“Medium Light”

I'm still around 25lbs. Can I call it KSL (kinda-sorta light), or is it just heavy?

"I'm still around 25lbs."

Does the dog count in your base weight?

–B.G.–

"Medium Light", to me, means:

-> pack with an internal frame (None of this "frameless, beltless" fru fru for me.)

-> a fast to set up, solo enclosed tent (Don't want creepy crawlies on me at night)

-> boots that are DURABLE and protect my soles (Wispy,etherial British boots need not apply.)

-> a mattress that's comfortable and quiet

-> a down bag (that has room for insulated clothes to take me to 10 F.)

-> aluminum and plastic utensils (Ti ain't light enough or practical enough – IMHO.)

-> BWP rain gear (That is "light enough" AND durable for all seasons.)

-> reliable, EFFICIENT stoves

I eschew:
tarps, Dri Ducks, Ti mugs & spoons, alky stoves, trail runners, packs that are just bags with shoulder straps, 1/2 length mattresses that torture one's lower body, fragile CF hiking poles and, well, you get it – I like durable, comfortable "Medium Light" gear.

P.S. SULers, "Not that there's anything wrong with that", as Seinfield used to say.

Eric,

I use much similar items to you for Autumn/spring trips and normally can get in at about 10-15lb range pounds without food/fuel/water.

Edit for typo.

Sharon,

Love that category, "KSL". Yes, you're in that range.

But I gotta say that I feel a debt of gratitude to SULers and ULers for blazing a trail with lighter gear. My "ML" and your "KSL" gear was considered fairly UL about 10 years ago.

"I'm still around 25lbs. Can I call it KSL (kinda-sorta light), or is it just heavy?"

Thats pretty heavy. Thats mainstream REI backpacker weight.

Actually Eric there is nothing stopping you from hitting a ten pound base other than possibly the internal frame which likely isn't even needed with that low base weight. There are just far lighter choices than what you picked without much, if any sacrifice in comfort. (Though I do scratch my head at the Ti aversion.) But if you are happy with your choices, great, CYOG.

I disagree, MB. I am involved with a "lightweight backpacking" meet-up group that used to meet at the local REI conference room. Over 80% of the attendees routinely carried over 40# packs (that's why they attended our meetings, to learn how they could lighten their loads). The two of us that organized this group tend to carry around 20-25#, depending on the trip length, with base weights of 12-15#. We think of ourselves as "lightweight backpackers." 25# isn't all that heavy in my mind, but 30# is.

I don't know…

25 lbs is maybe KSL.
Not REI-class, but close ;^)
It could even tip into KindaLight depending on where the person is… snowshoes?

If someone says they are UL, it doesn't really say a lot. Not without knowing where they plan on using the stuff.

I think it would be more descriptive to use 'PW20' as 'PackWeight for 20 Degrees'. Providing the minimum temp for your kit is really the better way to compare weights.

Comparing a pack weight of 11 pounds for 20 degrees to a pack weight of 11 lbs for 60 degrees is an unusual comparison. The current convention of just mentioning a pack weight lacks context. The context is important. I think.

I mean, people like to mention 'but that includes a bear can' or etc… Why not account for temp in a direct way? Unlike bear cans, temp affects everyone :^)

I don't think 'mountain' or 'winter' or 'summer' really tell much either. Not everyone's mountains and winter are the same. Some summers have overnight lows in the 40's or less. Temp. PW40.

Too hard to include typical winds and dry v. wet cold.

"I disagree, MB. I am involved with a "lightweight backpacking" meet-up group that used to meet at the local REI conference room. Over 80% of the attendees routinely carried over 40# packs (that's why they attended our meetings, to learn how they could lighten their loads). The two of us that organized this group tend to carry around 20-25#, depending on the trip length, with base weights of 12-15#. We think of ourselves as "lightweight backpackers." 25# isn't all that heavy in my mind, but 30# is."

I do believe, 25 was referenced in the context of being a base weight, which would typically put someone at about 35-40 lbs. Thats heavy to me.

I see, I thought 25# referred to total pack weight. Yes, a 25# base weight would be quite an undesirable load (unless that included a case of beer).

"Yes, a 25# base weight would be quite an undesirable load (unless that included a case of beer)."

Or, you know, something made of latex…..

Ummmmm, never mind.

