Does This Pack Fit?

“Funny, my Dads old Kelty external frame had load lifters to account for the non adjustable frame. Of course, that was in 1964. When did internal frame packs hit the market?”

You may want to read this. Kelty Packs

All the brochure pictures were from the early 60’s — probably 1963. I grew up with Kelty packs and don’t remember any kind of load lifters available from Kelty or the after market. And there were several companies that made add-on stuff for Kelty packs, especially A16. But it is possible someone added load lifters.

The Trailwise external packs had what looked like load lifters, these were adjustable shoulder straps that attached to cross frame. This was the only attachment for the top of the straps.

Early Coleman Peak 1 packs with the plastic frames DID have load lifters. Probably late 70’s or early 80’s.

In case Ike pops up with his Aarn stuff, he might want to check out Bal-Paks from the late 70’s or early 80’s.

Supposedly Greg Lowe made the first internal pack in 1967. I didn’t pay much attention to internal packs in the early days, but don’t remember load lifters until Gregory released the Cassin in the late 70’s or early 80’s. Internals were mostly used by alpine climbers and not very popular until 1984 when Colin Fletcher released the Complete Walker III. Fletcher made internals popular. My 80’s vintage Mountain Smith Frostfire internal had lifters.

can you try wearing the pack so that the hip belt is more centered on the top of your hip bone. if you raise the pack up an inch or two this way, the geometry will look better.

nm

Dave,

It is hard to see the details. But it looks like the Trailwise. Straps connect at the bottom of the frame and then loop over the mesh panel and are connected to the cross frame with adjustable straps. I may be wrong. Looks like one of the newer frames that were made after Mr. Kelty sold the company.

Coleman Peak 1 below (from the Complete Walker III illustration)

Great!
Models A, B, & C.
They were order by numbers before order by numbers was cool. Model A compartmentalizes misery, B welcomes it, and C wallows in misery.

Looks like side compression straps hadn't been invented. Reading about the baffles as a sort of substitute makes you realize how handy they can be. I don't recall side compression straps on these types of bags. I only had very little experience with these frames, though.

Not sure if this is stealing this thread away but here's a link to a pic of a Trailwise external harness. http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=1&weiid=8777923&lang=En

The harness was completely free-floating behind the mesh panel like Nick was describing. That's where the height adjustment of the base of the shoulder pads were, behind the mesh, and the height adjustment straps anchored at the base of the frame behind the mesh I think. The top of the pads connected to the frame via the load lifters. The straps behind the mesh created an X with the right shoulder pad anchor point being on the opposite side of the frame at the base and vice versa.

As Nick said, Gregory's first load lifter pack came out in the late 70's or so. I remember seeing the first one about then. Before that, Gregory made externals called Sunbird. I sold quite a few of those BITD, from the early 70s for a couple years. That company collapsed, rumor has it because of a bad magazine review, and Wayne made a comeback with his Cassin. I'm trying to remember who he worked for in between those ventures…..I think is was a well known outdoor clothing company at the time…..it will come to me……here company, come on, here cute little company…..

Here is a link showing Wayne and his wife wearing Sunbirds. I did not know he worked for A-16 before that! http://www.adventure16.com/content.asp?itemid=468

Gregory history;

http://www.inov8.au.com/compass/gregoryhistory.html

I think the company I was trying to remember could be Gerry.

nm

We stopped having to drag out meat home from the forest.

I don't know. I was told internal packs were better because they weren't quite so rigid and moved a bit with the person. I may have been told BS.

Off the top of my head; there is Zpacks, Luxurylite, Daryl at this website with his creations, and probably much more we just don't get to see. The concept is not dead. I would love to design an external…..maybe in the coming decade. I have plenty of ideas to put together. I've certainly modified enough of them. Anyone remember Gregory's Kelty Conversion kit that made it possible to put his Sunbird belt on a Kelty? I used to sell those retail back in the early 70s. There are quite a few hunting packs using molded Carbon sheets as external hybrids.

nm

Just to get back on topic, I noticed the OP thinks I have an elbow measurement involved in my spine measurement method. That is not the case. There is an elbow measurement but it is not for measuring the spine.

The OP's pack is certainly not too long. Too bad the overall frame can't be slightly longer while keeping the harness height the same. I would get the next size up or at least try it if the harness is no more than an inch higher. The OP say that with 27 lbs in it that it does such and such. Those are the pics we need to see.

nm

Go hiking for a full day with the max weight youd ever stuff in that pack

Thats the ONLY way to be sure

Rather than ask BPLers

;)

"What ever happened to the external pack? Why did it lose it's love."

One person caused it: Colin Fletcher.

In The Complete Walker(1968) and The New Complete Walker (1974) he extolled the virtues of Trailwise packs, Pivetta and Easy Hiker boots. That put those products on the map.

In The Complete Walker III (1984), his new favorite pack was the Gregory Cassin. Wayne Gregory will tell you he owes his success to Fletcher.

Maybe I should mention that Dan McHale thru hiked the JMT unsupported as a teenager in 11 days using an external frame — a Camp Trails, I think. Maybe that is why he learned how to make a pack that fits and carries correctly :)

Not sure what you mean there Nick. My Camp Trails external was plenty comfortable for that trip – I'm sure better than what many carry today. I only started with 40 lbs. It really had nothing to do with me making packs. I still have the one my brother had and still look at it fondly. I never had any problems carrying my CT. After I wore that pack out I switched to a Kelty BB5. Making packs came later after watching my buddies at Wilderness Experience start up. I only started because it looked fun and I wanted to try an internal with a better full wrap belt. The Camp trail frame was cool – made of a Magnesium alloy. It's pretty featherweight. People wanted light stuff back then too. All the nonsense about traditional backpacking is nonsense. Not everyone was dumb back then.

