Pyrenean Traverse — Logistics

Hi hartley

The Veron route is difficult without a car (and driver) for support. He says so himself.
The Joostens route needs a tent for some of the nights. The Cicerone book lists all the food sources, and we have also bought some food for taking away from the Refuges. Post Restante at the villages and also at some hotles can work – but why bother? We didn't.

What we missed with the tent are the hot showers … :-)

Shelter. The Hubba HP 2-man pop-up might be OK for one person provided you always have shelter from the wind. Our experience in the Pyrenees is that you do NOT always have this, and the best views are high up! You could take the risk and get away with it HALF the time I am sure. The 1-man Hubba pop-up tent might be OK provided you do always have shelter, but those sides are going to push in when there is wind. In both cases there is really just one long pole holding the tent up, and it is not strong. Very chancy.

You know my biases, I am sure. I would look at a small tunnel tent. We have used those across the Pyrenees several times, with great success. The H Nallo 2 is 2.4 kg but rather expensive. It would be very comfortable. But also have a look at the Vango Tempest 2000: heavier at about 2.8 kg but much less expensive, and the Vango Sabre 2000: similar and also inexpensive. I'd favour the Tempest myself. They are made for the UK conditions, which are a LOT harsher than America. And they are simple enough to pitch.

Cheers

Hi Roger: Thanks for your insight. I am traveling solo and I am a small person. I DO like the idea of tunnel tents in general.

I am considering the Hilleberg Unna. I have always wanted a tent without a vestibule! It IS heavy! Many love the Akto for such trips. The simplicity of the Unna is very attractive to me! (I am bracing for some abuse talking about such heavy shelter here!) Most of my long walks have been in the Alps. And yes, I realize the high Pyrenees (and the high Alps for that matter) are NOT the Sierras in summer!

I think I will choose between Akto and Unna…I feel that they are up to the job. Are the obvious advantages of the Unna worth the extra weight…hmmm. By the way, they are making these tents in tan now…though they don't have them on the website yet…just a bit of trivia.

I am not set on following one prescribed route/path the entire distance. I am looking at the intersections as decision points. There are a few of those peaks I am set on. It may be better to do the traverse and travel back and take these on with more appropriate gear. (I have not looked at the snow reports yet.)

I know you have done such a traverse. What route? (Yes, I will google it!)

I don't think Véron has updated for a while ;) though there are plenty of trip reports at http://www.randonner-leger.org

Hi Hartley

Unna – it's a pop-up without a vestibule. Yeah, simple, but up above the tree line in bad weather … I've seen people have some problems with other tents looking like that. OK below the tree line if you can manage it. At least it has 2 poles, but they are very long and bendy.

Akto – who came first? Hilleberg or Tarptent? Dunno. That single central pole … is OK in the forest, but well above the tree line in a storm … dunno. I would be nervous. Poles like that can buckle under wind.

Yeah, I'm biased.

We have walked the ridge line in places with some amusement. Fog and wind on the French side; sunny weather on the Spanish side. You see, there's a decompression effect as the wind crosses the ridge which turns a mild (Spanish) breeze into bad wet weather on the French side. So … if the weather is a bit filthy on the French side, hop over the ridge to the Spanish side. Easy to say, but it can at times be a bit too risky in itself!

We did both the GR10 and GR11 before the Joostens book came out. We played with parts of the Veron route while doing the 10 & 11, but some Veron bits needed car support for food supplies and some of his bits needed more climbing gear than we had – and more time too. So we wandered back and forth a bit. With a full-on winter tunnel tent, which we used hard in places.

Snow: we got to Merens one year a bit too early, looked at the range in front of us, and went and did something else. If the snow is still there, my recommendation would be just don't bother. OK, a patch of neve in a gully is not much of a problem, but wider cover … oops!

Cheers

Doing the route without wheels and then also trying to stay vegan… that is asking a lot. Too much in my opinion.

