Evaluating what stoves to use for what lengths of trips

Actually, it isn't even 1/3.

Wikopedia has the heat values for common fuels.

Butane is listed, but not n-Butane, one of the isomeres.

Anyway: (Note: all values are appriximate)
Methanol is 9800BTU/lb
Ethanol is 12800BTU/lb
Butane is 20900BTU/lb
A typical alcohol fuel is SLX. It's about 50/50 so I will just average the heat values. This is rough and could be off a bit…as much as 50BTU.
For the Alcohol Fuel: 11300BTU/lb.
For Canister fuels(butane): 20900BTU/lb
For carrying a usable quantitity, most use a small plastic bottle (8floz)that weighs an ounce.
For carrying a canister, it is the can. It weighs about 3.3oz (it varies by manufacturor up to about 3.8oz.) So for 100g of fuel we have about 94gm of container. So,by simple proportions, we have about 53% of the total weight as fuel.
Multiplying .53 * 20900BTU/lb gives us the total heat value: 11077BTU/lb after adding in canister weight.
After adding in the one ounce bottle for 8oz of alcohol (or 1 ninth of the total weight, we have 90% * 11300BTU/lb or about 10700.
The difference is only 377BTU/lb.

Comparing to canisters (377/11077) or about 4%. Not the 1/3 you had posted.

Roughly speaking, the carry difference is only a bit under 10%, not 33.3% as you stated.

The most important aspects on alcohol to me are:

1) carry only what I need
2) simply and easily, visually see how much fuel I have
3) Silent operation

" 3) Silent operation "

The leak is silent also.

–B.G.–

"The leak is silent also."

Not to mention it is hard to see the flame and spills can happen easily with some alcohol stoves. Esbit doesn't require a container, other than a large Ziploc bag. Doesn't spill. Not sure of the weight of Esbit versus Alcohol, but it might be less per boil. Only problem with Esbit versus Alcohol on a long trip is availability. A Graham Cracker Esbit stove weighs less than an alcohol stove.

Maybe Harold can add Esbit to his chart.

http://zenstoves.net/Fuels.htm#FuelComparisons

Zen Stoves is fairly good. It will take a full day to go through that site, though.
Note that it uses the lower heating values. Roughly the same proportions, though.

James, I'll add the zenstoves link, I forgot about them. The key however with contained energy is that that number, as I learned when testing stoves/fuel extensively, then finally rereading the sgt rock stuff on testing/results, is almost but not completely irrelevant, because what actually matters is the efficiency of the cook system. As you can see in this thread, due to some unknown user/operator error the OP is using far more alcohol than he should be using.

The alcohol fuel consumption numbers I'm citing are quite precise, measured, reproducible, and fairly heavily tested, and include moving air because I use a fan. I'm going along with the numbers cited for canister stoves because I believe people know when they get 12 2 cup boils out of 1 100 gm net canister, that's easy to track, so that gives 8 gm. I've also seen routine reports of 10gm boils with canister stoves, and I know that in theory you can get better efficiency. Ethanol gives a 100% efficiency of about 7gm / 2 cup boil, with best ever reported 10gm, I can duplicate and repeat 12 gm easily, so that's the number I use. For faster boils, you drop efficiency but sometimes speed matters more, yet as you can see from the chart, you still basically never carry more weight except the first day(s) of > 12 day trips.

Nick, if you provide me with true esbit numbers for a measured 70F water start true measured 2 cup boil I will update the chart. Obviously, as you note, there will only be the stove/screen weight, and toss on a ziplock bag to keep it fair. Keep in mind I am using mid weight setups, so be fair in the stove/screen weight, if yours is the lightest possible, that only competes with an MB type UL alcohol setup, so give the weights of a decent screen at 15gm and a reasonably robust stove. The trick though I believe with esbit, correct me if I am wrong, is that you will usually pick either an amount of water to boil that works with one or two of the tabs, or you will break a tab in half, or something. To be fair it has to be 2 cups, and then note the weight of each tab, and how many you use for the boil, that's what you would use in the field. Obviously esbit is easy to cite efficiencies for since the only weight is the fuel. I'd use for the middle case that type of stove that keeps in the liquified esbit as it burns as the middle case stove myself since that is clearly efficient but not strange.

