Stuff a wool sock or mitten into the small breathing space made when you close your sleeping bag around your head…the wool gets warm and moist and pre-warms and moistens the air you breath.

Run around while waiting for food to cook. Once at -12F it took a while for food to cook, even on our Optimus 111B roaring stove. Every so often we'd run through thigh-deep snow for fifty feet and back…this warmed us up nicely.

del

When you say winter and you live in california, I assume that you mean camping and travel above the snow line.

Compared to the rest of the USA, our Sierra Nevada winters are relatively mild with daytime temperatures often very close to the freezing point of water. So the key challenge is staying dry.

+1 to Mr Bob Gross's comments. You do not want to spend a lot of $ on gear and clothing up front.

See the chapter on winter camping in Ryan Jordan's book. Also check out the equipment discussion in Mike Clelland's co authored book on backcountry skiing, Allen & Mike's Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book .

If you think you need more help, the local SF Bay Chapter of the Sierra Club will have a day long orientation on snow camping and two trips for beginners in Feb/March.

I mostly use the exact same base and mid layer for booth summer/shoulder season as for winter, SmartWool and Patag R1 Fleece, with a soft-shell pant and jacket or PaciLite Goretex for when it snows ….but everyone is different. Suspenders are highly recommended!

Also search on "winter camping" and "snow camping" on this site.

"If you think you need more help, the local SF Bay Chapter of the Sierra Club will have a day long orientation on snow camping and two trips for beginners in Feb/March."

If you live closer to Palo Alto, then it is the Loma Prieta Chapter of the Sierra Club. Every year or two there is a Beginner Snow Camping Seminar, and that is an evening or two of class work along with a weekend trip in the snow. There tends to be very little emphasis on snowshoe or ski travel, and more emphasis on constructing snow shelters, cooking in freezing weather, and tasks of that nature. Exactly how successful that seminar is will depend on the snow. For some years, the winter snow has been disappointing, so digging a snow cave is difficult.

Some people learn this best in a seminar. Some learn best out of a book. Some learn best by tagging along with some buddies. Your job is to know how you learn best and then go with that method.

–B.G.–

Please, buy the best book on winter camping ever.

"Allen & Mike's Really Cool Backcountry Ski Book"

OK, so maybe 1/3 of it is on backcountry skiing but the rest is on winter camping and clothing. I used to teach winter survival to US Army ROTC cadets, including a weekend winter bivouac so this is part of my basis for recommending this book.

My layering advice:

BASE LAYER> Cabela's sells a vast assortment of goood synthetic base layers. Unless you live south of the Mason-Dixon Line and below 4,000 feet get at least a medium weight set of longies.

MID LAYER> synthetic or fluffy Merino wool sweater

INSULATING LAYER> A good synthetic puffy. The North Face appears to have a good new layer with its Puff Ball insulation. Taking along insulating pants will, when used with the jacket, greatly extend warmth of your sleeping bag. Dress for sleepng before cooking dinner and you'll be warmer for the more sedentary camp chores.
(Down jackets and pants are nice for camp but get damp from travel exertions.)
(Pile or fleece is OK but heavier than shelled synthetic insulation and much bulkier to pack.)

OUTER LAYER> You have two choices:
1. Softshells W/ windproof membrane and good DWR treatment

2. WPB hardshells like eVent or Gore-Tex Pro Shell (not "regular" GTX).
I prefer my REI Kimtah eVent suit. It's lighter and far more compact than softshell outer layers and almost as breathable but totally waterproof. I recommend a good parka, not a mere jacket.

HEADGEAR> A nice "Inca" style wool knit hat with fleece liner is good for both day and sleeping. "Everest"brand made in Nepal is a good one. You WILL need a warm sleeping hat or balaclava. Your sleeping bag's down hood is not enough as your head will turn inside it and be exposed when you move around in your sleep.