I did the GR10 last summer, with some jaunts up to the high ridges. It is hard walking (much harder than the Tour de Mont Blanc I did in 2007), because of all the ups and downs (would have been easier to stay up on the Haute Route). One of my main issues, as a diabetic, was getting the right food, and I found that it was hard not eat the local, sausage-cheese-and-bread-heavy fare. I could have cut down on the bread a little, but then I would have had a hard time carrying food that lasted more than two days. The food at the refuges I found to be excellent in most cases, with mostly fresh ingredients and lots of vegetables (it was France after all, where people really value their food). Relying on the mountain villages to get a full spectrum of healthy food was hit and miss; sometimes they had great stock, at other times just the very basics of packaged food. In those cases being able to hop on a bus or flag a car to get to the bigger towns below for proper re-supply was necessary. There was no way I could have walked those distances and still kept up the flow of the trail walk. The Pyrenees are not a single, straight line across the Iberian Peninsula… the foothills weave in and out and there are valleys everywhere. You'll wear yourself out trying to walk the ups and downs trying to get to a certain location. That's why I would say, if you're bent on not relying on the refuges, that using wheels is probably a smart move.

Last summer a huge heat wave hit the entire Pyrenees area. And this on the French side, which is usually considered the cooler, "wet" side. Some days the temperature got up to 42ºC. It is a lot hotter and drier on the Spanish side. If you are not used to high heat and how to deal with it, it can bring your walk to a halt. I know I wasn't prepared for it, even though I am used to walking in the high humidity/ heat of Japan. I hadn't realized just how fast high dry heat will suck the water out of you. My trip slowed down a lot because of needing to acclimatize and keep from getting heat stroke.

Tent camping works great if you can find a proper place to pitch your shelter. Up high on the Haute Route there were lots of places to camp, but on the ups and downs of the GR10 there were often places where all day I couldn't find a flat surface, or a lot of the land I was passing through was private land. Asking the owners to camp sometimes worked, sometimes didn't. In general I found people to be friendly and accommodating.

But I also found that the refuge and d'etape social experience added a lot to the experience of the walk. I met all kinds of people who either helped dissipate the loneliness of walking alone, or else had fantastic information for the trail ahead, things I would not have known on my own. I'd definitely recommend at least some time in the refuges just to get a better idea of the area, but also to make friends.

I encountered lots of very powerful thunder and lightning storms along the way, and one afternoon on the Petit Vignale I thought I was going to die. I got caught near the summit and had to decide to walk toward the storm to get to the refuge a half hour away, or turn back and walk 5 hours down to the valley below. I had tried setting up my shelter on a grassy knoll, but the lightning strikes were far too close for comfort, and in an utter panic I ripped up all my stakes, stuffed away the shelter, and decided to hold my breath and make for refuge, being far too tired to walk all the way back down the mountain. Stepping into the refuge, after being drenched and terrified, was one of the most welcoming moments of my life. Especially with all those people who helped me get my pack off and asked if I was all right. The hot vegetable soup that followed was one of the best meals I've ever eaten. And the bed in the stillness of the dorm room was a hundred times better than lying quaking under a thin fabric with the wind howling and thunder clapping above me.

I'd say that all in all the Pyrenees are wilder than the Alps, though not as high. Towns and villages are not as frequent. Ups and downs are a lot steeper. Keep this in mind as you plan for the journey.

Thanks Miguel for taking the time to address these matters. I have seen some of your posts and gorgeous photos elsewhere.

Oh yes, it's a "big ask"! I have used refuges and gites d'etape very extensively in the past. I am going to have to admit that this has generally been my modus operandi. For all I know, I'll end up sending the tent home. Clearly, one can sleep under a roof each night on the HRP (Joosten) if one walks at a reasonable pace (which is much easier with 4 kilos on your back!). So yes, the initial post was very idealized. I will set my mind to doing this walk and do the best I can with food. I am glad you found plenty of fresh veggies at the refuges. (I stop for vegetables!) I am going alone; I can be very flexible! If I find someone I want to walk with a few days who is doing a little different route then I have planned, I have no problem changing itinerary. I am not really "bent" on anything specifically. I mention preferences!