While you can measure water temp, it's not truly necessary, just burn what you need to raise a rolling boil, that's close enough to 212 to not matter. If you post the results here I will update the chart. I will also update using my whisperlight because I believe the numbers are way off for that too.

Now that I have all the night 1 to 13 rows, it's fairly easy to update the chart, but do make sure your data is not total best case, be realistic since this is about what you carry, not what happens in your kitchen.

MB, I agree with your 3 pluses, majorly. Another thing I'd add to that is the ability to also gauge quite accurately extra fuel requirements. If I assign 1oz per day of consumption, that is precisely what I will use, and if the water does not fully boil, that's fine, it's hot enough. There's no way you can get that accuracy with gas, it's just going to be a guess each time, though experience certainly would show over time roughly what you can expect, but you will not know for certain. I could see the last days of a long trip being quite nerve wracking, heh heh.

While I am ordering a canister stove to further test, can anyone here do a 30 minute simmer test on a gas stove and let me know how much fuel that consumed by weight? I believe that you can basically toss your gas stove out the window once you start simmering, like a whisperlight, in comparison to alcohol, but I'd like to be sure.

I can add another table with simmer data, that would be useful, but do make sure to actually weigh the fuel. esbit clearly cannot simmer unless there is some setup I haven't seen that does permit that, maybe there is.

BobG, I have in fact spilled alcohol by accident on a trip, but that was due to a stupid design error I had made, I had inserted an o ring onto the bottle to 'prevent leaks', not realizing that created a gap where if you did not jam the top on super tight, it would leak, and it did, but that exposed the MB noted advantage, I was able to note how much fuel I had left, and then use that much per meal for the rest of the trip. You'll note in the charts that you end with zero fuel at the end of the trip.

In real world use of course I'd bring an ounce or two extra, something you cannot do with canisters, which is another advantage, say 6 days, you want a cup of hot tea in the evening? no problem, add 6 gm per day fuel, or a bit less.

Nick, I'll trust any results/weights/consumption you give me, but I have found the stuff online is not very reliable, in fact, some of it seems completely removed from reality, so I'll wait for your results to add that. Remember, stove/stand/screen weight plus storage bag, then tabs/weight of esbit per day. If the tabs include packaging include that weight to be fair.

MB, by the way, it's irrelevant what pot is used in this chart, because you can assume it to be a constant, however, you are also totally right to note that no high heat gas system can use a true UL pot because it will destroy it, so there is a level of UL that only esbit and alcohol can reach. I'm not going to cite that however because it would not be fair (since the system then would include the pot weight, and the pot weight used is not knowable in any chart), I am not counting the pot weight in these systems because you can more or less exchange those, with the exception of white gas, that requires a wide pot, a penny type side jet too really benefits from a wide pot as well. Personally I would not use a plastic lined aluminum beer can for a pot, but that's just my personal feeling on that matter, I do also see the attraction. I'm just noting this because you had written that using a heavier pot invalidates using alcohol, it does not, basically you cannot go heavier than canister unless you go with a white gas whisperlight type setup, the pot does not matter.

There is one further variable of course, wide pot vs narrow pots, and that will matter on probably most of the systems listed, but it also depends on the stove type. I may test on that too but it's a fair amount of work to do it so I'll hold off for now.

It's also worth noting that if you reach the max efficiency possible with canister gas, the real comparison then has to be the max efficiency with alcohol, so those proportions will not change all that much, what would change is possibly the range you can go with a canister, ie, the number of nights, but if you also go more efficient on alcohol stove setup, that difference should not matter much.

at one time in bpl past of long ago, we had a chart .. no .. a matrix of data about this issue. it had weights, atomic mass, use rates of boil, a zipstove, ambient temperature of the environment, and it all corrilated to How Long it was going to take for a given system to pay back itself. this electronic document was an edifice to Clear Thinking. it was a thing of analistic beauty. and it was just about useless too. because it did not include the Coolness Factor, a figure vastly more important than any lack of weight ever could be.

ie : how can we ever rate the rush of burning powdered coal found on an arctic gravel bar in a bushbddy. (well, you could rate it -$129, because it ruined my BB)

v.

Peter, it would not be fair to include the coolness factor, that simply would raise the bar too high against all white gas and canister products. I mean, you walk into camp, whip out your ion, set it up, in a few seconds, fill it, light it, and sit back, content, looking up at the stars, or early morning sunbeams piercing the fog that will lift in a few minutes, if it's breakfast.

