Ultralight dream clothing, what would you buy

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[Peter S]

Eric, who cares about breathability if your garment isolates and makes you hot? ;-)

Haha, but a fleece vest is cooler than a long sleeved fleece, so you're on your way now… ;-)

Btw, have you tried the squamish material? It's one of the more breathable windshirt materials out there.

In the end, one clothing system that works for one person on a backpacking trip doesn't necessarily work for another person :-)

No worries in disagreeing, other than it makes Daniel more confused…

Sorry Daniel!

[Peter S]

Hey, don't go pulling the skill card in an edit Eric… that's low ;-) haha

[Peter S]

But why add a thin base layer to your pack weight if you don't need it? I'll either wear just my t-shirt underneath my shell or the next step up will be my Squamish that i'm already carrying – multipurpose.

If we were talking short day trips, and not extended hikes, well, then picking and choosing from a never ending gear closet would be another deal ;-).

[James holden]

Eric, who cares about breathability if your garment isolates and makes you hot? ;-)

Haha, but a fleece vest is cooler than a long sleeved fleece, so you're on your way now… ;-)

Btw, have you tried the squamish material? It's one of the more breathable windshirt materials out there.

i own and use a dead bird celeris windshit vest … which is quite "breathable" as far as windshirts go

breathability DOES matter to a certain degree … otherwise we would simply use silnylon rain jackets all the time

each time you add ANY layer the breathability gets reduced … some like base layers and light fleeces are HIGHLY breathable so theres less impact … others like softshells and windshirts are LESS so, and theres much more impact

using a windshirt under a rain jacket poses the following problems

– the windshirt is one of your LEAST breathable active clothing items, only the rain jacket is worse … so you are layering your 2 least breathable clothing items to walk in the rain where theres high outside humidity

– by the time you decide to put on the rain jacket over your windhirt (i mean NO ONE here puts it on at the first few drops of rain really, they all brag about how their windshirt are water resistant) … youll will have a significant amount of moisture already in the windshell … that has to go SOMEWHERE … and with the reduced breathability of your 2 least breathable layers, guess where its staying

– straight WET nylon is "clingy" … throw your winsdshirt in the washer,dont dry it, put it straight on under your rainjacket and youll see what that means … it sticks when wet, and the moisture doesnt wick very well when its under a layer … because of its "fuzziness" fleece wicks moisture away from the skin pretty well … which is why you can take a soaked fleece, wring it out and put it on right next to the skin, even under a rain jacket

now there ARE people who DO put on their rainjackets over their softshell/windshirts, but these are usually climbers or other such in the winter … usually in activities where taking on/off multiple layers is more risky at belays than simply putting on another layer…. and even then in high output activities, they often take off the layers they dont need … to sweat in winter is to die … but most people here dont need to worry about it for what they do

at the end of the day its pretty useless to complain about breathability if you are layering you 2 LEAST breathable layers together when active

SKILLS trumps fancy fabric anyday

;)

[James holden]

But why add a thin base layer to your pack weight if you don't need it? I'll either wear just my t-shirt underneath my shell or the next step up will be my Squamish that i'm already carrying – multipurpose.

If we were talking short day trips, and not extended hikes, well, then picking and choosing from a never ending gear closet would be another deal ;-).

you ALREADY HAVE a thin base layer

in fact in WET conditions you should have 2 …

1 for use during the day, 1 for sleeping in … unless you like bringing moisture in you nice down sleeping bag

;)

[Peter S]

I guess our climate we hike in and our minds differs – no worries Eric.

[Daniel Collins]

I think so far from the knowledge presented here, for the climates I mentioned, it would be a good idea to have both rain shell and separate windshell. I *think* I read somewhere of the windshell being used as a makeshift vapor barrier by someone after a rain shell DWR failure in extreme cold, in an emergency situation, but not sure.