I very much appreciate the social experience of the refuges and gites d'etape. I do not like the snoring though. They are not always so pleasant when populated by large school groups mid summer or large climbing groups up in the wee hours throwing around their gear!

Do you mind if I ask what you used as a shelter? You may have a trip report. I will search for it!

As for the difficulty, I think I can handle it. Of course, as you point out, weather can change everything! I will probably try to have a well paced go at GR 20 (which I haven't done) as a warmup first. And I think I have a window to do it it in the coming weeks. I haven't checked Meteo yet!

Just out of curiosity, as a person with a medical background, I would be interested to hear what sort of insulin regimen you use for this kind of effort and what changes in monitoring are needed. Were you first diagnosed as a child? (This might make an interesting thread.) It must take a lot of discipline to safely deal with the effort and uncertainty of such walks. I think I have read a little from you on this. I will snoop around again. I'm not really a regular.

Did you incorporate any of the classic peaks into your traverse? I may leave time to do these after the traverse. I am comfortable with extensive snow travel…however I do not want to carry the necessary gear from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean!

Thank you again for your comments!

Unna in wind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrz6NzBsoOk

Nallo 2 in wind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73KKZDhoj_0

The Nallo does this weird wiggle thing!

The Unna really does have a certain simplicity about it.

Well, I think it is a bit unfair to compare the two videos. The Nallo is badly pitched (not tight, with loose guylines) plus the fabric is wet, so it is naturally going to be more stretched. The Unna is much better pitched and in a dry wind. I think both shelters are great shelters and will do what you want from them. I do think the Nallo, when pitched head into wind, will withstand much bigger winds than the Unna would. The Unna might be a more comfortable interior, but without a vestibule.

I used a Tarptent Notch for my trip. It was a great shelter and one of the most stable in the wind that I've used (if you properly guy out the apex points at the top of both hiking poles). The only thing I didn't like about it was the narrowness of the inner tent. Every night I struggled with my inflatable mat pushing around on the floor and my belonging being shoved around the space. I liked the front and back doors, but would have liked one side of the inner tent to have reach right up to the rear door so that I would have had more space.

I don't yet have a complete trip report yet. I'm actually working on it right now. My main obstacle has been the huge number of photos I have to process.

Yes, the videos are silly ;)

I just found a BA Fly Creek UL-1 that I got on sale at backcountry.com a few months ago (for a different purpose) and thought I had sent it back (it can still go back). It is a glorified bivy, I guess.

This isn't the wilderness. There IS potential for VERY serious exposure in which case I will be hauling ass (day or night) not pitching a tent. The ambient temperature is unlikely to be brutally cold in summer. There is a roof available every night on the HRP and a paved road is crossed daily if you time it right…and no, this doesn't require crazy long days. I have no problem using refuges. It is probably possible to get a new tent within a day at almost any point on the walk…yes, this could require a very long day and would no doubt require a ride.

Miguel, thanks for the scoop on the Tarptent! Interestingly, the manufacturer claims a one minute set up. I do use hiking sticks when I backpack. I now prefer the break apart ones but I don't see any reason why I couldn't go back to the telescoping variety (they alway seem to shorten on me). I will consider such shelter for the future when I have time to experiment. Any extra daylight, I should be out running an extra hour in the hills near my home or bouldering, not playing with tents so late in the game. For this walk, it would seem fitness and knowledge of the various routes and options would increase safety and comfort much more than having the "perfect tent" which does not exist anyway.

So, I really don't think this is a walk where it is all that important to dwell on the merits of various shelters. The difference between a 2+ lb and 5+ lb shelter is probably gonna be over 30% of my base weight. I'm not a "gram weenie" but that's a lot of weight!

I think my time might be better used trying to figure out how to be down off exposed ridges before the early afternoon.