Another camper wanders by, and cannot help but wonder why you are sitting in front a of a silent screen with a pot on it, which then after a while starts to bubble merrily, but silently. The camper asks, where did you get that? and you reply, somewhat nonchalantly, I made it.

So best to leave the coolness factor out I think, otherwise the tests simply would be too skewed towards the alcohol setups. I'm trying to be as fair as I can possibly be here, to avoid bias and other factors.

I do think its fair to include the weight of a UL pot, because the difference is equal to 4 days fuel for me, not inconsequential.

I have never had an alcohol leak, but I primarily use flip-top nalgene bottles. I dont suffer any noticeable loss of alcohol stored in it in a closet for months either so its fairly vapor tight. If I use a PET bottle to carry extra fuel, I tape the lid on with a wrap of electical tape.

Of course I do try to keep it always stored upright in my pack, just in case. No sense tempting fate.

My alcohol stove (tealight cup) , weighs 0.07 oz. I dont know of anything lighter. Yep, that is LESS than the graham cracker at 0.1 oz.

I dont need to see flame, I know where it is. Its in the cup. BTW you can see alcohol fine if its dark. If in doubt, just place palm above cup a few inches and feel for heat, its not rocket science.

I think you can get slightly better efficiency with esbit than 0.4 oz alcohol boils for 2 cups, its obviously a hotter flame and boils slightly faster. I have gotten about 0.3X oz I recall. But saving the little fuzzy bits, and trying to reuse is kind of messy. Always a tradeoff. Some of the weight that is left may not qualify as fuel anymore.

MB, you can’t include it because it’s not fair, as I noted, there is no canister/white gas setup that will support that pot weight, and the pot weight is constant in any case. It is worth noting the full weight of the basic cookset however, at a minimum, maybe I’ll add some tables for that, but that won’t change consumption weights/carry weights for fuel, so that would make a decent table on its own.

Fuel Consumption / Carry weight table

Pots differ in size and capacity, by not including the pot weight you allow for that, but it is certainly worth noting and also is correct that you cannot get as light as a fully UL beer can cook pot, but to me that’s not a pot, I can’t eat out of it or cook in it, so it doesn’t have the same functionality.

With freezer bag cooking, by the way, you must include the full carry weight of the freezer bags as well, since that is an integral part of the cook system.

However, this is a fringe area, and doesn’t impact the efficiency of the boil beyond the actual differences in pot/stove setup efficiencies, which are real ( could improve the alcohol numbers for wide pots, for example, my tests are all with narrow pots), the fact remains that alcohol is virtually always lighter, and it makes no difference what pot is used to make that determination. The pot weight is a constant, as is the stove etc weight, so you simply add/subtract that weight to the listed weights and there you have it.

But I am also glad you brought that point up, because it shows that there is a category below, ie, less than, in weight, all the listed categories, that only esbit/alcohol can support, let’s call that a SUL category. ie, There are only esbit/alcohol SUL setups (and wood, of course). That’s a fair thing to note. But don’t forget the freezer bags in the weight.

While this is, as Peter noted nicely, a bit anal, the fact is, trying to do something resembling science, with empirically verifiable results, is always boring in the end, it requires a lot of tedious data collection etc. Some of the tables I found online, including from bpl, are so far removed from reality that I didn’t even link to them, whatever they were measuring, they did it wrong. For canister results, the info online is pretty easy to confirm, because it’s so easy to weigh/setup a canister, you buy the burner and the canister light it, boil, weight. However, Ryan Jordan, in a review of I think a fire maple UL burner, noted clearly that wind is a huge factor, just as it is with alcohol, so people who try to claim some advantage re canisters and wind are kind of cherry picking the case. I tend to trust Ryan’s findings in general, so I won’t question those. Makes sense afterall. I suspect the whisperlight however has a powerful enough flame and a good enough wind screen to not have to worry as much about wind, I know I cannot remember ever having even given wind issues a thought when I used xgk/whisperlight, nowhere I ever used it, in any climate, and I was in pretty bad weather with that thing.

I’m going to test white gas next, because I suspect that white gas may actually be the lightest weight on a super long trip, not positive, but it may be, but we’re talking very very long, 3, 4 weeks. Well, actually, because I have it sitting here, heh. But again, only on the first days. I also just want to see what it does if I treat the testing like any other weight/efficiency testing, full boil, stop, weigh consumption.

