Trail Designs stove replacement?

[Packman Pete]

I just smooshed my TD 12-10 stove. Is there some easy replacement I can use to give decent results in my caldera cone? I am considering a fancy feast can with no holes punched. Should deliver a flame similar(?) to the original stove. Any others have experience with this? I know there's tons of stove experts here.

Thanks!

[Chad B]

A lot of people seem to have pretty good results with the modified Starlyte burner from Zelph.

[Hikin’ Jim]

I just smooshed my TD 12-10 stove. Is there some easy replacement I can use to give decent results in my caldera cone? I am considering a fancy feast can with no holes punched. Should deliver a flame similar(?) to the original stove. Any others have experience with this? I know there's tons of stove experts here.

I doubt that a simple cat food can would give you the same efficiency as a 12-10 stove, but you could try it. The interior of the cone is a high heat, low oxygen environment, and you need a stove that works well in that environment. I haven't tried a simple open cup like you're suggesting, but I suspect the thermal feedback might make it burn too hot.

Personally, I'd probably just give Trail Designs a call and grab another 12-10. The Starlyte has also gotten pretty high marks in a cone, although I haven't tried it.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Link .]

Yes definitely the Starlyte
here
here
and here ,second burner on page.

[Mole J]

Starlyte works well.
also made and used a mini chimney in my cone for 2 years before the Starlyte.
http://zenstoves.net/ChimneyStove.htm.

[Packman Pete]

The Starlyte is cool!

What I meant was I am off to the hills this afternoon, so I don't have time to order anything. I just wanted a simple MYOG type stove to bring along. My brother has a canister stove that works fine, but I'm an alcohol-olic. I wanted to dazzle him with sheer awesomeness. I'm using a ti caldera cone with a fosters can pot, by the way.

[Mole J]

well, if it helps, I sucessfully had 7, 14 yr old Scouts make the mini chimney stove last week in just an hour ( with all the chaos that a mixed group of raucous teens entails!).

with only a sharp penknife and a bit of practical savvy, 15 minutes is possible

[Dan Yeruski]

The Fancy Feast can, no holes, should give you decent results for your short term adventure. Use only 1/2 ounce fuel to begin with on first try. Adjust fuel as required to get boil.

Using too much fuel in the 12-10 is not recommended by me. Testing of the Caldera Cone under glass has given me a wealth of information. That's another thread oops.

Buy a small bag of vermiculite at kmart in the garden center and add some to the can to absorb the fuel. Go to the kitchen wares dept and get a small stainless steel sink drain cover and use the mesh to smoosh down over the vermiculite to hold it in. You got the general idea and can make it work. We have confidence in you :-)

enjoy your adventure PackmanPete

[Steven Paris]

Sorry to hijack, but this may helpful anyway since Dan has chimed in with the MYOG stove above:

I just received my starlyte the other day (thanks, Dan). How much fuel should I start with for the Starlyte? 1/2 oz? Also, I'm assuming I just pour fuel directly into the top, but do I need any fuel "spilled" around the top or sides to prime it? Thanks!

[Packman Pete]

Wow, you all are great!
I am heading off to the store to get some stove makin' supplies. Thanks!

[Dan Yeruski]

Steven, start out with 1/2 ounce denatured alcohol or other fuel of choice. No need to pour any fuel on the outside of it as required with the 12-10 in cool temps. Pour fuel directly on top of the stainless steel screen. Even though the StarLyte has a capacity of 1.5 ounce, use only what's needed to boil your water.

I would suspect that many times we will be distracted away from the heating water and only come back to it long after it has boiled, wasting fuel and over heating the stove in an enclosed area such as the cone. I suspect that is why the 12-10 are easily smooshed/crushed when trying to store them with other items inside a pot. The over heating is annealing the aluminum to the max.

Some of you may remember the movie "Backdraft" Billowing flames accumulate at the ceiling and work their way down towards the floor. I suspect that is what is happening inside the Caldera Cone especially when too much fuel is used. Once the water comes to a boil in your pot, heat is no longer being absorbed and creates very high temperatures inside the cone. The high temps will then have an adverse affect on the stove. In some photos on the internet you can clearly see the discolorations on the cones showing the areas of "high" heat.