So back to the perfect itinerary for such a traverse…and the peaks!

> Unna in wind:
A couple of faults there. I will assume that pitching in that position was deliberate, as a demo. (It HAD to be!)
First off, the Unna is not really meant to handle those conditions. Wrong tent.
Second, the guy lines are barely tight, so the poles can flex around a bit. Very dangerous with the long poles of a pop-up.
Third, the way the fabric at the sides was flapping shows that the windward feet of the poles had crept across the ground a bit. This happens with a pop-up, and is dangerous.
Fortunately the fabric is fairly tough and could take that. A higher wind might have been a different story.

> Nallo 2 in wind:
Very poorly pitched, and yet it survived. The tension in the fabric along the tent (from rear to front) is woefully inadequate. That is why the fabric is belling and flapping. The two ends should be at least 50 mm further apart imho, especially for those conditions. Yes, that means a tunnel tent (any tunnel) should be pitched so the fabric is a bit like a drum.
Doesn't help that the rear end, into the wind, is a bit too long and tapered. A shorter design there is stronger: better support for the pole.
But – it coped, despite all that.

Cheers

Hi Hartley

> It is probably possible to get a new tent within a day at almost any point on the walk.
Ahhhh … Not sure about that one. Yes, you could get clothing, day packs, trekking poles, joggers and boots, and climbing gear in many places you actually pass through or near. I had to replace some too-light joggers at one stage: not enough grip in the mud and snow!

But when we checked (out of curiosity) in any gear shops we saw, we found that overnight gear was usually missing. No sleeping bags, no tents, no air mats. The reason was simple – most people there do day walks, and those out overnight use the Refuges.
Even Au Vieux Campeur in Paris listed many tents as being only 'available to order'.

Cheers

OK Roger, I will take full blame for diverting this thread! Yes, the videos are silly. And it is a moot point as I would be either hauling ass to a refugio or enjoying a beer at the refugio. Anyway, you don't really even need a shelter to do the walk in the first place if you go light, have a reasonable level of fitness and plan well.

If you can get to a "gear shop", provided there is vehicular access to the gear shop, you can get to a larger metropolitan area and get a frickin tent if you need one! Alternatively, one can make alternative lodging arrangements for a night or two and meet up with a FedEx'd tent in a day or so. This ain't the Outback ;)

Hi Hartley

No worries. Good luck!

Cheers

LOL, luck helps!

I would prefer a night in a refuge…or moving…to a night in either of the tents featured in the videos. It would be highly unlikely on a walk like this that I would be hunkering down in either of those tents.

I am sorry if I am hijacking this thread but hopefully will help the op as well. I am also walking the HRP (Garvanie to the Med) starting 28 June. I did Hendaye to Garvanie a couple of years ago. I have noticed that Europe has had a lot of late snow this year. Any local knowledge of the current state of play on the central Pyrennees passes?

As to the shelter question I am taking my Hexamid and net inner. If it looks really bad I will head for the nearest refuge. If I get caught I just wrap myself up in it and spend an uncomfortable night.

"As to the shelter question I am taking my Hexamid and net inner. If it looks really bad I will head for the nearest refuge. If I get caught I just wrap myself up in it and spend an uncomfortable night." AMEN!

Welcome Mark! Let's get on to the important stuff!

Snowpack? Meteo for starters. http://france.meteofrance.com/france/montagne (Sorry to offend if you've already been here!) I also look forward to first hand reports. Thanks for bringing it up!

Thanks for that link Hartley. I knew about the meteofrance site for weather reports but had never come across the snowline section – really useful.

Hi mark

> starting 28 June
Um – that's fairly early. The Refuges usually don't open until 15-June. There could be some snow around still.

Cheers

Snow…Isn't that what the red button on my SPOT locator is for?

Yes, I am expecting snow! The white stuff!

I do not expect avalanche danger on the HRP to be unusually high mid summer to early fall.

Yes, there is some equipment I may want on parts of the walk that I don't want to carry from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean. This is surmountable.