Could we see a full list of stuff you take with you Eric? I'm trying to account for all the weight you carry that's not listed. Weights not needed, just a list would be fine.

Ever notice that anyone going slower than you is an idiot, but anyone going faster is a maniac?

George Carlin

I've hesitated to call myself an "ultralight" backpacker because some folks just assume that means certain things. For example: I don't cut off the end of my toothbrush. I use an REI tooth brush that weighs an ounce. I don't sleep in a tarp, but I do sleep in a tent that weighs less than a pound (and provides full bug protection). I used to sleep on closed cell foam, now I sleep on an inflatable mattress that is really thick and warm and sits on top of thin closed cell foam. I sleep in a down sleeping bag (not a quilt). It isn't even the lightest down, but I like the stretchy design (made by Montbell). My pack has a frame.

I could go on, but you get the idea. The thing is, my pack and everything in it (not counting food) weighs about ten pounds. So, I guess I am ultralight backpacker after all (more or less).

But numbers don't tell the whole story. A lot of it is knowledge. I've weighed every single item that I carry. I've compared it to other items. I may not make the lightest choice, but I know the trade-offs. To me, that defines ultralight. Or maybe we just need a better term, like being "weight aware". Not too catchy, but that is the big difference between myself and lots of the backpackers I hike with. I constantly think about an item and whether it makes sense to replace it (with another item or some other system). A lot of the backpackers I know have never weighed their gear. They have never really questioned the items they carry, or try to leverage the information that is out there to reduce their pack weight. I may carry a few heavy items, as does Eric, but we know what we are doing. Or at least, we try to know. :)

I have endured a significant dent in my wallet over the last year as I made the decision to jettison most everything I owned for backpacking( some of it dating back to the early 70's) to embrace the light weight approach as I get back into backpacking again. While the UL philosophy is something I embrace, at the end of the day I made choices to accomodate luxuries in a few areas to ensure my trips would not be spoiled by foregoing comfort and convenience.

I found I have developed a gear list with at least three different BPW's one for the fair weather summer weekend trip, a similar fall trip, and one for a longer duration trip where I need to be ready for differing weather.

My summer BPW is very capable of being sub 10 lb, largly due to less clothing and a lighter tent ( Hexamid solo).

My fall BPW varies between 12.5-13.5 lbs and includes more clothes and a heavier tent.

Some luxuries I am happy to keep in the bag:

Jetboil Ti – just want simplicity at the end of the day
Camp shoes – Saucony Hattori – very comfortable at day's end, and lets my trail runners get a rest.
Mp3 player – love the sound of nature, but love my tunes as well
Copper Spur Ul1 tent – love the room, especially when I bring the dog.

So I end up at around 15 lbs all in on a summer weekend and under 18 in the fall. A 5 day trip puts me at around 25 lbs with food and water. BTW all my clothes are XL, which does add to the BPW.

Back in the day when I lugged a big external frame nylon( pre ripstop) pack, steel canteen and even a camp axe, we thought we were lightweight backpackers compared to the guys with the canvas WWII rucksacks loaded with everything made of flannel and canvas (their tent poles were wood for God's sake).

I do not see me trying to get my load down any further, unless they come out with some tent or bag made with unobtanium that does not require a second mortgage to afford. I feel pretty good walking in the woods with the load I carry now. HYOH and PYOP.

Ken,

I'll add to my list above. See my 1st post for the total list.

P.S. @ Ross B.
So you're proposing a backpacking corollary to Carlin's driving observation? ;o)

"Ever notice that anyone carrying a heavier load than you is an idiot and anyone carrying a lighter load is a maniac?"

Hee, hee, well, yes, I have. Good point Ross. Nobody said it better than Carlin.

Maybe I need a bumper sticker with the original Carlin quote.

I guess I fall into this. I've never claimed to be UL, just not BPH. Fully loaded with all consumables I'm between 23 and 28 lbs depending on if I have to take my bear can. It still beats the heck out of when I used to carry a 50 lb pack, but it's still heavy enough that after a day of hiking I'm glad to get the pack off my back.

My gear is straight-up nuts.

My shelter is an UL hammock, the whole shebang weighs less than a pound.

BUT

The bag I carry it in is a 3.5lb Kelty external Frame, because nothing else is as comfortable.

