Home › Forums › Campfire › Editor’s Roundtable › Mountain SuperUltraLight Backpacking – Going SUL in the Mountains with Adequate Shelter, Insulation, and Rain Protection. Part 3: M-SUL Base Weight Gear Lists
Jun 4, 2013 at 7:20 pm #1303798
Maia JordanBPL Member
@maiaLocale: Rocky MountainsJun 5, 2013 at 2:38 am #1993476
Another great write up.
Thanks!Jun 5, 2013 at 4:25 am #1993483
@morte66Locale: Surrey flatlands, England
Do you happen to know Will, from your gear list software or whatever, what a complete set up would cost?Jun 5, 2013 at 7:01 am #1993500
Tony RoncoBPL Member
+1 on the Cost Curiosity questionJun 5, 2013 at 7:09 am #1993502
Roman VazhnovBPL Member
4 breakfasts x 7 oz + 5 lunches x 10 oz + 4 dinners x 7 oz = 106 oz total (3005 grams), not 70.
2 kg (70 oz) of food for five days are clearly not enough.Jun 5, 2013 at 7:30 am #1993509
Chris WBPL Member
"2 kg (70 oz) of food for five days are clearly not enough."
Depends on the person. Metabolisms vary significantly. Mike C! has thoroughly tested food weights and advocates (last I checked anyway) 1.2 lbs (or 19 oz) per person per day.
5*19 = 95 oz, but that assumes you need 5 full days of meals. Most people don't carry/eat breakfast on the first day and dinner on the last day, so really it's more like 4.5 days of meals for a 5 day trip.
4.5*19 = 86 oz
Mike C! doesn't worry about caloric density either. You can do better on weight by using dense foods.
Will is older, and while quite active, isn't going to need as many calories as say Andrew Skurka. Most backpackers can also spare a few pounds of body fat and don't need to depend on the food they carry for survival, especially on shorter trips.Jun 5, 2013 at 10:10 am #1993568
Scratching my head at the 'Maximum of 1 liter of water carried'….Jun 5, 2013 at 11:11 am #1993595
Bruce WarrenBPL Member
I love this series because it "takes it to the limit". Hikers have nothing else to do so why not make each camping task more time consuming or less comfortable to save weight. But I suggest that there is no net benefit (joy, mileage, comfort…) to going so low with pack weight.
When I was designing backpacks using the kids in my Boy Scout Troop as guinea pigs, I stumbled upon an interesting metric. The 12 kids varied in weight from 110 lbs to 220lbs. But they all had no problem hiking (mostly flat trails in Texas) with a total load under 30 lbs. Cutting down to 20lb made no difference in their performance/fun/stumbles. (under 20 is impossible with Boy Scouts) But going over 30 lbs made most of the scouts (big and small) very tired very fast and they tipped over a lot. It was not a percentage of body weight… it was 30 lbs.
I believe that if you keep your total added weight under 30lbs your hike will be a success. I speculate that it relates to humans evolving carrying their kids around for safety/speed/etc. When the kid gets to 30lbs he can survive on his own two feet.Jun 5, 2013 at 11:25 am #1993600
Jerry AdamsBPL Member
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
"Scratching my head at the 'Maximum of 1 liter of water carried'…."
I never carry more than 1/2 literJun 5, 2013 at 11:41 am #1993605
Will RietveldBPL Member
@williwabbitLocale: Southwest Colorado
Looks like I made a math error. Will get it corrected asap.
1.5 pounds of food per day is just right for me when hiking hard. I eat less the first 2 days then eat more the remaining days. Every hiker needs to determine the amount of food needed for his metabolism.
Water is abundant in the mountains where I hike so 1 liter is enough to carry. Every hiker needs to make a judgment call on how much water to carry for his needs and situation. Best, WillJun 5, 2013 at 8:11 pm #1993749
A few basic items appear to be missing. Soap, Map, Compass, car key…
Including TP DEET and sunscreen in your lists but no soap really caught my eye.
Also a liter of water by definition is 1Kg or 1000g not 998g.Jun 5, 2013 at 8:39 pm #1993753
Rex SandersBPL Member
@rexLocale: Central California Coast
"Also a liter of water by definition is 1Kg or 1000g not 998g."
Depends on temperature. At 20°C, 1 liter is about 998g.Jun 5, 2013 at 9:01 pm #1993758
Soap? I haven't taken soap on a trip in years.
It is certainly okay to smell a bit and don't forget THIS IS A SUL ARTICLE!!!!Jun 5, 2013 at 9:13 pm #1993761
The soap has nothing to do with smelling nice it has to do with wiping your ass then stuffing the same hand into your food bag. There are many articles (some on this site) that show most intestinal distress in the back country is from bad hygiene practices not bad water.Jun 5, 2013 at 9:20 pm #1993763
Use a leaf. And spork.Jun 5, 2013 at 9:25 pm #1993764
W I S N E R !BPL Member
Bloody hell Ryan Jordan!!! This is what you're willing to publish?
2 grams off on a liter of water??!! And I thought you were a PHD or dentist or life coach or something.
No soap or car key listed??!! Keep your hands outta my M&Ms and back off. And not listing your car key on the spreadsheet is dishonest. This ain't Wall Street Ryan Jordan; go back to Bear Stearns with Will and your phony accountants. Think of the example you're setting for your Scouts and Countrymen.
No map or compass??!! You're not just putting your own life at risk. Think of all those that could die looking for you. Flagrant disregard for others. Will, I'm putting you in touch with Dale immediately for some 10 Essentials training.