Harald, thanks for the work on the chart.
So all of this seems predicated on solo use. Am I right? Curious to see how things look for two, with double the fuel usage per day, and assuming a single larger pot to accommodate boiling 1 qt at a time.

Here is one from 2006

https://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/comparative_fuel_efficiency_and_weight_of_stoves_pt1.html#.Uf1Q3BanqDY

Paul, one of the things I had to painfully relearn from high school chemistry is that the energy required to raise x weight of water y degrees F is a constant once you calculate the efficiency of the stove/fuel type/screen/pot setup. So, if .8gm SLX raises 2 cups of water 10F, which is about what it does, it makes no difference what the starting temp of the water is, for example, as long as it's liquid. So if you are boiling 4 cups, it's going to take 1.6gm SLX to raise that water 10F. The issue however then will be boil times, it's just going to take a long time to boil it (20min or so), and I think that's one reason people go with gas in that case.

If you go less efficient, like a side jet burner type stove, or a penny jet stove, or a variety of other types, then you need about 32 gm to boil 4 cups from 70F, and it will take about 12-15 min depending. I don't think I'd try to use an ION type efficient stove for non solo use, except for morning coffee or whatever with more than one person. But note that even with the less efficient category, you still do not exceed the first day carry weight using alcohol until the 22nd or so 2 cup boil.

This difference is part of the 'convenience' aspect of canister/white gas stoves, and it's certainly valid, but it has zero impact on the weight carried numbers of fuel, as with everything, you get to pick things, weight, convenience, speed, and picking one will nullify another.

However, I would suggest to people who have come up with fairly ridiculous stove efficiency numbers for their alcohol setup, like 3x more fuel required, or 1oz to boil 2 cups, that they take a look at their alcohol setup and either go out and support one of the fine stove / screen vendors out there, or figure out what they are doing wrong, to my eyes it's like me turning on the canister jet and letting it burn a few minutes before putting the pot on then complaining about its efficiency, or burning it in a high wind with no screen. As sgt rock told me, focus on the screen, not the stove, though the stove type does matter as well. Alcohol setups should be sold as a unit, and fitted to the pot diamater/height, that's I think the main reason cone setups get the efficiency, they are sold as one, same for the flat cat gear stuff.

Nice work Herald. Like many other hikers, I've noticed it's hard to beat the many advantages of alcohol stoves–

*Silent operation
*simple
* lightweight
*no stink (vs. Esbit)
*no residue (vs. Esbit)

About the only time canisters win the weight advantage is when snow melting is needed, for larger groups (>2) or more complex cooking (simmering, etc.).

Paul, also, yes, there should be tests on wide pots, because those always get better efficiencies. Because I prefer narrow pots, I have focused my testing on 10-11cm wide pots, which are 600 to 900 ml basically. I have a 1.3 L evernew though but I have a hard time motivating to set up the tests/screens for that because I never use it, but I know the efficiencies for alcohol will be at least 1 gm per 2 cup boils improved.

So while you will need more fuel for a 4cup boil, you should get better efficiency, but I believe that should apply to all stove types.

Now that I have the basic rows setup, it's not going to be too hard to add variations to them, ie, more rows per night. I'm tempted to pick up an msr pocket rocket or something like it too for testing, but the notion of trying to make a screen setup for that type of system does not at all thrill me, seems kind of convoluted to me. That's why I ordered a remote canister, that lets me test with real screens and optimal efficiency, just like with alcohol. There is about a 70gm weight penalty over top mounts there though, but to me that's not a big deal, I'll clearly never be bringing canister setups for the weight anyway.

Ken, yes, that's not terrible, but he's neglecting the stove screen in his tests for alcohol and remote canister, and the stove he used isn't I believe all that great, wasn't bpl selling the ion stove back then?

I think one major error people make with alcohol is neglecting the fitting / ventilation of their screens to the pot, ie, the notion you take a fancy feast can, then get some aluminum foil and punch some random holes in it with a random screen height isn't right, it works, but it's not how you get efficient setups in general.