[James Marco]

Dan,
"Once the water comes to a boil in your pot, heat is no longer being absorbed and creates very high temperatures inside the cone."
Google: Phase Change

You will find that the temperture remains faily constant but the heat of vaporization takes heat away at around 100C. The stove doesn't heat up anymore as long as there is liquid water in the pot.

[Packman Pete]

So if I understand you correctly, the energy (heat) produced by the stove will be absorbed by the liquid water as it goes through it's phase change to water vapor. And it won't linger around and overheat the stove itself? I guess that makes sense-at the boiling point the energy is constantly being withdrawn from the pot into the atmosphere through the steam.

On another note, I usually heat my water up with 0.5 oz of Heet. If it boils, great. If not, it's always very hot. Is there some reason why boiling water is better for coffee or rehydrating meals, as opposed to very hot water?

[Bob Gross]

"Is there some reason why boiling water is better for coffee or rehydrating meals, as opposed to very hot water?"

Foods are all different. Some dry powders rehydrate fine with cold water. Others are better with hot water. Some really do best with boiling water. Some freeze-dried meals really need a lot of hot soaking, so starting with fully boiling water works best. Some people really prefer the aroma from their instant mix when it mixes with boiling water.

Besides, in some situations you might be concerned about water quality. Boiling the water kills nearly everything in the water. Getting the water almost to boiling is pretty good also, but every little bit helps.

–B.G.–

[Dan Yeruski]

James,
That is true, I stand corrected, but. The rate of heat loss due to vaporization is miniscule compared to the amount being produced within the cone. Agree?

Before the boil, heat from within the cone is transferred through the wall of the pot at a fast rate. Once the boil occurs, the transfer rate decreases dramatically.

The area within the cone becomes an oven that keeps getting hotter and hotter.

Keep in mind that the stove is not touching the bottom of the pot in the case of the 12-10 there is no possible way for the stove to maintain the same temperature as the pot which is 212 degrees No heat is being drawn away from the stove. It's heating up inside the oven. The flames of the stove are still producing an enormous amount of heat in close proximity of the stove.

[James Marco]

Dan,
"That is true, I stand corrected, but. The rate of heat loss due to vaporization is miniscule compared to the amount being produced within the cone. Agree?"
No. Water picks up heat at ~100cal/gram. Water->steam takes ~500cal/gram.
Actually a phase change water->steam consumes MORE heat than simply heating the water by about 5 times.

"Before the boil, heat from within the cone is transferred through the wall of the pot at a fast rate. Once the boil occurs, the transfer rate decreases dramatically."
Nope. Heat transfer rates are pretty much governed by the material type and thickness. The difference between 99C and 100C is ~100cal/gram as above. Add in the difference for the pot and you are done. It becomes a steady state system boiling water. It does NOT get hotter than the inside water, (well, not quite true maybe by a couple degrees due to the insulating effect of the metal. But the difference would stay the same same, pretty much, through out the boil cycle. At the low temps you are talking about, ie boiling water, it tends to stay the same.) Open metal is another story, it will conduct heat and accumulate if there is no water, but steam will cool it. Soo, it will have a higher heat. But not that high. Example: like soldering a pipe with water in it, you cannot do it. Though you might slab solder over it.

"The area within the cone becomes an oven that keeps getting hotter and hotter."
Well, maybe. There are other avenues for heat to disburse. IR is one. Vents are another. If you don't have enough vents, then the flame is limited by flue gasses. Not enough oxygen to burn. It will usually just form a new steady state system, not continue to accumulate heat.

"Keep in mind that the stove is not touching the bottom of the pot in the case of the 12-10 there is no possible way for the stove to maintain the same temperature as the pot which is 212 degrees No heat is being drawn away from the stove. It's heating up inside the oven. The flames of the stove are still producing an enormous amount of heat in close proximity of the stove."
No. Infra red radiation is disbursed. Alcohol boils cooler than water, even inside a stove. You are right, the stove will NOT be at the same temp as the pot. Once a burn has gone on for a couple minutes, it should NOT heat up till the very end, as fuel is mostly gone. The radiant energy (IR energy) IS feeding back and the flame IS still producing heat. It can over heat at this point. But, this is a few seconds at most. The fuel, alcohol is assumed, boils off, exactly like water boils off in a pot. It maintains a steady temp. The last bit will "flash" off still burning, leaving bare metel, then go out. If damage occurs to the 12-10, this is when it will happen. It can anneal the edges of the stove, I have several where this has occured. But it doesn't hurt anything, really. It works fine for over 1000 burns. It is fairly well designed, as good as any alcohol stove. If this worries you, you can add a bit of water, it will cool the flame a bit. With enough water, it will stay in the bottom of the stove, keeping it cool. Not really necessary, though.