A suggestion for a durable rain shell and pants would be appreciated with lightness being my preference over price. See my previous post – the suggestions for the RAB products didn't pan out since those mentioned are all discontinued. So we are looking for a breathable rain jacket that wont fail me in the freezing rain on the west side of the cascades, and that should last through a long AT or equivalent hike, and that should not tear wide open at the mere sight of a blackberry bush.
I saw this:
ZPacks™ Waterproof Breathable Cuben Fiber-eVent Rain Jacket

but it looks like a garbage sack with arms, designed for the tin man from OZ.
If it's the best thing going however, I will gladly cast all fashion sense aside and get one.
If my Marmot Dri-clime stretch pants are acceptable as wind pants, then I can save buying something else.
If a cuben fiber poncho/tarp is light enough to replace the tyvek ground sheet for my Skyscape-X, then I might be able to use it primarily for that, and secondarily as a backup in case of a rain shell failure.
This query has opened some healthy discussion on clothing philosophy so I hope it will continue. Remember to tell us what your price-is-no-object dream system consists of.
I will check out the links posted above from the person named .. er … Link.

[Peter S]

"you ALREADY HAVE a thin base layer

in fact in WET conditions you should have 2 …

1 for use during the day, 1 for sleeping in … unless you like bringing moisture in you nice down sleeping bag

;)"

Nope, because i don't need a thin base layer during the day, i can take that weight and add it to my thicker sleeping baselayer, and thus, i'll be able to sleep comfortable at a lower temperature than you, for the same weight… ;-)

[James holden]

daniel …

if you want "durable" get something thats 3 layer …

but more importantly get something with a no questions, bring back for any reason WARRANTY

this and other board is littered with posts about rain jacket failures, principally from delamination

even the fanciest brand names have had their "bomber" jackets delaminate if your look for the threads here

and UL rain jackets are especially at risk of failure with their thinner fabrics, and 2.5 layer

;)

I *think* I read somewhere of the windshell being used as a makeshift vapor barrier by someone after a rain shell DWR failure in extreme cold, in an emergency situation, but not sure.

if a windshirt is used as a VBL … its useless as a "breathable" windshirt =P

[Daniel Collins]

… and fer cryn out loud would you guys stop arguing long enough to tell me what a Squamish is ? Then keep arguing after that.

[James holden]

Nope, because i don't need a thin base layer during the day, i can take that weight and add it to my thicker sleeping baselayer, and thus, i'll be able to sleep comfortable at a lower temperature than you, for the same weight… ;-)

of come on are you wearing NOTHING during the day at all?

yr wearing some kind of base layer … whether a t-shirt, button up shirt, cap1, merino, etc …

are ya going off about weight "bragging' over a shirt you bring anyways

;)

[Peter S]

hehe :-)

What is more important is that you buy that Zpacks Event Cuben Fiber jacket, and make a great review about it after your trip!

Okay, got to run guys…take care :-)

[James holden]

and fer cryn out loud would you guys stop arguing long enough to tell me what a Squamish is ?

the squamish is one of the most expensive windshirts you can buy ..

some people claim is highly breathable, there is some dispute however on the numbers if you read certain threads …

some good climbers use and swear by it … even more use some other brand and do just as crazy things in the worst conditions

you decide if the fancy gear is worth the $$$$ ;)

http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&category=Jackets&model=Squamish-Hoody

[Nick Gatel]

Daniel,

Sounds like a wonderful multi-use item. Past experience has taught me that heavy use as a groundsheet will leave a poncho full of holes. I used my zPacks Cuben poncho/groundsheet as a groundsheet a few times when new, just to test it. On most trips I use a polycro ground sheet or a waterproof sleeping pad. Long term use of a poncho as a groundsheet is not a good idea, IMO.

[Peter S]

"of come on are you wearing NOTHING during the day at all?

yr wearing some kind of base layer … whether a t-shirt, button up shirt, cap1, merino, etc .."

Nope, nothing…besides the chest hair i've grown being badass…

Se ya! ;-)

[Daniel Collins]

" if you want "durable" get something thats 3 layer …"

Oh NO ! Not the tin man jacket I hope ! That's 3 layer it says ….

OK, statistically (somewhat) more reliable fabrics with "fewer" failures ?
Goretex Pro ? E-Vent ? Brands /models ?
What would you buy right now from the 2013 / 14 clothing line if you intended to make your outer shell an expensive and hopefully long term investment.
As a hiker this is where I want to throw the most money. I see the North Cascades in my future because that's where I'm from and that's where I want to hike, but the gear should hopefully work in other situations (within reason).