An otherwise solid article is ruined now. Completely ruined.
Children could be reading this.
For shame, Ryan Jordan, for shame. Will, I trusted you.Jun 5, 2013 at 9:45 pm #1993772
I should have know better that post a comment on a site populated by fanatics. The weights in Will's most excellent article are listed down to thousandths of an ounce or tenth of a gram. To strive for such accuracy and leave out essential items seems like an over-site to me. And yes, I DO consider soap, map, compass and car key essential. After all I would like to be able to return home at the end of my trip.Jun 5, 2013 at 10:24 pm #1993792
Nick GatelBPL Member
@ngatelLocale: Southern California
I often don't bring a map or compass in areas I am very familiar with. Many people leave their keys under a rock or stashed on the car frame. My present vehicle was purchased specifically to include a keyless entry system so I can hide the key inside where it would be difficult for a thief to find. You don't need soap for a weekend trip. Do you think the soldiers that go through survival training are issued soap?
The concept of light, UL, SUL, etc. is to maximize the one critical piece of equipment — the brain.
Relax — it's just walking.Jun 5, 2013 at 11:32 pm #1993805
Tad EnglundBPL Member
@bestbuilderLocale: Pacific Northwest
Craig, you forgot:
I agree that it seem some on this forum have an 10 essentials kit the probably weighs more than Wills list.
And Nick I agree with the key thing- I lock mine in the car and have a spare attached to the frame. I do take soap for my #2 clean up, I don't use TP and kind of have an issue with cleanup. I guess water and some pine needles or the like would work. But for less than a ounce- I'll take the soap.
Compass and map- there are some areas of the cascades that I don't need a compass/map. I have been on many trips where either never came out. But I always take it if there is even the slightest chance I'll have a issue (which means 90% of the time- I like to change things up)Jun 6, 2013 at 5:54 am #1993841
"The soap has nothing to do with smelling nice it has to do with wiping your ass then stuffing the same hand into your food bag."
On solo trips, you can generally do away with soap. If you are not infected with anything, there is no reason to anticipate being infected with something through feces or urine. Sound's kind'a gross, but, this is a scientific fact. If you have ever had new-born puppys around, you know that it is common for them to eat their own feces. They do not die from this behavior. Nor does a mother get sick from cleaning up after the young ones. Even if a person were to have something already, there is only a few that can reinfect the same person…and it doesn't matter because that person is already infected with whatever disease/parasite (though some tapeworms, and other types can double infect…I am assuming a healthy person to start.)
It is Human to Human that transmits diseases. You cannot get a new disease from anything your own body produces. It is the other guy you have to watch out for.Jun 6, 2013 at 6:20 am #1993848
Miguel ArboledaBPL Member
@butukiLocale: Kanto Plain, Japan
I should have know better that post a comment on a site populated by fanatics.
Craig… a fanatic! That made me laugh out loud!
Mobius… always take Craig with a gram of salt. Or soap. He's been known to exaggerate… on purpose.Jun 6, 2013 at 7:15 am #1993865
Jerry AdamsBPL Member
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
"It is Human to Human that transmits diseases. You cannot get a new disease from anything your own body produces. It is the other guy you have to watch out for."
I've never been sure about that. Maybe if you take bacteria from your colon and put them in your stomach you could have a problem?Jun 6, 2013 at 9:11 am #1993905
"I've never been sure about that. Maybe if you take bacteria from your colon and put them in your stomach you could have a problem?"
e.Coli is commonly found throughout the intestinal area. Occasionally in the stomach, but I believe simple paristolosis keeps the numbers down to a minimum when coupled with lining-shed, and enzymes/chemicals produced for normal digestion.
Here is an excerpt from the Centers for Disease Control:
Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria normally live in the intestines of people and animals. Most E. coli are harmless and actually are an important part of a healthy human intestinal tract. However, some E. coli are pathogenic, meaning they can cause illness, either diarrhea or illness outside of the intestinal tract. The types of E. coli that can cause diarrhea can be transmitted through contaminated water or food, or through contact with animals or persons.
E. coli consists of a diverse group of bacteria. Pathogenic E. coli strains are categorized into pathotypes. Six pathotypes are associated with diarrhea and collectively are referred to as diarrheagenic E. coli.
Again, this is a "maybe".
I spent a couple hours looking trhough all the medical stuff on line, but I didn't run across it, though there was some mention of it that infants could be suseptible. Unclear if this applies to adults due to socization or biology. All the documents were pretty much like the above. If you use resonable precautions, like a clean spoon, boiling foods, using your other hand for eating "Arabic" style, I don't think there is much to worry about.
Again, if you have one of the above mentioned pathogenic types, you will likly be imune to it anyway, since you *must* have had it *sometime before* going hiking for it to be present. Or, it is no longer present and poses no threat, since you would be sick if it was present. Sort of a Catch 22. You surley wouldn't go camping if you already were sick. But, you MIGHT be "that other person" if you go with a group.
Unclear…like you say…Jun 6, 2013 at 9:35 am #1993914
Dale WambaughBPL Member
@dwambaughLocale: Pacific Northwest
You'll know if you get the wrong kind of e.Coli. My daughter had a bout a few years ago and spent the better part of a week in the hospital. Believe me, you don't ever want to go there. Wash your hands and make sure the cook does! A small vial of liquid soap and another of alcohol gel hand cleaner won't throw your base weight out of whack.
It sounds like your mother, but she was right :)Jun 6, 2013 at 9:54 am #1993929
How good is the soap for the environment?
Take away: don't shake hands with a stranger.
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