The SUL Mindset

[Tony Wong]

Lightweight, UL, SUL….labels are goals to strive for have their place in conjunction to a goal of enjoying the outdoor experience.

Any assigned value of the label associated with inflating someone's ego is indicative of that person's short comings.

Going lighter is merely means to an end, not an end all to itself unless gear is your porn….gear masturbationf for gear's fetish sake.

However, discussions about labels gets away from the point of it all.

What does the SUL backpacker have to offer the rest of us?

What skills, knowledge, or wisdom have they learned that they care share with the rest of us to help us evolve on our own lightweight evolution?

The fringe always influences the center.

UL was the crazy fringe at one point, which influenced the mainstream, which has seen a light weight revolution of its own.

Perhaps the bar has been moved and SUL is now the new fringe, which can teach us some new tricks?

I will likely never become SUL, but my mind is always open to new ideas to consider and to see what works for ME. HYOH.

I am excited to learn more and here more about SUL backpacking.

Maybe I will think that 98% of it is crazy for ME, but if I can learn one useful thing that helps me on my our lightweight journey, then it is all good!

-Tony

[Roger Caffin]

> But then how do I quantify how cool I am?
The way any other spin doctor does: you make up meaningless statistics and quote them confidently.
:-)

Cheers

[Anonymous]

"But then how do I quantify how cool I am?"

By publishing a gear list with the price of every item beside it. Add it all up and, VOILA, instant coolness. Sort of like the rich kid in high school that drove a rag top BMW to school every day.

[Anonymous]

"So if this game is no longer about pack weight, but instead about "honing the edge", then why even differentiate between SUL/UL?"

Probably to get folks' attention, which he clearly has, and to establish a frame of reference using terms with which everyone is familiar. I, for one, look forward to seeing what he comes up with, particularly in regards to technique. He pretty clearly states that the development of Cuben has finally made the exerise feasible, so in that regard, it is a technical update of UL for application to high altitude mountain travel. Will's a very savvy guy, and I say let's hear him out. He's the last person I'd expect to make a fetish out of labels like SUL, M-SUL, whatever.

[Mary D]

While my pack is now at the weight and comfort level with which I'm quite happy, and I have no real desire to work harder or spend more $$$ on reducing it further, there's always something more to learn, and I'm hoping to pick up some ideas from these articles. If I can get rid of another pound or two of pack weight without reducing my comfort or going broke, fine. If not, that's fine, too! I've looked at the "SUL" stuff for ideas but rejected much of it as too spartan for my old bones and joints (which require increasing warmth and cushioning as they get older). However, I figure that if I ever stop looking at things "outside the box," it's time to curl up my toes and die. Lord willing, I'm not there yet!

Even if I don't change a single thing, these articles will still be interesting, and I look forward to reading them.

[John Hendriks]

I would have to agree with Mary D. Always look at the new frontiers and at the moment that might be SUL. It provides and opportunity to consider and review what one can add or replace in the pack. Anything that will allow those old bones to do just one more trip to some out of the way place. It is always a compromise and there is always room for improvement.

I note that there was one mention of "dispense with the GPS + Spot + PLB" after all why not use compass and map. Maybe I got this wrong. Even UL I would never go without a PLB. Too many times, in remote areas, I have nearly placed a foot on a snake: brown, tiger, taipan, and I imagine the US would have similar surprises. And it is not just for me but for others I walk with to ensure some piece of mind.

I look forward to the next installment.

[Serge Giachetti]

I'm surprised this has been so provocative for people. I don't think that it was Will or Ryan's intention to re-assert SUL as an important social category, but rather, as the article says, as a mindset. If you fixate on the concept as a public form of distinction, then it quickly becomes a petty way to differentiate yourself by the gear you carry.

When I come back from a trip, I just say I went backpacking. Its not important for me to differentiate in most situations. However, when I'm packing and planning for a trip, the mindset is everything. Similarly, if I'm planning a big trip with a friend, and I have a 6 lb base weight and they have a 10lb base weight, you can bet that I'll be doing what I can to balance that out or take more of the load depending on their fitness. Its not because I care if my partner is 'UL' or 'SUL', its because depending on the terrain and the mileage, it might be the difference between finishing the trip or bailing, or at least the difference between pleasure and suffering. I'm skiing a peak in RMNP tomorrow with a forecast of T-storms in the early afternoon. Its a good day to leave behind the thermos.

