UL shovel mandatory?

Might help if you identify what "campfire permit" you're referring to.

In regard to my California NF fire permit, if asked if I have a shovel, I reply, "Yes," having my QiWiz "Big Dig shovel in mind. I've never been asked more than that. In forty years of backpacking, I've never carried a "regulation" shovel, nor have I been asked to produce one.

I was backpacking with one buddy in Yosemite National Park, when we smelled smoke in one small area. We walked around and found a smouldering fire under the ground surface where some others had camped. We each carried one long SMC metal snow stake for shelter purposes, so we used those as shovels. Then a platypus of water got it finished.

–B.G.–

Steve, I've been thinking along the same line as you. I have one of Rob's new Mega Dig trowels, which I plan to use to scoop campfire coals under my Zia grill. I wonder if a simliar, but much larger, "shovel" could be made the same way as the QiWiz trowels. I need to contact Rob Kelly about this. Does anyone know what the USFS considers a minimal size for their required shovel?

Backpacking stoves are exempt from fire restrictions.

The California campfire permit defines a campfire as wood fires, charcoal fires, and portable gas stoves using gas, jellied petroleum or pressurized liquid fuel. The terms of the permit require you to have a shovel for a campfire at all times.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5404941.pdf

I would never carry a shovel backpacking for a fire or stove. That rule is for car campers. Yeah, I guess you could get ticketed for it. Any ranger who tickets a backpacker for not having a shovel with their backpacking stove is a complete asshole.

agree with gob

Since the size of shovel is not specified, a trowel should appease the Man.

Since the regs do not define what is meant by a shovel, or what the dimensions must be, it would seem to me that the worst case scenario on showing off your Big Dig to an inquisitive ranger would be a warning to bring a bigger shovel in future.
A MEGA Dig is bigger than a Big Dig, BTW, and still less than an ounce.

That's what I just said. Without the shameless plug!

Antiquated language on the permit. Remember folks, these are not written by a legal department and are clearly not enforced enough to be questioned.

Technically you can get fined for not having a shovel with a stove. However Justin is right, you'd have to have a real pain of ranger to ticket you (or be less than friendly yourself, giving them reason to not be nice). So really the only way I'd worry about getting a ticket is if I was an asshole…

"Since the regs do not define what is meant by a shovel, or what the dimensions must be, it would seem to me that the worst case scenario on showing off your Big Dig to an inquisitive ranger would be a warning to bring a bigger shovel in future. "

This scenario makes me giggle. Looking forward to it almost. "See sheriff, I DO have a shovel, *waves titanium potty trowel* and I think the judge will agree I have complied with the letter of the law. *spit* Now if you'll pardon me, I have a train to rob." Still, no sillier that asking someone with a canister stove to carry a shovel to put out all those underground embers he/she created. If it ever got that far there would have been quite a fireworks show as the canister exploded. Anyway, most of the rangers I have met were far, far more sensible than either the folks who wrote the regs, or the average campers they run into, so I'm not too worried.

Thank you all. In the old days, the Campfire Permit did mention the minimal size a shovel had to be. Only one Campfire Permit, nothing for only wood campfires, one just for stoves, one just for bpers etc.
I was off motorcycle camping this weekend.
Duane