enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept.

Hey Tim,

I was thinking you could expand your customer base outside backpackers to include climbers/mountaineers. As you are probably aware, this group (and many hikers) often carry a bivy with the elephant foot (aka 3 quarter bag, half bag) combo with their puffy jackets. Aside from MYOG or chopping up your favorite bag, there are very limited places to get a light weight 3 quarter bag/quilt. Few large brands may sell one, but the weight/warmth/custom doesnt compete with cottage. As far as I know, the only cottage that makes these are Feathered friends and Nunatak. FF has the vireo, at a pound, completely sewn up, with differential fill. Nunatak has the Arc AT half quilt, something like 9 oz for 40*F.

The best part about getting into this market is that all you would have to do is advertise, you already make them. It seems your Rev(x) Jr. line would be a perfect candidate for 3 quarter mountaineering quilts. Yeah they are narrow for adults at something like 46", but the people buying these arent looking for the luxury of having extra material at the chest. I think you should include a 3 quarter quilt page in your website, or at least include this idea in the product descriptions of your products (especially Jr. line). Just mentioning it could get people to see its potential and to encourage "outside-the-box" thinking when selecting your sleep system.

And for the new Enigma, a 3 quarter version could be a defining piece to its puzzle. I dont even want to guess how low this weight would be.

– Greg

Brooks Range makes a 1/2 bag product.

It is called an Elephant Foot and 'Mountaineering' is the second part of the company name. Exactly as you said things should be :^)

I thought 'elephant foot' was just their name. I didn't realise it is also a more general name. I also didn't know it is a type of bag favored by climbers. Now the BR product name makes more sense to me.

Still wonder where the name came from…

I was thinking… I've changed my mind a little.

I feel you should have 5 different styles. I'm going to think like Apple does on this. I value there business model as it works quite well.

1. RevX
2. EnigmaX
3. Rev
4. Enigma
5. Epiphany

RevX like the Ipad is a cheaper computer that gets the job done.
Will be limited on features stuck as 750 fill down and heavier fabric.

EnigmaX should be in between the price of the RevX and Rev.
Like RevX, but with your more special design.

Rev like Apples higher end computer are limited in modifications.
This will come with 850Down standard and have the option for 900 fill or water resistant 850.

Enigma
Like Rev, but with your sewn foot box.

Epiphany will be like Apple's Mac Pro. Their top of the line computer.
This will use 900 fill down standard with .34oz Cuban Fiber, Seam sealing can be an option.

Not too sure on prices. I feel there should be a larger price gap between 40 and 0f quilts.
$175-$250 for new RevX
$200-$275 for EnigmaX
$225-$325 for Rev
$250-$350 for Enigma
$300-400 for Epiphany

Not really sure on prices since I don't know your material costs and such, but I feel you should have the Epipany as an option for those few extreme people.

What do you think?

ah yes, I forgot about brooks range. I havent seen this bag before. I cant lie, it does look incredibly comfortable at 25*.

And I am not sure where the term elephant foot came from. I assume its from the europeans and the early bivouac days in the alps. I think the reason why they are more popular with climbers versus hikers is because a heavy pack has a different level of liability for climbers, they all have to go UL whereas hikers dont. And since climbers almost always carry a puffy jacket due to their exposure, it makes sense to chop their bags into elephant feet.

So I am still convinced Tim's JR line-up is a sleeper in the elephant foot world. No pun intended. I'm thinking about purchasing the Prodigy X JR, just to test this out. (And I wonder if any SUL'ers here have already done this?) While I dont bivy on mountains (yet), i may loan it to some friends that do.

I think climbers got a different set of options available to them.

Sometimes I read 'go to bed or hop in the sleeping bag early if you are cold' and that implies to me the person is either moving and happy or stopped, chilled, and in the bag.

Sometimes climbers can't move and can't get in the bag (sounds like you know this). So the heavier jackets you mention. I don't climb but I take pictures and, for me, that also involves time at rest. Granted, I /can/ get up and move but I am usually pretty stationary.

So, I tend to try and have stuff with me that makes me comfortable at rest. I don't rely on 'keep moving' strategy. If I do it right, the sleeping bag/quilt/foot only needs to be warm enough to offset metabolism slowing during sleep and temp drop at night…

I'm sort of an unconventional thinker at times, but I have thought about a hybrid quilt before especially for longer trips where rain and humidity will be part of the equation sometimes. A layer of thin Apex on the bottom with some down on top. That way if on a longer trip you could have some weight and packing savings (and cost), but if you get into some "oh shite" situations at least you have the Apex to rely on, some reliable warmth is better than very, very little which is what happens when down gets too wet. Course as a manufacturer, such a product might be a big pain to implement especially since the nice thing about Apex is not sewing baffles.

Might be an interesting and "novel" product, but I'm not sure how it would sell in the mainstream since there seems to be definite down & synthetic camps and which tend to be somewhat polarized.