So, yeah, the attitude between UL and SUL is of the same category, but there is a difference in degree thats makes a practical and experiential difference in the mountains. Knowing the types of trips that Will does, and having traveled the same terrain, I've got no doubt that the difference between a 6 and 9 lb base weight is an important one, not for blabbing about here in the forums, but to carry on your back along with 4 days of food while you scramble up a remote pass in the Weminuche. It might literally be the difference between fun and suffering.

Its likely that I'll never use the word M-SUL again in my life (unless I hike with one of ya'll!), but for sure its a poignant concept that I already use. For me its just about being as light and mobile as possible while maintaing a healthy degree of safety and protection in the mountains. With modern lightweight equipment, I can carry a kindle, a fry pan, an SLR and a spacious tent and still be under a UL 10lb base weight (which is awesome!), but for the majority of the trips I've been looking at for this year, I will definitely leave that stuff behind in favor of a faster and simpler setup. For me, 6ish lbs is a good target weight.

[Miguel Arboleda]

As I stated earlier in the comments, I loved this (and Will's) article. I loved the playfulness and the sheer pleasure in practicing something we all love doing. The sense of looking forward seems markedly different from so many of the articles over the last two years.

My only beef with the focus on SUL and seemingly tossing aside of the word "ultralight", was that people who still "only" practice their weight carrying at the UL level are still being conscientious about their weights and still being ruthless in what they choose to carry. It is still going light. I think SUL is great, but going UL is no slouching matter either. And I think it is still something to be proud of when you reach those weights and that kind of simplicity. In an aside to Ryan's generous philosophy about SUL, I'd like to say that there is no need to flaunt any of the weights you carry. As long as there is a big smile on your face, and you're walking where you want to walk, and you wake up the next morning ready for more, UL is something just as impressive as SUL. Maybe it's the implied sense of smugness that makes me raise my eyebrow, the people who seem to need to set themselves up as "experts" because they carry SUL or lighter weights. As an exercise and a way to challenge yourself, wonderful! I, too, want to reach SUL loads, for my personal growth over all these years with lightweight backpacking. But "expertise" in backpacking has so many different ways of being interpreted. A heavy backpacker might have skills an SUList doesn't, and vice versa. The rivalry here is wonderful, too. It helps us all go beyond what limits we set for ourselves. But to me it is more discomfiting, and discouraging, to focus on who are the "elites" (thereby setting up a hierarchy), than to argue the (petty) differences between the terms SUL and UL. The second is harmless. The first often makes people who can't reach those weights feel like they are doing something wrong, when actually they aren't.

Does that mean I feel that talk about SUL should stop? No, of course not. It is a worthy, and exciting, goal. And if you can reach it and do it with safety, then you will have taken a step beyond your old paradigm. I love learning like this. That's why UL attracted me in the first place. The sense of accomplishment shines out more than only having bagged a particularly grueling peak.

I do have one gripe that has been eating at me for a long time… why do SULists (and ULists) often insist that the clothing they wear is not to be counted as part of the weight they are carrying? It's still weight, no matter where it is. You still have to carry it. A completely honest gear list and weight check would necessarily include everything you are wearing and carrying, whether in your pack or on your body, no?

[John S.]

Miguel, I think there is very little true honesty in gearlists. People hide weights so they can appear SUL or lighter. The easiest category to hide items is the worn/carried weight where items are stuffed into pockets so they won't show up in a packed base weight. Also, journaling items (cameras, etc) may not be included in weights. So, take most posted gearlists with a "gram" of salt ; ).

Below are the only items that I think should be included in a worn/carried weight, and sometimes I wonder whether trekking poles really should be there.

Hat
Eyewear
Baselayer/Shirt
Gloves
Wristwatch
Underwear
Pants
Socks
Shoes
Trekking poles

[Miguel Arboleda]

LOL! Oh I do, John! But if people are not going to be 100% honest about their gear lists then any talk about "expertise" or reaching some storied goal is just that, "talk". And it defeats the purpose of a gear list.

[Jennifer Mitol]

Yeah, I also wonder about the worn weights…it does matter how much you have to hoist up the side of a mountain no matter where it is on your person.