As far as the OPs question, many stoves will overheat in the cones. Penny stoves, and cat stoves do not work well. Brasslite makes one that does work, but it is too tall. I made up a couple other verions that work well under a cone.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=52666&startat=20

The pleated stove or Apalo or something like that, can be cheated for length to give the output needed. This was a couple years go, as I remember. I made the stoves a couple years before that.

Many alcohol stoves don't work under a cone, not enough air inlets, not enough exhaust. too much heat, too little heat. built in pot stand or something. Chimney stoves work about the best.

[William Chilton]

James, maybe I'm not understanding this right:
"Water picks up heat at ~100cal/gram. Water->steam takes ~500cal/gram.
Actually a phase change water->steam consumes MORE heat than simply heating the water by about 5 times."
But isn't the rate at which the heat is being picked up important? During heating say 500g of water, all 500 grams are absorbing this heat. However, when vaporizing, not all the 500 grams are vaporized at the same time. How fast the water is being vaporized, and therefore how much heat is being absorbed, will depend on the width of the pot and how tightly the lid is closed.

[James Marco]

Yes. I glossed over this to explain about the concepts, not the finer points.

Water will boil at 1C. It will boil at 101C. It is a matter of "local" heat within the water and not seen as "boiling".

Seed particals on the pot, scratches, etc. It gets fairly complex. Not really suitable for a simple answer and brings up relativly complex math, STP, pressure differences at some depth of water, expansion of water into steam, etc. Most of which is lost to my earlier years, unfortunatly. Let me just say that it does not all boil at once…boiling only occurs in unpresurized systems, anyway. Boilers aren't, they are steam generators. For camping, once we hit boiling, we are done…an open system. I don't consider pot tops because even a 1/2pound of pressure per inch can start being dangerous to the pot or blow the top off easly. The old adge "blowing it's top" has real meaning in this context. So, at the boiling point, water will never get any hotter. You generally do not want to waste fuel by continuing. Some will say that 180F is good enough. How do you tell? I don't bring a thermometer. So, I just let it boil.
STP is a term chemist's use: Standard Temperature and Pressure. As with many things, simplisticly easy…it gets more and more complex the more you dig. STP says Temp and pressure are related mathematically, in its simplest form. Sort'a the *first step* to thermodynamics. Look it up if you are curious.

The width of the pot within limits, DOES effect the heat transfer. Hence we end up with Heat Exchangers that artificially increase the surface area of a pot. How tight the lid is on WILL effect the pressure. Too tight, and the boiler explodes, but, the more heat/energy it will hold. The cone will allow heating of the *sides* as well as the bottom, increasing available surface area. This is the primary benifit from the Caldera Cone. It increases available heating area. Generally, it is not too smart to fiddle with pressure on a thin pot. Pleating the bottom will add surface area. There ARE other solutions. Hence the preponderance of heat shields/wind screens and perpetual discussions about them. It is and remains a complex subject. Along with heat transfer, wind reduction, turbulence to break up laminar flows, heat flow at edges/sharp corners, IR radiation, absorption/reflection, thermodynamics(generally speaking,) even types of paint, etc. All will effect boiling water. More physics and more chemistry…

Do you need to know it? No. You put a pot over a heat source, fill with water, slap a lid on it and wait till it boils. You don't *need* any of the above to follow a few simple steps. But, people are curious. Me, too.

[Anonymous]

"Many alcohol stoves don't work under a cone, not enough air inlets, not enough exhaust. too much heat, too little heat. built in pot stand or something. Chimney stoves work about the best."

Interesting analysis, James. Follow on questions: How well do you think the modified Starlyte works in a cone? Would using a piece of aluminum foil as a pot top have any impact on increasing the efficiency of heating water? I never bring my water anywhere a boil, only to drinking hot, so I am not particularly concerned about pressure, only minimizing fuel usage.

Thanks,

Tom

[Bob Gross]

"Would using a piece of aluminum foil as a pot top have any impact on increasing the efficiency of heating water?"