Could call it Apocalypse…

Justin D – I like that thought. Big Agnes has (or had) some products like that, not sure how well they sold. I was thinking about something along the same lines, but not a hybrid between down and synthetic, but instead a hybrid between synthetic and synthetic. 5 oz apex on the bottom half of the quilt, and 2.5 oz on the top half. Inspired from the differential down fill of Feathered Friends Vireo.

If you put it that way Gregory, we're talking about rather different things.. BTW why more Apex on the bottom half? Wouldn't it be better reversed since its our core which its better to keep warmer?

Well usually people carry more insulation for their core versus their legs, so having the thicker Apex on the bottom would even things out. This is basically a compromise to the elephants foot, which doesnt have any top half above somewhere along the chest. And yeah i guess these hybrids are way different then yours. I wonder about going all synthetic bottom, all down top… vise versa? These monstrosities are probably best left to the MYOG crowd.

That is true, does make sense now that you explained it. Does take a lot for my legs to get cold if I'm wearing some kind of leggings to begin with.

Monstrosities..haha, sure. I made something like that but it hasn't been cold enough to try yet.

Hello all,

I don't have the new site done nor is the Enigma all set to go but I ran out of my lower cost 850 fill so today I had to change the site to reflect the new cost increase in the Revelation (less than $20 on avg) and the use of the 750 duck down on the RevelationX (and Revolt/RevoltX and Jrs) The X prices have come down a little on the 20* and warmer reflecting the lower down cost.

To soften this change some I'd like to offer $15 off any stock quilt through the end of the month. Plus the free shipping they already qualify for. Use Code "PRICES FALL"

All the stock RevelationX quilts will ship with the new 750 Duck Down from today on. We are having high order volumes but should still be able to ship these by the end of the week.

-Tim

Tim, just curious if you have ever thought about making a hybrid quilt like i mentioned earlier, with some apex on one side and some down on the other?

i Haven't put much thought toward it at this point. Hoping to get into winter and work on so new designs. Might even happen this year, but until them I am slammed with new models, updates, fabric sourcing and looking for a new space. No time for more new stuff right now. I'll have to check out your ides though when i get a chance

-Tim

I've made a hybrid with the scree insulation thru-hiker used to sell.
I used a 40" width of the scree along the main body.
Quit fit is 55" wide and fits 6' with 20d fabric and 9 ounces of 800 down.
I sewed the baffles to the scree and the inner fabric, so the outer fabric was seam free for sleeping in mist and foggy conditions.

I have a simlar 9 ounce filled quilt that came in at 15 ounces.
The hybrid came in a 26 ounces. It's between 5-10 degrees warmer than the other quilt, and works great in wet condiions, however, it's just not worth it's weight.

I can bring my 3 ounce bivy and stay just as warm and dry.
It would be a great Seatle quitl for tarping but still heavy.

Thank you for the feedback Aaron.

I was thinking more like one layer of 2.5 or 4 oz/sq-yd Apex combined with down, and for something like 20 to 40 degree quilts. Shouldn't be that much heavier than a full down quilt (well a 20 degree quilt with 4oz Apex and rest down will be to some extent). Definitely more noticeably bulkier though.

I think this alternative option would be good for people doing extended hikes, especially at places like the AT where wetness and high humidity are often, but not always experienced.

Looking at your website I think you've made the right choice, Tim. Your RevX is possibly even better value now, and for those who want to pay the extra 100 dollars to save 100 grams the Revelation is still good as ever. You might lose a little interest in the RevX because of the slight stigma against duck down and sub-800 loft but I think it's a better match with the 30D seconds. The people who balk at the 750 duck down are the ones who will be able to rationalise buying a Revelation. ;)

Very interested in one of your RevXs. Sent you an email through your site. website states 3-4 delivery time, does this include in stock items? Western trip in planning stages for mid October departure. Will a quilt make it to me by 10/9?? Thanks

3-4 weeks delivery time…sorry

Quilts from the instock page will ship by sat. Mon at the latest. Its only that long as the 750 is in transit and not here yet.

-Tim

Tim, when do you think you might have the enigma ready to go?

Because of course I need a new quilt. Obviously.

Shooting for oct. Some early templates are getting cut this week so I can do staff training. Fabric will be here in 2 weeks, down is here. Just need to do the training and finalize the templates.

-Tim

What type of fabric will you use on the enigma?

Tim, I think that it would be a great idea to offer the REV X with a "downtek" option of 700 or the 850 downtek that you already have in stock with an appropriate increase in price based upon the fancier down. I think that many like me would like this option and some people (like me) have been holding off until you received the downtek. I would assume that this would not be much of a burden to you since you make most of your quilts based on individual orders and you already have the 850 downtek. Thoughts?

Enigma will be using a new 10d made just for me! More downproof yet still super soft and comfy!

I'm not sure about the downtek in the RevX. It costs 3 times what the 750 fill costs. I'll be thinking.

Okay, I could see a 2.5 ounce sewn thru quilt with 3-4 ounces of down added under the apex for a nice 40 degree quilt.

I'm surprised no one has done this yet, however I think the down would be suspended in a permanent clomp and wold loft up all that well under the synthetic layer.