FEET> base layer-> thin poly liner socks (synthetic dress socks are fine)
insulating layer-> I prefer thin closed cell neoprene diver's socks which I have seam sealed. They are THE VBL, keeping sweat from ruining your boots' insulation and provide great insulation as well.

BOOTS> try for GTX lined boots to keep water from entering from the outside.

GLOVES> GTX outer shells with TWO or more removable fleece liners of medium and thick fleece to vary acording to temnperaures. Buy the gloves with one pair of liners they come with then go find another pair of fleece gloves to fit the shells.

Mitten shells for very cold situaions where you use your warmest glove liners.

what conditions are you expecting? how much time are you moving each day? how much gear do you want to buy? how much money do you want to spend?
‘winter’ is a broad term.
like any trip, a winter trip requires first analyzing the trip. high and low temps, precip,snow cover, river crossings, wind exposure, travel mode and time etc.

all of these will make a huge difference in what gear to bring, as will the fact that all your gear needs to work together, for example, if you want to layer your shell over your down parka or sleepingbag, it needs to be roomy enough. conversely if you plan on wearing a heavy down parka in your slepingbag, it needs to big enough for that, or adjustable like a quilt.
If you are using a VBL in your sleeping bag, you can’t dry clothes in there at night.
etc, etc,

for books,+2 on al and mike backcountry ski book(even if you don’t plan on skiing)
also Andrew skurka’s ultimate hiker has a great winter chapter, focusing on vapor barrier liners (VBLs), as well as good description of the analyzing process.
if your weather if just barely around freezing, look for articles from Scotland and Scandinavia to get a similar climate, or shoulder season articles from BPL staff in Montana.

there are several good articles on BPL dscribing winter and shoulder season set-ups and gear, here are a few to get you started;

Paramo clothing

down jacket

winter mid layers

spring snow trekking list

wintry fringe

Great thread here guys. I'm going on my first overnight winter trip and this thread has provided me with a lot of useful information.

When hiking… even in the winter… you will most likely sweat and anything you are wearing will get wet from sweat.

The trick is to wear as little clothing as possible without getting too chilled. So your layers have to be adjusted to your work/heat output. That way, when you get to camp, the fewest pieces of clothing will be wet from sweat and you will have lots of dry clothing to put on. Generally a thin base layer (no cotton!) will dry from your body heat after you stop and put more layers on top of that base layer. But you might want to change into a dry pair of socks and/or camp booties to keep your feet warm.

No cotton in the winter.

Billy

Since I live on a hobby farm, and have to do chores in the winter, I have a few items I will mention. First, layers are your friend. When I first get out and am walking around seeing how things are, I'm fairly bundled. When I start carrying hay bales I tend to open my jacket, and it stays open until I start to get cold (no sweating allowed). Second, I tend to be a fan of natural fibres, and in the winter that will be wool. At least 80% wool will give you the benefits. If you can't stand wool against your skin, at least get a wool sweater, shirt, outer socks, etc. Last, don't forget your legs. Lots of people talk about the best jacket, gloves and boots. Not as many talk about insulated pants, long johns (again, wool rocks), and snow pants. If you want to test your "winter gear", take your stuff and go watch a Christmas Parade up here in Canada. If you can stand in one spot, you're doing good. :)

These folks do more hot-tenting, but lots of good advice on this website:
http://wintertrekking.com/clothing/

Has to be modified a bit for the backpacking we do, but they stay and warm and comfortable while traveling on the rather cold Canadian shield.

My own personal layering system for ski touring/winter backpacking:

mid-weight base layer top and bottom
wool pants
wool socks with liners
100 wt fleece pull over
anorak wind breaker (if windy/light snow)
shell mitts
wool liner gloves
beanie
polypro balaclava stashed for handy use

I tend to pump out a lot of heat so I like a system that is very breathable. Note that where I spend my winters is generally cold and dry vs cold and wet as well.

in pack:
mid-layer wool mitts
wpb shell (more so towards warmer, later winter weather. All depends)
army liner "puffy pants"
wind pants
goggles
GoLite bitteroot
thicker fleece balaclava
spare pair liner gloves and wool socks
I pack bread bags to use as a VBL for the rare uber-cold use.