Yes. Just about any kind of lid on a pot of water being heated will speed up the process by limiting the amount of heat lost directly from the top of the pot. Aluminum foil is better than nothing. Two or three layers of aluminum foil can be pressed together, and that works. I made a carbon fiber lid that works slightly better.

I just want the pot lid to be heavy enough that if the inevitable wind blows it off, I can catch up with it before it reaches the next county.

–B.G.–

[Packman Pete]

Thanks to your insight, I just ordered a modified starlyte stove for my fosters caldera keg.

I was wondering-will it fit inside the foster's can? I think the reason my original TD stove got smashed is that it fits in to the rolled cone and got loose in my pack. Rubber bands dont always stay put. I always wished the 12-10 stove would fit inside the pot, but I didnt want to grind off the priming ring.

Ill be more gentle this time, I promise.

[Dan Yeruski]

Packman Pete, yes, the StarLyte easily fits inside the fosters can. I'll ship yours out today….thank you.
.

James, I'm overwhelmed by your insight into boiling water and thermodynamics. It takes on a whole new meaning now. Thanks for your time to pass on your knowledge.

"Many alcohol stoves don't work under a cone, not enough air inlets, not enough exhaust. too much heat, too little heat. built in pot stand or something. Chimney stoves work about the best."

My Caldera-Keg acts like a tall chimney. It has an excessive amount of air being drawn up and out it's top holes. I did 2 boil tests using my Venom Super Stove. The stove is normally is easy going and keeps the flames under small diameter pot. The stove burned in a radical fashion right from the word go. It was not in an "overheated mode" right from the start of the test. The amount of air being pulled around the entire stove caused the radical burn. The first test was with the stove sitting on the glass table. The second test the stove was raised to be flush against the bottom of the pot. Both test showed the same visual results. Radical flames up the sides of the pot with some going out of the upper elongated slots of the cone. Those 2 test showed me the amount of air being drawn in and up the tall keg cone.

I then did a test using an Esbitmizer burner with one Esbit cube. It easily boiled 2 cups of 50 degree water. The esbit burned so long it could have boiled a full Foster's pot of water. More on that some other day.

The design of the Keg-cone is such that any stove used has to be set off center due to air coming in where the 2 sides of the cone are joined. My cone has a large opening at it's base where the joint is. A large amount of air enters at that point and immediately goes upward pulling the flames of the stove with it. I've been able to view this flame action using my tempered glass and mirror set-up.

[Packman Pete]

Well, my new stove is 'out for delivery' so I should be playing around with it this afternoon. There are a couple of things I have been wondering…

I am using a standard Foster's can with a titanium Caldera Cone. Should the Starlyte stove be raised up a little bit to decrease the gap between the flame and the bottom of the pot? Or should I snip a little bit off the bottom of the cone to shorten it and reduce the gap? Or should I be looking at other pots, like Zelph's new pot that fits into the cone a little bit deeper?

Or am I just assuming that the difference in height between the original Trail Designs stove and the new Starlyte stove is going to make any difference in stove performance. Maybe they're similar enough that I shouldn't worry.

I lack the patience that some of you have. I like the science and geek factor, but waiting around for everyhing to cool down to try another setup just drives me batty. I'm hoping your experience with this stuff will point me in the right direction and away from my occasional loss of sanity.

Thanks for all the input guys!

[Nick Gatel]

"I was wondering-will it fit inside the foster's can? I think the reason my original TD stove got smashed is that it fits in to the rolled cone and got loose in my pack. Rubber bands dont always stay put. I always wished the 12-10 stove would fit inside the pot, but I didnt want to grind off the priming ring."

Gee, my 12-10 fits perfectly in my Fosters can. The fact the bottom is a little larger than the diameter of the can makes it a perfect lid when packed. Use aluminum foil for the pot lid when heating water. When packing the stove invert it so the bottom of the stove is facing up. Store it in a cuben sack.

[Bob Gross]

The Trail Designs cone was designed with dimensions for optimal performance. What does that mean? It means it is a compromise between boiling speed and fuel economy. You can make the burner-to-pot spacing more or less depending on which way you want to shift the performance. If you get the normal spacing too small, you may generate more carbon monoxide, increased sooting, or have other similar effects.

–B.G.–

[Author]

Posts