It is frustrating reading about ten year old fabric technologies in the various hiking books which were last updated in 2003…..

EDIT : thanks for the link to the Squamish, looks very good and perhaps tougher that the Ghost Whisperer. And it's named after a Washington State tribe too …

[James holden]

What would you buy right now from the 2013 / 14 clothing line if you intended to make your outer shell an expensive and hopefully long term investment.

anything made by Outdoor Research … not because i believe they are any more "reliable" … but because they have one of the BEST warranties in the business … a dog can eat your jacket and theyll take care of you

there are 3 types of "reliable/durable"

1. it has the features you want that prevent "failure" due to condtions … ie the hood is shaped well so it doesnt "leak", the zippers are really waterproof or have storm flaps …. this depends on what you will do … for example many UL rain jackets skimp on these features, but thats OK for their intended conditions … you arent going to be in the middle of a storm on K2 with one of those

2. the fabric doesnt fail in the field … either through abrasion or DWR failure … generally 3 layer are more durable in that regard, and the importance of skills in that you reapply your DWR regularly … also have a backup plan IF your jacket does fail in the field

3. long term durability … delamination … its that simple this is the killer of every jacket out there … it happened to every brand no matter how cheap or expensive … what matters at this point is the WARRANTY

rain jackets IMO are things you go through, eventually if you wear them enough, especially around town all the time in the PNW in the rain … theres a good chance theyll fail eventually …

personally i wouldnt call any a long term "investment" if you use it often enough … except for OR or other brands with a no questions asked warranty where theyll just send u a new one every time

;)

[Nick Gatel]

The technology (Gore-Tex) has been around for almost 40 years. If you are hiking all day in cold rain (e.g., under 40F) you are going to end up being cold and wet. The interior gets soaked from sweat, then water starts coming in from the outside. eVent is more breatable than Gore-Tex. Most eVent jackets do not have zip pits, but I noticed the new REI jacket does, it is not a light jacket though.

My zPacks poncho vents, thus breathes, better than any rain jacket I have ever worn. It is smaller than the typical poncho, so it is not problematic as the typical poncho in wind and cross country work. It is not perfect. There is no perfect rain gear, as I have been dealing with this delimma for nearly 50 years.

[Daniel Collins]

" because they have one of the BEST warranties in the business "

won't do me any good if I'm in a sleet storm and hypothermic, as at that time i would be thinking of what blunt object to use on the store salesman who hyped up the warranty and got me to buy the jacket … but seriously, Craftsman power tools – best warranty – but you WILL end up using the warranty because they are junk.

Good points you bring up -if being that all other qualities equal, the warranty wins – THAT I can understand.
My uses: I won't use for daily wear – I live in the lightning capitol of the world here in Central FL and if I'm getting heavy rain that means I'm running as fast as i can to get away from a possible lightning strike. I have a Columbia rain jacket for that, no good for the hills. So my hiking shell is for that only – hiking/camping.

I won't be wearing a rock helmet or climbing harness, snow shoes, or skis. Just a ULA Catalyst pack and maybe a camera chest pack. I hope this clarifies a little better.

[Daniel Collins]

Nick I have not altogether decided against a cuben fiber poncho yet.
But coming down the trail you must sound like a bunch of chipmunks fighting over a giant bag of Cheetos huh ?
I like the idea of sweat and breathability being a non-issue with ponchos.
I can see where the wind shirt would complement it in the cold.