Getting back to that Crown; that's far too big of a jump to the next size. I think Bob Gross mentioned getting the hipbelt slightly higher. Otherwise, it would be good for all of us to see the pack with the actual weight in it. In the most basic sense the fit is OK but the information we have is limited.

Well, this is turning out to be a good thread. I have learned some things.

4"?

Wow. You are right- that really could be "over the top." Otoh, I'd still be curious to see the pack fully loaded down (with the weight of a few hundred fabulous BPL opinions), just to see how much it settles.

(I sure remember the Cassin. My cuticles cringe just thinking about getting all that darn Velcro separated just to switch out a hip belt. In my teen-aged days of outdoor retail, I still have this fuzzy recollection of a gear training workshop I attended in '87 where Wayne Gregory was there showing us how to fit his packs. Since REI had only just opened a couple of stores in the East back then, I guess our outfit was one of his bigger brick&mortar clients back then.)

I distinctly remember co-workers treated him like a rock star for some reason, having him sign catalogs & such.

I was more partial to Lowe's packs, I guess.

nm

My old Camp Trails, circa 1970 I think

nm

Hey –

The hip belt is on the wrong side ;)

i know-I shoulda flipped the belt around before I took the photo! btw-3lb 5oz, and I remember it being a real easy pack to "live" out of.

Excellent observation.

Delmar,

There was an interesting thread about a month ago discussing the issue of pack fits. Maybe someone can point you to that one. Anyway there are 2 basic uncertainties in sizing, different people wear packs differently, and pack companies seem to have different definitions of the "proper" torso range, as well as different ways of measuring said length. The latter can be effected by commercial interests as well, where pack companies try to squeeze all the torso length into a minimum number of fixed sizes.

A conclusion is that both the official measurement of your own torso length and the official recommended length of the pack should be taken with a huge grain of salt. What IS universal, however, is if you find a pack that fits you "perfectly", and then measures the precise distance from the middle of the belt to the shoulder strap attachment, then if you find another pack with exactly that measurement (you have to measure it yourself because most pack companies only give you "recommended", not actual measurements) then unless it is a radically difference style of pack, that pack will also have a "perfect" fit. You can call the companies and ask for these specific measurement, but I highly recommend you figure out THAT measurement.

From the picture (taking a rough guess) I would suggest you measure the distance of that pack from the middle of the belt to the shoulder attachment point, and add about 1 inch to that. I'm guessing that that number is close to your "true" torso length, but keep in mind that in order to match it to another pack you have to get the specific measurement, NOT the recommended torso length. Was that clear?

Sorry for the long winded explanation. The short one is that "recommended torso lengths" can be mostly BS!

As Dan said, the pack you show in the picture is definitely NOT too long. I think you can take that to the bank. I'm not worthy to lick Dan's old-timey boots on this issue, but hopefully I just gave you an idea of how to resolve the confusion a bit.

The pack you show is not too long, and if anything you might get away with a longer pack as well. I'd try one out if you can manage it – you don't need to necessarily ask for another pack to try – you could go to a store with a tape measure and try on other pack with the right length, and then ask the company in question to tell you the specific length.

Or else get a custom made one. :-)

Thanks for all the replies! A long time I’ve wanted to learn the mysteries of pack fit and this thread is like a crash course. I’m no longer so focused on this one pack, I’m more interested in pack fit in general. It’s an interesting topic.

@ McHale. Apologies for misunderstanding the elbow measurement. My bad. Although as you observe elsewhere, the bottom of the bent elbow and the top of the iliac crest live in the same neighborhood. At least they surely do for me. I promise to get you and the list a photo of the loaded pack after a walk. I’m a working stiff, and can’t do it today. But as soon as I can, hopefully before the weekend. Thanks for weighing in!

@ Chan. Agreed, but look at how much we’re learning about pack fit by discussing it. Previously, I thought pack fit could be determined by a trained eye at REI alone (j/k). Now I’m learning there’s no substitute for the hike. (Makes returns more challenging!)

@ Mark. Teacher of the year award goes to you! Excellent info. I will make the measurement you suggest after work and report back.

Y’all might be interested in the laconic reply I got from GG themselves, in an email:

“We reviewed the pictures and the information you sent.  The crown pack does
not have the adjustment potential the Blaze pack has with the shoulder
straps.  From the looks of the picture you might want to loosen up the
straps on the top of the pack and the belt should fit with the center of the
side over the crest of the hip bone.  If information does not help, please
let us know.”

So she (the GG rep) doesn’t like how tight I’ve pulled the load lifters–if they should even be called such. Perhaps they are “top of pack snugger inners.”

When she says “the center of the side,” do you suppose she refers to the side of the body, forward of the iliac crest? In other words, if the iliac crest sits at about 4-5 o’clock and 7-8 o’clock on the body, is she talking about 3 and 9 o’clock? If so, then yes, the hip crest in those places is about half way (2”) down the 4" belt. (Previously I was referencing to the top of the iliac crest when I reported 1" from top of belt.)

HEY! I recognize that Camp Trails pack! That was my first pack as a kid!! Didn't they come in a shocking orange as well?