Steve, the simmering ability of an ion or penny or probably most other types where the simmer ring has been developed as part of the system is beyond belief stunning, I literally could not believe it when I first saw the time/weight efficiencies. I will test this one day for dinner, but I believe you can cook 1/2 cup of uncooked brown rice using roughly 12 grams of alcohol, it should be close to that because you need roughly 6 to boil the 1 cup of water and 6 to simmer it 20 or so minutes, not sure on the smaller amount of water/fuel simmer time, I only tested 2 cups. In fact, I would suspect that even if you like canister stoves, you'd be well advised to bring a good alcohol stove with you for the simmering part of the meal.

I agree with your alcohol pluses, though personally I'm just not interested in getting fuel where I have to buy it by packages like esbit, particularly if it smells and leaves films of gunk, so I never really thought about using it, though I can see the convenience of it for sure. I would have listed the fiddle factor of a stove needing priming and little pieces, like the Penny, as a significant negative, but that's why I rediscovered the ion type, I was trying to get rid of the two main disadvantages of my alcohol stoves, fiddle to light etc, and setup, and the lower efficiencies I was getting. The ion type system is so absurdly easy to use and setup and light and refill and simmer with that in my opinion all those negatives were fixed, at which point what's left is something basically as easy to use and setup as a canister, easy to store, light, and truly simple. Sgt rock did a fantastic job when he did this research, and I do not understand why it's not a standard setup, no cone required, everything fits in the pot, super clean and simple. I'm sold, for solo use.

While the fuel usage may be linear the container weight as a percentage is not, with canister gas getting more efficient in that regard as the quantity of fuel gets larger (220gm canister, then 450 gm canister). So a canister stove gains by that if the usage per day goes up, while an alcohol setup doesn't since the container weight is so low to begin with.

Re white gas for very long trips – I have done some analysis and testing of the stoves I own with the intent of finding the lightest setup for spring snowcamping trips of 8 or 9 days. What I came up with was that for my usage, canister and white gas would be about the same – within a few grams at both the start and the end of the trip. The key is being able to carry white gas in a plastic bottle, so that as the trip gets longer the total fuel/container weight per BTU drops, while with canisters the ratio cannot get better than what you get with a 450gm canister. Of course, if I had one of Roger Caffin's nice remote canister stoves that would take the lead, but it would only be by a couple ounces, and at some point the white gas stove (Simmerlite)might still catch up.

Just as a data point, what I came up with for snow camping fuel usage, by tracking what I use on trips, is that if I have to melt snow it takes me twice as much gas as if I don't. My average WG usage per day for two people melting at both dinner and breakfast is 124 gms. I also found that as a simulation of that, bringing 12 cups of 50 deg water to a boil is pretty equal to a meal for two.

> at some point the white gas stove (Simmerlite) might still catch up.
Unlikely.
White gas stoves are almost always heavier than even remote canister stoves these days, and in general I find one uses about 50% more white gas than propane/butane. Reasons are that priming a white gas stove takes a lot more fuel, and there is always the temptation to leave a white gas stove running between uses to avoid having to prime it again. Oh yes – the wqhite gas tank and pump has considerable weight too.

Oh well, I dare say one could find a special case at the transition between canisters where a carefully measured amount of white gas works out close to equal. Contrived.

Dinosaur technology.

Cheers

I did one test, just to see, for old time's sake, 1.3 L evernew, whisperlite.

I don't know if the term 'dinosaur' is applicable, I took some many year old fuel, attached everything, fired it up, and water boiled in 3.25 minutes. I hadn't used this stove in probably 3 years beyond one test start a few years ago. Because this stove allows room for user error, obvious from reading the instances where people manage to blow these up, which is something I have no idea how to do, you have to really overpump it to stress it, but if you let in that type of room for user error, you will get user error, along with, like any mechanical device, including canister stoves, mechanical errors and failures, another area alcohol does very well, no moving parts. That will have to change in the future, we need an alcohol stove with a true on/off switch for fire danger issues.

Consumption was not good for this test, 70F start, 14.5 gm boiled 2 cups. For all I know I have the wrong nozzle jet adapter on it, I think this is the international version, not sure, I have both. I also probably used a touch too much priming quantity.

But the power is excellent, it was breezy outside for this test and I could see no loss of flame power at all. The old bpl test showed simmerlight at 11gm, but I did not spend much time on the test, and it was windy. I believe with practice you can optimize the fuel consumption by priming less, if I remember right, not sure.

However, white gas has the same advantage as alcohol, you can take what you need, exactly, plus it's very fast, and you are not bound to finitely sized heavy canisters. Simmers poorly in whisperlight, but not as badly as in xgk.

