Fleece reconsidered

I have a lightweight fleece vest that I wear in cold weather under my windshirt or my rain jacket, depending on whether or not it's precipitating at the time.

IMHO, the folks above who say fleece is best for insulation while moving while the puffy is best for insulation when sitting still, are correct!

del

where the softshell shines is in durability … i get pinholes very fast in windshirts climbing … if your softshell doesnt breath decently well and takes forever to dry, you got the wrong type of softshell … buy the unlined, non-membrane ones … they also tend to be the cheapest

the other part of synthetic puffies is that they are "additive" … that is you put them OVER your softshell/windshirt at belays … if you are ever at a hanging/semi-hanging belay with the wind howling and need to take off your windshirt, put on your fleece, put back on your windshirt, you know what i mean … with puffies you simply put on the needed layer without taking anything off …

that said im always a fan of fleece for a mid layer .. my current MEC r1 copy has enough holes to prove it …

a fleece is a great piece for newer people who dont need the fancy $$$$$ gear when they start out … buy it cheap and on sale …

as for fun in the wet … plenty of people in the PNW go out in wet conditions … i tend to ONLY "hike" in marginal to poor weather … if its not raining and dry enough, im climbing ;)

Fleece is good. One caveate that I may have missed is that these are usually recycled PET or similar. As such they do NOT take permethrin very well. It usually washes out. I don't even try. In the NE, with all the Blackfly's that show up in spring, I have to be carefull about which shirts I bring, though I far prefer the fleece as a sweater. Like good wool, they can maintain a certain amount of insulating value even if they are soaking wet. My puffy is reserved for after I get my tarp up at night, cooking supper, sleeping and in the morning getting breakfast and packing.

Rick M: “Being out in cold continuously wet weather for days on end does not sound like recreational Type 1 hiking fun to me! Sounds more like work or an endurance journey where circumstances force total disregard for conditions or short term forecasts. Learning when not venture out into the wilderness should be part of the basic UL skill set too.”

Fair enough.

I’ve started a new thread about this issue.

I agree Paul, both fleece AND wool (i also read and enjoyed your wool pants article) have their place depending on conditions. Re: wool pants, i also like these for colder temps, but i tend to use wool-poly blends–the poly for added durability and speeding up the drying time a bit, and the wool for odor control, moisture absorption, and naturally better breathability. I try to find pants with about a 60% wool to 40% poly blend + or – 10% in either fabric or direction. Then i soak the bottom half in nikwax.

We are going to Alaska in mid June to very beginning of July, and we will definitely be bringing some fleece.

For example, MEC's Watchtower pants, thick snug leggings of fuzzy unfaced fleece (not at all like sweatpants). They've been ideal as a seasonal midlayer, in cold rain, in camp and as sleepwear, for under 9 oz and under $40 (some $19, fyi). Now all my other bottom layers are four-season gear.

Thanks for the Mec tip B&B. I have experimented a bit with using the cheap micro fleece pajama/sleeping bottoms. Most of the ones i have weighed, weighed in from around 8 to 10 oz range. I just bought a pair the other day for 4 dollars. I'm just guessing, but maybe the Mec pants will be a bit more durable long term? Do you know if the MEC watchtower pants use micro fleece or regular? I like micro fleece because it's warmer per weight and more comfortable.

Hi Justin: the MEC pants are not a grid fleece. It's stretch-woven 100% polyester, 'furry' both sides, at least 1/4" thick. No membrane, highly breathable on its own (300 CFM). 245g/8.5 oz in medium.

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/MensClothing/PantsTights/PRD~5017-968/mec-watchtower-pants-mens.jsp

Thank you Bogs, i got that part earlier, was just wondering if the stretch woven polyester fibers are more the microfiber size or more the classic fleece size. One easy way to tell is by the softness. Microfiber fuzzy fleece will feel noticeably softer than regular fuzzy fleece. Microfiber (anything) will trap more air and thus be warmer, and depending on density/tightness of weave, usually for a lower weight. Can repel water better too depending on density/tightness of weave.

I don't think its an either or. I use fleece insulation to be warm enough when moving and puffys to go over top for breaks.

So for summer in the rockies I don't bring a fleece as a long sleeve base layer plus a rain shell while moving is good to zero degrees for me.

In winter, spring and fall the MEC R1 clone or the MEC T2(lighet than a Cap4) or both get added depending on temperature. These will generally be worn almost all of the day. For stops though I love the ex-lite in the summer and fall and my big down coat of the winter.

My philosophy in general is just keep adding fleece layers until you are thermal neutral while moving and then add puffy layers until you are thermal neutral at rest.

>>I don't think its an either or. I use fleece insulation to be warm enough when moving and puffys to go over top for breaks.

That's what I do, too.

Wear my fleece and wool when moving, but throw on my down parka (GoLite Bitteroot) in camp and sometimes at break.

