Overloaded with choices for packs

If you still are working your base weight down then wait on the pack and get it last — the pack should fit the gear not the other way around.

"Is it possible to be paralyzed by over analyzing your gear choices?" Is it possible not to? ;-)

I can't help you as far as packs go, but as far as quilts/bags go…it really depends. Quilts are easy to us, I don't understand what propagated the myth that they're hard to use, or only for experienced users. They're just like sleeping with a blanket at home. If you're asleep at home and get cold, you usually tuck the blanket under your body to keep more warmth in. Same with quilts. Some quilts even have straps on the bag to keep it attached to your pad and wrapped around you a little more securely.

It comes down to how you sleep, where you will be, and when you plan on going on your trips. If you think you'll experience temperatures near freezing, as a cold sleeper, a quilt might not be in your best interest. Quilts can be drafty, especially if you're a bigger guy who tosses and turns in his sleep.

If you plan on being out in freezing temperatures, I'd suggest getting a larger cut bag.

I totally agree that you need to finish lightening (and compacting) your gear before you get the pack. An unfortunately for most of us, we cannot try them on before we buy :(

So…..you buy a few, try them on at home, then keep the one(s) you want/like/fit. But you do need to wait on that.

I would also suggest just going head first into the quilt. I was rather intimidated when I first started lurking here, but honestly, there is no big mystery or advanced skills needed. It is so much more natural to me than any sleeping bag I've ever used. I am a frequent pee-er (I am terribly afraid my running nickname will turn into my trail name on my thru hike: the Urinator) and the constant fiddling with the sleeping bag's zipper while mostly asleep was never a good idea. Especially as I enter menopause…if you know what I mean.

But I digress.

Try the quilt, just make sure it's a wide one. Email Tim from Enlightened Equipment…he makes great stuff that is much less expensive than many others. He'll help you with a recommendation about sizing and whatnot based on your build and sleep style. And if you don't like it, you can sell it on gear swap.

What does your gear list look like so far maybe we can help you get that straightened away so you can then start looking for a backpack.

Nunatak- I have had good expierence with them. I love my arc ghost.

Do you like to carry less sleeping bag and wear your cloths to bed or do you sleep in long johns? I wear all my gear and a down jacket to bed to save weight.

Enlightened Equipment- this is more than likely where my next quilt will come from. Just cause of cost but if I dont like it when it shows up I will order that arc alpinest from tom!!! as I said my ghost fits me like a glove. I also had him move some of the insulation from the top of the bag to the bottom(down jacket worn) and a little over fill for the larger foot box. And the bag came in a cool purple color that I love!!!

I agree with the above. I think if you are still working on/changing some of the main elements of gear then I wouldn't bother to spend a lot of money on a pack. What is going to happen (has happened to a lot/most of us) is that you are going to end up having some expensive intermediate packs on your way down that hardly got a lifespan of use. I'd go with a more inexpensive pack if you have a trip before you feel you are happy. Since you need to do some trips to know if you are happy, it is a bit of a catch 22. Fortunately there are some reasonably decent packs out there for not too much money you could use in the mean time.

I'm curious why you need almost 60L – or do you? What are you taking along that uses a lot of volume? I'd look at that before a pack.

Also, what do you mean by not comfy on you shoulders? Are they digging in to your neck? On one side of the strap or the other, or just because they are narrow? Are you absolutely sure you have the right torso length for you and are adjusting things correctly?

Too much weight for the given pack is a common problem. Another is that the way you like to wear your pack in effect gives you a different effective torso lengths. When you wear the packs that feel uncomfortable do the shoulder straps attach to the pack about at shoulder level? They probably should within a few inches.

Lots of people on here say the Exos packs do not feel good on their shoulders, but the aether pack not feeling comfortable maybe tweaks my interest a bit on these issues since you should be able to adjust the fit more. Lets make sure we know why those packs you mentioned, and presumably a lot of others, for some reason don't feel right. Maybe that will clarify things. Sounds like like narrow is bad for you because of your shoulders. If so you might get some relief just using a longer torso length.

Shawn, thanks for some very well formulated questions. It's a lot easier to help someone who's done their homework.