If doing more camping (group trips), I pack a pair of leather work gloves to wear with the liners in camp. Keep my hands warm and dry while building snow furniture, helping to set up the cooking area and other misc camp chores.

I have a pair of "real" softshell pants I picked up rather cheaply recently. May gives these a whirl for a tour or two vs the wool pants I love.

@ the original poster.

Bob Gross refers to the Sierra Club San Francisco Bay Chapter, Snow Camping Section. The class this year will be held Jan 10 in the East Bay. Go to http://www.snowcamping.org for more information. The in town session is followed by one one night overnight and one two night overnight in the Sierra Nevada with snow shelter building, LNT, and map and compass plus good food, good camping and good company. A lot of the curriculum focuses on adapting 3 season gear for winter use because you do not want to spend a lot of $ and then find out you do not like snow camping. We talk a lot about borrowing, renting, or finding useful gear at thrift shops, etc

The Loma Prieta Chapter in the South Bay also runs a winter camping class every 2nd or 3rd year.

I find that my 3 season layers of microweight wool and 100 weight fleece are more or less adaptable to winter camping except for the outmost insulation layer, footwear, and sleeping gear.

Sounds like you need a puffy jacket for dinner time. Down is expensive and I think the outdoor industry has used the shift to the DWR treated down to hike up the prices of down clothing and bags. Watch for sales on the Patagonia Das Parka or Micro Puff and check out the MontBell web site. LLBean gear is also cost effective and highly functional.

A whole winter wonderland awaits you.

"The Loma Prieta Chapter in the South Bay also runs a winter camping class every 2nd or 3rd year."

Yes, and that is happening in January coming up.

–B.G.–

Yup.

The Sierra Club Loma Prieta Chapter Snow Camping Class is Tuesday Jan 13- 6 to 900pm

http://lomaprieta.sierraclub.org/calendar

Ok, so also beginner winter hiker….have a few items to mix and match as far as layering. Lets say….6000' elevation in Idaho backcountry, overnighter, 3 mile hike in (easy hike), with a low of 15F.

(right now, excluding feet/hand layering)

Base layer legs and torso:
smartwool merino lightweight OR REI midweight polartec

Legs:
base
+
Standard 3season nylon pants
+
IN CAMP – 100% polyester gym sweatpants OR spend $$$ and buy like montbell UL down pants/goosefeet gear pants
+
Driducks rain paints OR REI rain pants (certainly more durable than driducks)

Torso:
base
+
Smartwool Merino Hoody OR lowe alpine midweight powerstretch/fleece top
+
Fauxdini (china Houdini knockoff) windshirt
+
IN CAMP – Ghost Whisperer down jacket OR Montbell Alpine Light down jacket OR Costco cheapo down vest (perhaps bring two of the 3 but not sure which?)
+
Driducks rain jacket OR standard Columbia rain jacket

Head:
Pick 2 of the following:
Blackrock gear limited edition down hat
EE Hoodlum (2.1oz apex)
Zpacks/Goosefeet Down balaclava
Merino Wool Buff (I do like buffs a lot)

Any suggestions for around 15 degrees? Any pitfalls here?

del

I would want some sort of fleece beanie for winter, and a huge +1 for the fleece jacket. Fleece can be a lifesaver, literally. If the daytime temps aren't going above about 25F, consider 200-wt fleece.

A simple combination of polyester base/fleece jacket/rain jacket (with hood and generously-sized pit zips) along with a hooded down parka will get you a long way in the winter. Personally, I would find the down jacket and separate down hood extremely annoying. So nice to have a big parka that fits easily over everything to throw on quickly when you must stop.

+1 to Rick's recommendation for shell pants with full side zips. Mandatory item, IMO.