Yes, there is a possibility that I will choose to alter my route based on snow conditions.

What if the Pyrenees are just SO socked in with snow in August that all the roads are closed and nothing is open? I will get on a bus or train and go walk somewhere else!

What if…

SNOW? SO!

Mark, will you be following Joosten, Veron, or making your own high route?

This is brilliant. I mention it because I have not seen it mentioned in the various guidebooks and blogs.

http://www.amazon.com/Pyrenees-Andorra-Adventure-Map-Numbered/dp/1566955408/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1370156143&sr=8-4&keywords=pyrenees

I am wondering if the 4 relevant FFRP books will suffice in terms of maps. I have never used these books but I have seen them in many refuges. I don't think I can do all the elaborate cutting and pasting of the Joosten recommended maps and end up with anything useful.

What have you guys used for walking maps?

Yes – a bit early to start, but organising 5 weeks off without cutting into teaching periods is always a problem. I may go from Banyuls to Garvanie – I will monitor the snow depth and decide my start point once I reach Toulouse. If it really is still bad I can always head elsewhere possibly the GR20.

Just hoping for a warm and sunny June in the Pyrennees.

I am generally following Joosten, I find Veron is very focussed on refuge to refuge leading to rather distorted stages. I feel Joosten's route is a better line. That said I have no issues about making my own route where necessary.

As to maps I have the 1:50,000 Rando Editions series, 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 21, 22, 23, 24 which cover the full route with the relevant sections photocopied. The four FFRP GR10 guides are not adequate especially when venturing into Spain.

Thought I'd chime in cause I did a HRP thru 3 years ago. I posted a bit on another thread too about a year or so ago.

Which route? The HRP (Joosten's) for sure–IF you have experience navigating, as the "route" is often not clear, especially the Basque region (By the way, try to catch a Basque traditional festival–the Basque people were very friendly and welcoming to me, proud of their heritage and really know how to party!). Cicerone has 500 GPS waymarks which would be very handy. The GR10/11 have greater ups and downs to bring you into towns. But that makes the going even harder.

Shelter: I used MLD's Trailstar and was very impressed. A bit big for one, but the I love how the design sheds winds from all directions and the shelter is stable; it performed extremely well through some big storms, and you will get big storms. Carry a shelter for flexibility and safety. I believe MLD now offers a smaller Trailstar which might work well for solo travel. I'd use the Trailstar again. You can also use the cabins–free of charge–of which there are many and are intended for people to use. They range from ancient dirt floor stone shepherd's huts to warm and cosy wooden cabins to purpose-built metal mountain shelters. The cabins and shelters, and the people I met at the shelters, were a highlight of my trip.

Snow: + 1 what Roger said: "we got to Merens one year a bit too early, looked at the range in front of us, and went and did something else. If the snow is still there, my recommendation would be just don't bother. OK, a patch of neve in a gully is not much of a problem, but wider cover … oops!" The year I was there was a big snow year with lots of snow left in some sections even in mid July. Your best bet for info is the person in charge of the refuge, not just anyone at the refuge. I had to divert off my planned route in a few places and glad I was cause even the diversion was a bit dodgy.

On the HRP you can easily resupply in villages about once per week with very good food choices (see my other post) and supplement with meals at refugios. I used a Bushbuddy and found it perfect in the Pyrenees because of plenty of available fuel which let me make endless brew-ups for myself and others I met on the way. Let me know if you have any other questions. Safe journey.

Is snow depth per se really the issue? If it's all packed out, I don't really care how deep it is. I don't much like sun cups! I don't want to post hole up to the hip. But walk on snow…what is the big deal?