But then, looking forward, at what point do we start paying attention to, say, "spine-out" weights? Sure it's easy to drop some serious coin on lots of fancy cuben gear (mmmm….cuben…….), but if you are carrying 20 extra pounds around your middle, talk about some serious weight savings! So at what point, if we wish to include EVERYTHING you are carrying, do we need to consider BMI??

I'm so completely with Mary's point: I have done such a good job thanks to all of you guys trimming my pack weights, even though I am currently in the absolute worst shape of my life I can hike hikes twice as far as I could with my 40 pound pack and my marathon-running legs, still leaving my more fit friends panting in the dust. I make some amends to my aging and a bit arthritic bones (yeah downmat!!) but that makes me happy. If I learn new ways to trim a bit more, then great! If not, that's great too.

Now if I could just manage to drop those 20 pounds…..

[Paul Magnanti]

"Similarly, if I'm planning a big trip with a friend, and I have a 6 lb base weight and they have a 10lb base weight, you can bet that I'll be doing what I can to balance that out or take more of the load depending on their fitness."

Seriously?

I don't even known (or care!) what the weight my friends carry in their pack.

I do know they are all competent outdoors people who carry light loads and have what they need dialed in. If they are four pounds more than me, I ain't exactly gonna shift gear around to balance things out. Then again, I wouldn't know that either. :) Now, if I take a group of different people (Mrs Mags for example) I'll pay more attention. But on a big trip where people are expected to be a little more self sufficient and (the very important part) the are people I've know for a long time? Not-so-much.

Look, SUL, UL, BINGO, ABC-123, are just labels that are guidelines and not the goals themselves. At least IMO.

I think the goal is to get out there and use the gear that meets your own personal definition of safety, comfort and desired trip goals while going as light as possible.

When you start obsessing if the Chap Stick in someone'e pocket should count towards their BPW or if your backpacking partner has two more pounds then you in his pack, then perhaps you are losing site of the goal. OTOH if you omit the Chap Stick just to get to some weight, that is just as kooky aw well. :)

Suspect the tile of the article is SUL *MINDSET* and not SUL *EXCEL SPREAD SHEET* for a reason. ;)

PS.I do spring skiing in the Rockies as well (Example: Mt. Toll, which is reasonably big day IMO). Don't take a thermos..but I did pack two cans of Fat Tire. ;)

[Jeffs Eleven]

Mags, I've aways wondered what was up with your avatar.

That's hilarious! We took a few Eastside Deli (mmmmmm!) sandwiches on the Wonderland with us. Two days in to the hike having a deli sammich?!? Yessss!

Here's my buddy with the watermelon he hiked up Mt Defiance in the Gorge. Did it with a cantaloupe last time. Fresh melon is the best! Kinda sugary for just two people though.

///

[W I S N E R !]

"Seriously?

I don't even known (or care!) what the weight my friends carry in their pack."

Unless it comes down to beer. Then I worry about what my friends are carrying.
When everyone else has a six pack and I have a twelve pack, I get nervous because I know the sorry b@stards will run out and be eying my stash before long…

[Michael Gillenwater]

or unless after 3 miles they are exhausted and whining about how they need a break and not sure they can make it as far as you planned.

[HkNewman]

Just depends. Not sure about paying for all the additional kit, .. but if needing to do really high mileage (or getting real old), it's worth considering.

[Tom Clark]

Miguel,
One reason to separate your clothing weight from pack weight is due to the fact that 5 pounds of clothing has less of an impact on you than 5 pounds in your pack. Since the pack sticks out further from your center of gravity than clothing it exerts a greater effect (the bending moment increases 8 times with just twice the distance from your center). Just take your pack then hold it either close to you than extend your arm to see the effect.

[Billy Ray]

you guys are making my head hurt…

the weight of all this philosophizing and pontificating is too much to carry in my pack!!!

I think I need to go backpacking… some heavy breathing and blessed exhaustion to clear my head of all this…! :)

bill

[Jamie Shortt]

I'm extremely excited to see a series on SUL. I really like this first article and want to see more. I particularly connected with the statement "I get far more personal satisfaction about practicing skills when faced with a challenge, than when relying on an advanced piece of gear to meet that challenge." If there is one thing I have found that SUL means to me is simplicity more so than weight.

I admit I don't always have the exact piece of gear to cover every situation. I also admit that I am not always comfortable. But these are not the reasons I travel the mountains. Heck if I wanted every item for every situation and I wanted comfort then I'd stay home. The discomfort and reliance on my skills over gear has taught me a lot about myself and it brings me great joy.