I disagree with the conventional wisdom of buying a pack last. Incrementalism is boring. I say get a good light and smallish pack, and make your gear fit. So long as a you have a decently compact shelter and bag, the only thing a smaller pack will help you do is trim the fat. Make yourself a rule that nothing gets strapped to the outside, and stick with it.

If you've got a lifters physique the length of shoulder straps is going to be a crux of pack fitting. You'll want a brand whose straps tend to be long for a given torso length. You also might as well get wide straps if you've got the muscle to support them. The Gossamer Gear Mariposa meets both of these requirements. The Gorilla is a bit too thin front to back to fit a bear can well. The Blaze AC 60 in the larger size is also a good choice, as is a ULA Catalyst. Think of it this way, any of those three will be a solid workhorse that will last for years, and can be augmented with a smaller weight-weenie pack in the future.

Cold sleeper says bag to me. The hoodless aspect of quilts is just not as efficient as a solid WM draft collar and hood when you get well below freezing. I'd say get the Badger. You won't be afraid to camp high, which is always a good idea in the Sierras.

Just keep in mind that with a fat down bag, bear can, and ~60 liter pack you'll need to trim the fat from everything else.

you need to try the packs on with the weight you want in em … only that will tell you

either find people with those cottage packs you want to try … or be prepared to pay return shipping

its really that simple

the pack is one thing (other than shoes) where weight is secondary … FIT is everything

"I disagree with the conventional wisdom of buying a pack last. Incrementalism is boring."

I also like the idea of buying the pack first – go "cold turkey" and then force yourself to fit. LOL

Also, if only I had a dime for everyone of us, including myself, that has recommended buying a pack last after never doing anything of the sort themselves. I think this is how we try to purge our gear buying sins – by suggesting that someone (anyone else but us) be frugal and logical. ;-)

"Also, if only I had a dime for everyone of us, including myself, that has recommended buying a pack last after never doing anything of the sort themselves. I think this is how we try to purge our gear buying sins – by suggesting that someone (anyone else but us) be frugal and logical. ;-)"

yep I bought a pack that I replaced months later after further reducing my gear. Osprey Atmos.

Ps bought it from REI and did not return it!! It worked great when I used it so I decided that REI should not have to pay for my mistake.

post your list we will trim the fat!

I will post up a gear list this weekend.

I'm a long John wearer to bed…can't sleep in bulky clothes…..

I appreciate your thoughts and effort in responding.

Hi Shawn,

I have a similar build due to powerlifting so I can understand your concerns/frustrations. I have found my ULA Circuit to be more than adequate for both my shoulders, upper back and waist line. The hip belt transfers the load nicely to my hips and the shoulder straps keep the weight close to my back (which I like). Even though I've put on 20lbs in the last 6 months (trying to go up a weight class) my pack still fits fine and I've even sold off my other packs because I truly believe the Circuit is all I'm going to need. On top of a great fit, it weighs under 2 lbs and allows me to carry as much or as little as I need (it compresses well with smaller loads). I have tried several other packs but I can't find another pack that fits as well as my Circuit.

I'm not a particularly cold sleeper so take this with a grain of salt. I started with a mummy bag but because I'm a side sleeper I felt too constricted, like sleeping in a body bag. I also tend to thrash around quite a bit. So I went to a quilt which, so far, I've really enjoyed. I got the 20 degree extra wide, extra long quilt from Zpacks and had him add 1-2 ozs of down. On the underside of the quilt there are three straps that you can tighten if you want it warmer or loosen/unclip if you want to stick a leg out. It also has a cord around the collar that allows you to cinch it closed if you want it warmer. As Dave pointed out above, quilts don't come with a hood so you'd either have to supplement with a beanie/balaclava or down hood that many companies, including zpacks, makes. I don't remember exactly what I paid but it was in the $350-400 range. You should check their website because I could be completely off.

Hope that helps some.

I think you have some sound advice about waiting on a pack. But I really need to start looking at some alternatives to what I have. This Altra 65 is 5lbs and 2 ounces. Super comfy but way heavier than I need to carry.