I will probably pick up a light short axe and Katoohla spikes sent ahead. I will wear sneakers that weigh 8oz each and carry a pair goretex socks (I have found one meant for cycling that has good stretch and works well with such shoes and comes up about mid calf with a snug but not too tight band.). My shoes can accommodate this sock over Smartwool PhD light outdoor sock. I usually wear quarter socks and no gaiters as I walk in very lightweight trousers (lululemon studio pant)…always (I hate sunscreen!). I can tuck these pants into the goretex socks to keep snow out. (Yeah, the shoes get wet but dry real fast! Feet stay warm and dry.) I carry stretch waterproof pants as well…and these can be tucked into the goretex sock in deeper wetter snow. I can seal out snow to the waist. Fashion forward, eh?

I may, depending on reports, like to have access to a slightly stiffer soled sturdier pair of shoes (~11 oz each) and a pair of Grivel aluminum strap on crampons designed for sneakers. I already have this gear and have messed with it a bit.

A brand new pair of my go to shoes are highly unlikely to make it from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean…based on previous experience. I will have a second pair sent ahead. (I will do the Skurka suggested reinforcements beforehand.)

I will not be depending on local "gear shops" for my footwear. These shops may have something to my liking if they cater to the ultra crowd but by and large French people wear heavier shoes in the mountains, if not hiking boots or even full on mountaineering boots.

I will save the hands for later ;)

My pack will probably be a Talon 44…I am still messing with it. I am lean and bony through the pelvis and I need a proper pack. (And metal on bone…read Exos and the like…is a disaster for me!) I have been very satisfied with the Talon 33 (it seems very large for a 33!) but I don't think it will be big enough. I want everything inside the pack. The 44 fits a bit bigger than the 33 (both in smallest unisex size) and I have just about maxed out the adjustments in terms of length/hip belt/and sternum strap. This pack is going to "give" too. Hmmm.

I may just take the Big Agnes glorified bivy…with some hesitation. Dunno yet. I don't think you need Hilleberg for this. I admire Mark and Miguel's proficiency with the mentioned tents. I'm not there yet! I may decide on shelter at the last minute.

If anyone cares about brands or models, weights. I can report back after I get everything out. I have some very specific preferences. I may be able to answer your merino questions…ha. I like talking about undies too…well, panties and bras.

Mark, I would be interested to hear more about your gear philosophies and choices for the trip. Roger and Miguel too of course!

However, I think this sort of walking is more about strategy than gear!

This is a free for all! Thank you SO much for your insights. I am reading them now.

I preface this by saying that I do not have experience in using an ice axe on steep slopes. The issue with snow is that being a younger mountain range the Pyrenees is often much steeper than say the Alps. When I did the GR5 in 2004, several sections, mainly around Chamonix, were snow covered but were relatively easy to handle. However I felt the climb on steep snow slopes into the col de Brevant was pushing my boundaries although any slip would not have had super serious consequences. When I compare this to the passes I have crossed around Vignemale I know they are at the very edge of my skill set if snow covered. The passes further East, based on reading various accounts, are likely to be more "serieuse" as the French say.

I walk relatively slowly and find about 6 – 7 hours of the guide books is about right for a day. I stop a lot to enjoy my surroundings. Walk early to about noon, lunch and have a siesta if it is hot, then wander on till about 7pm. I like to get out of sync with the guide books and camp in relatively remote locations rather than use a refuge.

My style is definitely at the edge of UL. I expect my base weight to be a bit over 4kg and will add in 1kg of nonessential camera and electronics (phone, GPS and SPOT).
Shoes – Salomon Synapse low cut non-waterproof – the comfiest I have ever have worn – with Dirtygirl gaiters.
Pack – Laufbursche Huckepack mainly built in Dyneema X about 40 litres 465g – one of the few packs that can be tailor made in a wide range of fabrics.
Sleeping – Zpacks Hexamid with SMD Serenity inner (used a SMD Gatewood Cape last time), MYOG quilt & Neoair.
Cooking – A hack of a MSR Superfly and Fire Maple 116T for multi-canister adaptability, windscreen and Ti pot.
Food – omnivorous but simple. Lots of couscous and tuna for dinner, cheese, saucisson and dried fruit for lunch, muesli for breakfast.