BUT

I wear big old hiking boots because I've had too many foot surgeries for anything less.

BUT

I carry a 3.5lb EMS Synthetic 20º bag because I can't afford a $400 WM down bag. Maybe around Christmas…

So, some of my stuff is pretty SUL, and some of it is straight-up HEAVY. It works, though. I go in the woods and camp. What else is there? :)

Yoda has spoken ;-)

Edit: only fooling.

Happy you are, ultralite your are not :)

"I've hesitated to call myself an "ultralight" backpacker because some folks just assume that means certain things. For example: I don't cut off the end of my toothbrush. I use an REI tooth brush that weighs an ounce. I don't sleep in a tarp, but I do sleep in a tent that weighs less than a pound (and provides full bug protection). I used to sleep on closed cell foam, now I sleep on an inflatable mattress that is really thick and warm and sits on top of thin closed cell foam. I sleep in a down sleeping bag (not a quilt). It isn't even the lightest down, but I like the stretchy design (made by Montbell). My pack has a frame.

I could go on, but you get the idea. The thing is, my pack and everything in it (not counting food) weighs about ten pounds. So, I guess I am ultralight backpacker after all (more or less).

But numbers don't tell the whole story. A lot of it is knowledge. I've weighed every single item that I carry. I've compared it to other items. I may not make the lightest choice, but I know the trade-offs. To me, that defines ultralight. Or maybe we just need a better term, like being "weight aware". Not too catchy, but that is the big difference between myself and lots of the backpackers I hike with. I constantly think about an item and whether it makes sense to replace it (with another item or some other system). A lot of the backpackers I know have never weighed their gear. They have never really questioned the items they carry, or try to leverage the information that is out there to reduce their pack weight. I may carry a few heavy items, as does Eric, but we know what we are doing. Or at least, we try to know. :)"

Ross,
I'm in the same camp as you. I went really light then backed off a bit because I overshot the optimum target. My base now for three season runs about 8 lbs and I have fully enclosed tent, inflatable mat, 20deg down quilt and a completely optimized pack. But few choices I make anymore are about weight. As I have gained more experience I have a new goal. I want as much of my gear to be used year round, not replaced with other items. I also like your term "weight aware"' hope you don't mind if I steal it!

Someone mentioned about comfort.

I went from 20kg base weight to 6.4kg and I am actually taking more satuff now!! The only thing that I dropped in comfort is the BIG blow up bed (probably weighed 3kg on it's own). Safety is improved with rope, better first aid gear and other things. Feel safer, feel just as much comfort and am lighter. Though I keep finding lighter stuff and usually at next to no cost I am not interested in gaiming at SUL gear…I love my ULA Circuit pack, my TT Rainbow shelter, Exped mat and WM Megalite bag. Those items alone weigh 4.5kg but they are solid and I will 'live' through most weather and occasion our trips throw at us.

I came into the UL world via bike touring. I had my a$$ handed to me on a rather strenuous solo bike tour on the back dirt roads and trails of W.Va. So I focused on bulk. Less bulk meant I did not need the heavy racks, panniers or trailers. This also reduced my weight significantly. The weight was reduce enough to entice me back to the world of backpacking. So I thank all of you for showing me the "light"(get it;). Amazing how easy it is to hike with light enough gear. In fact my gear weighs less than my daily bike commuting crap.

I really don't know my weight but it is light enough:
hexamid tarp/tent: prefer no tent and use this if it rains
bivy sack: great to see the stars
lite sleep bag: I think it is called the kilo(REI) good to 40F or lower if I bring some extra clothes. Has seen frost with no ill effects to me.
klymit X wave pad: newest purchase and very comfy
jetboil: easy peasy
All of this fits easily in a single dry bag along with food. Now that I am back to backpacking I am the hunt for a BP. I too am looking at the Exos. Thinking the 46 over the 58 if I can get a bear can into it. Still working on that part.

Thanks again, LE4M Charlie

I'm the one who said 25 lbs, which was roughly the total pack weight for an overnighter on the coast. I just got back from three days/two nights in the Sierra, with a bear can, a larger shelter, and some stuff for my dog, total pack weight 32lbs. I don't think I had a lot of extraneous stuff, but my big 3 are pretty heavy. I guess I'll go with "weight-aware" rather than KSL.