As far as comfort on my shoulders, It digs into my neck and into my pec/shoulder joint. Certain shaped straps are awesome and feel great. But I have found packs that have a stitched in shoulder strap and the inability to maneuver the straps out or up and down are really rough on me (i.e. the exos). One of the reasons I took a baby step down to the Altra 65 was the myriad of possibilities of moving around the shoulder harness in the peg system. So I really am scrutinizing shoulder harness systems sense they are my Achilles heel so far. Even on packs that are meant to carry heavy loads, the wrong straps can make me miserable…my old military ruck comes to mind.

The aether to me felt like it sat oddly on my back…it didn't really feel like a good fit….

I like the idea of potentially using the longer torso length….thank you for the time and effort in responding

David,

I'm of the same mindset……which is what prompted me to post….I am so not an incrementalist. Making gear fit is more of the mantra I like to follow…..

As for the bag….I like your thought process….I can demo the badger at a local store so I am feeling good about that. I was just perplexed by all the pros/cons I have read about larger guys and quilts. the few extra ounces won't kill me for a nice bag like the WM. I do like to camp high…so this is a good choice and I think you hit it square on the nose here.

As for the pack, thank you for the advice on long straps…I never considered this.

On the ULA can I adjust the shoulder harness or is it limited in its adjust ability?

The bear can is the real killer here…I know someone above asked if I really needed a 60L pack…..unfortunately I haven't found a pack yet for a "light backpacker" (not ultralight) like me that can fit a bear can, a bag, and the essentials for a two week trip yet….

" I think this is how we try to purge our gear buying sins – by suggesting that someone (anyone else but us) be frugal and logical. ;-)"

I laughed at this….so true in life…..thanks for the good sense of humor…I'm gonna buy a few of these and cross my fingers I get it right on the first 2-3 choices.

"post your list we will trim the fat!"

I will….I'll put it into excel and put it up by Sunday and thanks for the assistance!

Eric,

What do you figure is the longest and heaviest (with food) trip you took the Catalyst on…I ask about heavy due to food storage….I'm really debating whether I want to try and cram my last leg of the JMT from MTR to Whitney in my can or bail/meet someone near Kearsage/Charlotte Lake for a resupply. My pack handling the extra food is an item to take into consideration about which one I go with.

I'm really liking what I have read and am hearing about the Catalyst. If that shoulder harness is adjustable I'll be super happy.

I'm looking at the zpacks quilt you mentioned. I never knew about them…looks intriguing.

I have the Circuit which I believe is a different size then the Catalyst. However, my base weight hovers around 10 lbs, plus 2 lbs for a bear canister, then depending on the length of my trips the food weight varies. The most food I've carried is 10 days (about 8 days in a bear canister) at probably 1.5-1.7 lbs of food per day. So were looking at roughly 27+ lbs for everything.

In terms of the JMT I would figure out what kind of miles you want to do and what your time constraints are. If you have the time to hike out over Kearsarge and resupply there, I probably would. That stretch between MTR and Whitney is long and if you plan on doing 10-12 mile days you're looking at a lot of food.

Pack fit is highly individual. With something like ULA or GG you'll have to commit to buying it, fitting it around the house, and possibly returning it. You'll be out shipping, but that's how it goes.

I'm assuming that part of your past complaints with fixed torso packs and the lack of comfort with their shoulder straps is that none of them had long enough torsos. Even large Osprey packs aren't especially large (i.e. they tend to fit in the 19" torso range). 6'3" with a 20" torso is pretty short for that height, you might be measuring yourself a bit short, which would make things worse.

One of the reason GG packs work as well as they do is that the torso lengths are properly long. A large Gorilla measures 22" from the bottom of the backpanel to the middle of the shoulder straps where they're sewn on.

If the more specialty packs don't work out, the Blaze will cut some pounds and fit your gear. You'd probably be able to pay for it by craigslisting that Altra, too.

Dave C is right on! I have a bit of a lifters build and the packs he mentioned have worked well with me. To add, for 2013, the Blaze now comes with L shoulder straps (longer padded portion) as an option. Including the Gorilla, I have found great success with Hyperlite Mountain Gear and their Porter packs. Assuming you fit the torso sizes, the shoulder straps are nice and wide and long (just under 19" for the Large sized Porter).