I'd say the white gas advantages are the same as always, takes basically any fuel, you can determine how much to bring, etc, incredibly strong flame, no cold issues I am aware of, virtually wind proof. But it's heavy, and in the context of this thread, very inefficient. Efficiency improves however the longer you burn it since you only prime it once. The start up wastes a fair amount of fuel.

I believe a better area to test whisperlight against canister stoves is large quantity boils, 4 to 8 cups, particularly snow etc.

I agree, many alcohol stoves are too fiddly.

If it needs to be primed, it falls into that category to me.

Its my opinion that alcohol stoves are a lot like fishing lures.

They are made not to catch fish, but to catch fisherman.

Its not that complicated.

"Dinosaur technology"

I'm another who doesn't quite agree with that characterization.

For one thing, once you have really learned how to do it, the whole priming/flare up problem becomes tiny. I got to the point where I knew exactly how many pump strokes to do and how much to turn the valve and for how many seconds, and I got the priming fuel usage down to a minimum. That was on a high mountain ascent where we were completely tent-bound for all snow melting and cooking for about eleven days.

Another factor that hasn't really been discussed too much is fuel cost. If you are doing lots of snow melting and cooking for multiple mouths, you will go through a lot of fuel. At least for me, white gasoline (Coleman fuel) is cheaper than the alternatives for a given amount of heat.

Now, of course you can beat the cost by burning wood or something. However, for any high mountain trip in winter, I will always grab one of my white gas stoves.

–B.G.–

Bob, agree, you've done a lot of winter backpacking from what I've read from you here, and what you say makes me think the real test here would be: stoves taken into snow, outside temp cold, cold ground, melting snow as main task. That would expose the shortcomings of various canister setups, for example. Whisperlight has no shortcomings in terms of function that I am aware of, just the weight, that's why I always used those stoves in the past. In a sense, if MSR or someone else had focused more on efficiency of boils, they should have gotten the 2 cup boils down to 8gm fairly easily I believe, gasoline holds a lot of energy, and I'd say the whisperlight test I just did got no better than about 30% efficiency, maybe 25%.

The whisperlight isn't going to compete with any of the methods so far discussed in normal weather backpacking, but then again, nobody is generally claiming that you can melt snow well with alcohol either, so it may just be different tools there for different situations.

A table of that type of cold weather snow melting data would be interesting, but something tells me that when you're out in the cold trying to get some snow melted, weighing things carefully is probably not super high on the list of priorities, heh heh. That's a place where kitchen or workshop testing just does not cut it, you have to do it in the real weather with real snow etc. I'll leave that alone because that's something best done if you live in a very cold climate and can do real outside testing in snow/cold.

[added]However, given that many people do use whisperlights, I will add the numbers to my main table so they can see the differences for themselves, most people here know this already, but I know I never gave it a thought in the past.

These numbers are great!

Sure the numbers posted by many people will pan out in the real world vs a back yard test or an Excel spreadsheet, :D

bob reminds me that you do have to practice a touch with white gas stoves, test 2 yielded 12 gm boil, with about 1 minute plus continuation of boil after shutoff as the gas in the tubes continued to burn, so you could get even better efficiency by turning off the stove right before it fully boils. I also kept the flow knob set quite close to closed, but open enough for full burn, about 1 turn or so.

So I'll call it a 12 gm boil for now, I was more careful priming it too. That accords well with the old bpl white gas numbers of 11 gm boil too.

I'll add this to the table, in all these cases, I want to be fair to each stove type, and present a decent middle case.

"gasoline holds a lot of energy"

Yes, and the negative people around here will claim that they are dangerous as a result. I hear that, but that is purely a user-training issue. Some of us got our feet wet with white gas stoves 35 years ago, so we have long since gotten past the beginner stage.

I would have to take an inventory now, but at one point in time I had about six MSR stoves, mostly model GK, XGK, or XGK-II. I've never owned a Whisperlight, although most of my friends have them. I think I have one new Simmerlight.

If we were going out to do a week-long ski camping trip, we would not consider taking stoves other than white gas type.

When we did one high altitude climb, the 14-member expedition was divided up into tent/cooking teams of two or three. Every one of the teams was using a white gas stove. Most, but not all, of the other expeditions were using white gas stoves as well.

–B.G.–