I also admit I worked hard to make achieve my first 5 lb trip and having a target was extremely helpful. Some of you may even remember my post some years ago. I was and am still today truly humbled by the responses I received from this community. That included one that I will always remember from Ryan himself.

I do to this day keep a detailed list of each item I carry for every trip. Its just part of my planning process. I still use the information to learn and teach myself. I only get to backpack 3-4 times a year so its not a big deal. Yes I can pack a 5 lb pack in probably 5 minutes for a 32 degree trip without any spreadsheet, but I still spreadsheet because its part of the fun.

The only part of the article and responses I had trouble with was a reference to competitiveness and words like "cheating". You guys can see my gear lists on my website. I post them out of gratitude to those that have taught me so much, a way of giving back. Gear lists from Ryan and others helped me so much. I have just never felt like I was in a competition or trying to beat anyone or brag about how much I do or do not carry. I have only felt gratitude.

In all candor I have been hanging back not posting much over the last year because the atmosphere seemed to be changing. Instead of helping and challenging and learning, I read more and more posts with references to "stupid light", "cheater", and "you can't do that". Heck there was recently a post from someone asking about bivy and 5×8 tarp and the first responses were NO YOU CANT DO THAT. I wanted to reply YES YOU CAN, but just said what's the use things have changed here.

I hope this is the beginning of coming back to saying YES YOU CAN. And stopping all this talk about competition. There never was a competition and I don't care if you list your chap stick in your pocket. These things don't matter to me.

What matter's to me is to continue to learn and support others in enjoying the great outdoors in ways that I never knew was possible…before I found BPL.com.

Keep these articles coming.

Jamie

[Miguel Arboleda]

the weight of all this philosophizing and pontificating is too much to carry in my pack!!!

It's fun talking about all this, even on a philosophical level. To me it adds dimension to the practice, and helps steer thinking about what it is we're trying to achieve. After all, the "philosophizing" and "rationalizing" came before the first actual move to redefine how one carries everything. It was the philosophy that gave shape to the whole movement, and that philosophy evolved over time.

Jamie, I still keep referring to your visual gear lists, both on your site and the printed copies, whenever thinking about my own gear lists. It's still one of the best I've ever seen. I've never thought of you competing, but always as a humble practitioner who has really challenged yourself. I love the simplicity of your thinking and your ability to get the gear down to the very bones. It's poetic, even. And I very much admire that. I still remember the transition you went through and the steps you took with each trip to lighten up more. I even remember every photo you took, both of the gear, and the trips. You've inspired me a lot.

The gear lists I keep returning to time and time again are yours, Glen Van Peski's, Andrew Skurka's (though usually far too ambitious for me), Ryan's (though they change so often I get confused), and Alan Dixon's. There are others, of course, but these are the one's that have made me take a hard look at my own gear and to rethink, again and again, how I carry things. Each one reminds me of haiku, each a little different, each with a personality all its own. It may sound ridiculous to those who are completely practical, but after taking UL seriously now for nigh on 15 years, the nuances have become part of an aesthetic appeal. And for me this is part of the fun of all this.

There are those who are completely honest about their lists, and those who are not. And those who very much do make it into a competition, and those who don't. I really don't see anything wrong with friendly rivalry and making the whole exercise into a game, which is what it is, basically. It's a lot of fun. But when people start speaking the way you described above, well, that is going too far. That's the kind of competition that puts a sour taste in my mouth. And undermines the beauty and fun in doing all this.

Tom, about the weight being worn. Good point about the way weights are carried in different points along a fulcrum. But that still doesn't remove the weight from the equation. When climbing a hill, the more weight you have, the harder the climb, whether or not there is a fulcrum to deal with. It's the same as the adage about wearing boots, "A pound on your feet is five pounds on your back." (which, admittedly, does, in part, have something to do with a fulcrum) It's still weight. If you had a backpack that piled all the gear weight straight up above your head so that there was no pulling back of the pack, would that make a difference? That would still be weight, too, and wouldn't carry any less heavily if the weight was high. You'd still have a hard time getting up the hill.

Jennifer, very good point about body weight! How exactly would you measure that and then do something about it? And yet that is weight nonetheless, too. And matters. And then there would be factors like how strong you are, how efficient your cardiovascular system in being able to carry weight for a long time or over rough terrain, how determined you are, and how much pain you can tolerate. Oy, the consequences spiral out of control!