"I'm assuming that part of your past complaints with fixed torso packs and the lack of comfort with their shoulder straps is that none of them had long enough torsos. "

Hence the advice to put on your loaded pack and see if the straps attach to the pack below the level of your shoulder more than and inch or so. Perfectly level is supposedly ideal. If they are too low the torso length is probably too short irrespective of any other metric. I suspect your "weight lifter's" shoulders would be enough to explain the discrepancy in most cases. If the discrepancy is extreme then the load lifters may not work either leading to the digging into you shoulders. Check they are at about 45 degrees when tightened.

Not saying any of that is the case, just very easy for you to double check.

Edit: once you get a pack to fit to your satisfaction, might as well go ahead and measure the the actual distance from the bottom of the belt to the place where the straps connect with the pack. This will be your actual comfortable torso length. After that all you will need to do is get the online-only sellers to tell you what this measurement is on their packs, regardless of what the "recommended torso length" is, and you will have hopefully an objective way to translate. There will probably be 2nd order style differences, but at least you will get the main one right from then on.

Hi Mark, I like your measured approach but wanted to add. Torso size, although fixed for any one person, will vary depending on where the individual wears the belt. Some wear it such that the illiac just meets the top of the belt, others where it meets the bottom, and others somewhere in between. Measuring from the bottom of the belt would not work for me. I know that I need 17.5 to 18" from the top of the belt to work as I wear my belt a little lower than some.

Agree %100 percent. That is why I think it is probably best to find one pack, at least, that you are very happy with. Then you measure the distance for *that* pack. Then you ask for exactly that distance from the manufacturer. *Not* what THEY call the torso length for that pack, but literally the same measurement you took from the pack you were happy with. Actually I'm recommending ignoring the listed torso length altogether for the reason you mentioned, except as a label.

That should pretty much take into account any difference of wear preferences and style. There may be some very slight shifts in "perfect fit" for stylistic things – width of the belt, weight intended to carry, and so on. But the way I mentioned should actually compensate for any personal difference in the relative "happy point" of the waist belt for different people, such as if you like it extra low or extra high.

Of course knowing consciously, as you do, exactly which point on the belt, bottom or middle and so on, is the point that correspond to a fixed point on you body when it is most comfortable for you will allow you to fine tune this the he nth degree. Then if you know both the distance I mention above and the width of the belt you can still make a pretty exact match knowing just those dimensions – if you can get them from the manufacturer that is. That way you don't get fooled by differences in the listed torso lengths, OR the difference in your personal preferences as to where the hip belt feels best.

Shawn-

I see that you're somewhere in Northern California. Depending on some combination of how close you are to the Bay Area and how much you'd prefer to try on a pack and buy in person, you might want to check out Down Works in Santa Cruz (http://www.downworks.com). They generally have the full line of ULA packs as well as the lighter weight Osprey packs in stock. Nick is a great guy and very knowledgable about all things backpacking, with a bent towards LW/UL gear.

I've bought several MontBell pieces there over the years, and always enjoy checking out what other cool stuff they've got in stock. (one of only two bricks and mortar stores where I've seen a Caldera Cone, for instance.)

Good luck finding the right pack!

-Scott

Mark mill…

"Hence the advice to put on your loaded pack and see if the straps attach to the pack below the level of your shoulder more than and inch or so. Perfectly level is supposedly ideal. If they are too low the torso length is probably too short irrespective of any other metric. "

Could you be more specific? Ive always wondered about this.

My Deuter act trail 32 is fixed. REI says i have a 19 inch torso by their Osprey measuring thing. My bag should fit me perfectly, but i think the torso is way too short.

More specifically, where should the two straps near your armpits that you can adjust … Where should they be ideally when all the tightening is done? Inch or two below, even to armpit…. seems like you are saying right below shoulders… Are these the straps your talking about? If so, ive been wearing my packs insanely wrong. Those straps have always been around my armpits if they are the same ones your talking about.

The problem with me is that i seem to switch how high or low i wear my pack alot… Sometimes one feels comfortable at first, then i switch, and vice versa…