[James holden]

make sure it FITS then

OR helium if it does .. unless yr bushwhacking or climbing … itll be fine for the rain most people here deal with, and it weights 6 oz

if yr going to hike in all day rain then id get something with 3 layer goretex pro with full length rain zips …or event … again from OR or some other manufacturer with a great, unlimited, no questions asked warranty …

OR is not "junk" its used and tested by many alpinist around the world and they are a major brand name

the problem is that unlike some companies like dead bird (whose "lifetime" warranty on harnesses is only for 200 days) or TNF with their marketing budgets … they dont spend as much time self promoting themselves or sponsoring the "coolest" athletes

what many people dont realize is that the "brand name" is irrelevant in quality outdoor gear except for the WARRANTY …

all these jackets have been in the gnarliest places, all of them have been used by "top" athletes, all of them have products for gnarly/UL/whatever conditions, all of em have their screaming rabid fanbois in the intrawebs

the only real difference is in the fit of the particular product, the price they charge, and the WARRANTY

if youre spending $$$$$ … that company should take care of you … not argue about whether its covered or having to wait weeks

for example you can read about it here …

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=73770&startat=22

if you are every unhappy with an OR product for ANY reason at all after ANY length of time … theyll simply exchange or refund you the purchase

;)

[Dale Wambaugh]

Rain gear:
GoLite poncho or if want a jacket, walk into Outdoor Research and buy one of the jackets with the Torsoflo side zippers. There are several models to suit your weight and budget needs. I went with the older Panorama model made with Pertex (the current model is OR's Ventia fabric). I'm of a mind to concentrate on ventilation features with whatever light 2.5 layer fabric du jour. As others said, DWR mainenance is key, with careful laundering, re-treatment and ultimately, a lifetime warranty.

IMHO, there's no free lunch on rain gear. Light stuff is either weak on breathability and venting options and/or durability. You can get more functional jackets, but it's no effort to have the weight double or even triple. I have conceded to heavier jackets for my PNW all day drizzle conditions: SUL options just don't cut it. I think a poncho makes a great summer CYA rain gear choice and you get emergency shelter and oack cover in the bargain with a 7oz load and $60 outlay.

I'm a big fan of wind shirts and have the previous Houdini model. I don't know what to suggest with Patagonia's recent fabric change on the Houdini. Montane is my first thought, and size up one size.

I use wicking polyester base layers. Patagonia is easy, and I've used REI, TNF, GoLite, Nike and others. I like the meshy-ier weaves vs the smoother silkier ones. I crank it up to cap2/3 to suit the season. I have an REI light Power Dry top that is great for cool weather base layer with a rain or wind shell. News to me, Power Dry comes in several weights.

Botton down shirts don't work for me when hiking hard. Great for travel, but just soggy when I'm going uphill. I verified this yesterday on a day hike with a 2000' gain in 2 miles and low 80's. I wished for a wicking shirt soon enough. Wind shirts will fill that gap well.

R1 (Power Dry) or Power Stretch for mid layers.

Use vests for warmer weather CYA layering to save weight and bulk.

Pants: REI Sahara zip offs, and to my surprise, Columbia Silver Ridge zip offs and shorts. The Silver Ridge fabric is comfortable and dries fast. Ex Officio Nio Amphi shorts are good too.

For cool damp weather, light soft shell pants are great. For all day rain, silk weight polyester long johns with 2.5 layer rain pants. I see rain pants as pretty much sacrificial garments as they tend to get trashed more than tops. Marmot Precip or the equivalent will keep you dry enough and balance weigh/cost/durability.

Shoes du jour are Patagonia Drifter AC. They have stiff rock resistant soles with great traction, good padding, and they breathe. Best for low volume feet I think.

For puffy insulation, I like 90/100g jackets like the Patagonia Micro Puff or First Ascent Igniter for colder westher. I do carry a Revelcloud vest for my summer day hiking CYA layer, but I prefer a Patagonia R1 with a windshirt vs a thin puffy like a Nanopuff or Thermawrap. That combo leaves all kinds of variations for those 45-50f days with sporadic rain and little sun.

[Dale Wambaugh]

OR really walks the talk on their warranty. I sent something in for replacement recently and it was quick and hassle-free.

[Dale Wambaugh]

The poncho groundsheet thing has never made sense to me. I'd love to have a SUL Cuben poncho, but I would never throw it down in the rocks and mud and sleep on it.

Ponchos can be great rain gear. They need to be properly cut to cover your pack and a simple waist belt of light cord with a toggle will tame the loose ends. They look bad, but if you can get overcthe fashion issues, they make a lot of sense for UL use: you get well ventilated rain gear with coverage to the knees, a pack cover that keeps the whole pack dry, and excellent emergency shelter as well.

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