[Cayenne Redmonk]

I like to camp exposed with big scenery. I'd rather carry suitable gear that makes my vacation enjoyable, than functional gear for traveling from A to B that compromises what I enjoy most.

SUL seems to be a lot of "skill" instead of gear.

Cold in the morning ?, break camp and use your skill at walking in the dark to warm up.

Want an epic storm photo ?, use your google skill to download one from a heavyweight photographer who posted up in conditions your kit won't take.

Need to save weight in water treatment ?,use your skill at evaluating the water by eye and use too few drops for a couple of minutes as needed.

Want to enjoy your camp ?, use your skill to convince yourself your happier walking than watching.

I think SUL is a mindset, but I see lots of people enjoying themselves with double or triple a SUL base, and not struggling to carry it.

[Paul Magnanti]

"or unless after 3 miles they are exhausted and whining about how they need a break and not sure they can make it as far as you planned."

See above about knowing my friends, how they are knowledgeable and pack light already. Just don't know what they carry to the lb..never mind the ounce. :)

If the above situation in quotes happened, then I need new friends! :D

When I did trips for an outdoor group (or work as an asst guide), sure we'll look through the packs..but that's a much different scenario. Much like
I said in my post above.

re: Watermelon

Nature's candy. Absolutely delicious!

re: Beer

Yes…VERY good point. But I am well known to pack in the good chow and wine on hut trips. And more than the occasional libation on weekend backpacks. ;)

On a more important note, took a hike today. The wildflowers are out in force in the Boulder foothills. Pasque flowers are blooming, sand lily are popping up and the overwhelming color is green. Beautiful time to be in the Boulder foothills!

[Brian Lindahl]

"The gear really hasn’t changed that much. Down sleeping quilts are still down sleeping quilts, and they’re still light. Backpacks made with whisper thin fabrics that tear to shreds in brambles and can’t hold sewn seams when they’re loaded with food are still around. “SUL” tents still don’t hold up to mountain storms very well. There’s been no drama in materials engineering for titanium, carbon fiber, or fabrics that weigh less than 0.5 oz per square yard."

I'd disagree. Innovations in materials and gear over the past few years have definitely changed the landscape. The main one being cuben fiber. Lightweight gear is now finally becoming readily available from mainstream manufacturers as well (particularly, of note, rain jackets and down jackets). Innovations in shelters have turned out more unique shaped tarps, such as the Hexamid and Trailstar, which provide a lot more coverage, stormworthiness and ease of setup than previously used tarps, but yet are not pyramids, which tend to be heavier and isolated from the environment. There are a TON more choices in terms of backpacks available from cottage manufacturers as well.

That being said, I agree with the rest of the article.

[Rod Lawlor]

Craig,

I'm all over that! I don't care what my mates carry on a trip. I have no idea if they pack heavier or lighter than me. But I make very certain I call the beer situation in the first communication that we have about the trip. Ie I'm taking a six pack for the weekend, what are you taking?

I'm happy to share my chips and jerky, but the beer is mine, my friend.

[Serge Giachetti]

"seriously?"
Fair enough :)
I guess that speaks more to how obsessive I can be about packing, than to a real situation. It does come up when I'm going with someone less experienced, and I want to shoulder more of the load. I'm also planning some oz sensitive ski tours where its well worth convincing my friend that the hexamid twin is in fact a two person shelter.

Somewhere along the way I got the idea that challenging myself physically in the wilderness was fun and beneficial. That means when I look at a map, I'm most attracted to routes that I don't really know if I can finish. It keeps me more engaged with the process from packing to nutrition and fitness, and the element of uncertainty adds to a sense of adventure. I've bailed enough that I want to give myself (and partner) the best chances of finishing. So, I save the fried chicken for afterward. There's no glory or recognition in these types of trips (and certainly not in my gear list), but I get a lot of personal satisfaction from them. Its a particular approach thats not for everyone, and not one I always practice, but its where I find the M-SUL concept most useful.

I haven't drank alcohol in a long time, and given my personality type, if I start bragging about how much I pack in, you have full permission to worry about me. And please, lets not shift the measure of 'coolness' from lack of oz to abundance of alcohol or heavy delicious fruit. Human powered travel in the mountains is pretty cool in general, eh?

[Author]

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