Nothing is either/or. I like to mix, match, use, discard and replace as conditions and trips warrant. :)

Justin: I'm sorry, yes, hence the weight/thickness ratio, some water beading without DWR, some stretch without lycra, also softness and half-decent compressibility. Compared to my Polartec 200 buff, these (which are not Polartec) might be 300 weight? I'm guessing?

I total agree when applying it to myself but some people are always pushing their envelope and like everything else much of this is relative to an individuals strengths, skills and tolerance to severe conditions. Safety should be paramount but that too is relative. I guess the most important skill is recognizing ones limitations. (to paraphase 'Dirty Harry').

I've had the same issue as Dale regarding softshells. My jacket has been relegated to city use or climbing only. It's just not light or warm enough for overnight trips.

Pants on the other hand seem best as softshell. For core insulation softshell just isn't warm enough, but it does breathe decently but is better at wind blocking and has great abrasion. For legs you don't need as much insulation but you do need wind protection (hence so many people love their UL wind pants as primary leg wear) and the added abrasion resistance of softshell is welcome. One light/medium softshell also can be worn in a 60F degree range (20-80F) fairly well, and the 30F range the most people recreate in rather comfortably.

Thank you for the further info Bogs.

I’ve never had the problem of my softshell not breathing. I’ve enjoyed the 11oz Montbell Action Thermawrap. It’s lighter than a midweight fleece, warmer than a midweight fleece, compacts more than a fleece, and almost breathes as easy as a fleece. This jacket performs well in high endurance activities liking hiking up a mountain or biking.

I also bring a 3.5oz Marmot hooded wind jacket. The 2 combined easily keep me warm at 25F sitting. I’m done with fleece.

I’m still wondering if my Action Thermawrap breathes as well as today’s regular Therrmawrap… because after 7 years of harsh use, my zipper, and some stitching is giving up the ghost.

-Barry

All you mountain people need to realize that here in the uber flat flatlands, one simply does not generate enough heat in the deep fall through early spring to hike WITHOUT insulation. Unless I'm out for a run, regular ole' hiking here in the Midwest just is too easy. And now with a pack that weighs less than your average child's school bag, frankly going on a backpacking trip is not much more physically challenging than walking to the liquor store on the corner. And for that I need more insulation than a fleece.

"All you mountain people need to realize that here in the uber flat flatlands, one simply does not generate enough heat in the deep fall through early spring to hike WITHOUT insulation"

Just to clarify, my point is not that fleece is the ultimate piece of clothing , but rather that I personally think fleece still has a place in the outdoor person's tool kit. Fleece is often ignored in favor of "sexier" options that may not work as well.

I am glad the gentleman above found a layer that works for him, but I find I just swelter in any kind of puffy insulation in all but the coldest, driest conditions. I wore a thermawrap in -12f with fierce winds…but otherwise never wore it while Nordic skiing. Fleece had worked wonderfully for me. In similar conditions this past year (Chaco Canyon over Christmas) though, I was more comfortable in my favorite wool/acrylic blend sweater with my fleece over it. Found it breathed better. Then there is the moisture problem that I find to be the bane of all puffies. But I also generate a lot of heat when moving, too. The sweat just passes better through a fleece when I am in conditions where I have to wear a piece of insulation constantly.

Of course, everyone is different. My system just happens to be the best for me. ;)

+1 on Jennifer's flatlander corner store booze march post.

And, adding to what Paul just said, while fleece is kind of heavy, personally i don't count any on skin weight except for possibly heavy footwear. So if you're mostly wearing it, it's ok, and if not, tie it around your waist instead of putting in your pack. Saves on pack volume and pack weight.

I think it's the height of silliness and anal retentiveness to count on skin weight.

everyone has different metabolisms

im a sweaty male pig that drips more than a middle age geezer in the middle of a mid life crisis in a strip bar … even when walking briskly to get my alcoholic fix

everyone has different systems … whatever works for em

but when yr cold and constantly wet, you arent worrying about the weight of a fleece

its bery bery interesting how far weve come in the last few years … i remember when anyone who used a fleece here was shouted down as being "heavy" and scorned ;)

And thusly the Force maintained balance ; )

(or is it, "And thus balance was maintained in the Force?")

…

Hi Daniel,

Yeah, the Polartec Aircore stuff is nice. It's supposedly 20% warmer per weight than their last seasons regular micro fleece because of the inclusion of hollow fibers. I have the men's large PAC partial zip, 100 wt pull over "jacket" and like it. My wife has the boy's XL PAC fleece 200 weight hoody, full zip jacket which fits her nicely (she's curvy and a bit under 5' 10") and seems a bit female fitted almost. We also have some of their socks, which i have experimented with using as minimalist footwear wherein i glazed the bottom with silicone adhesive (plus there are built in little rubberish bumps that help with traction). And i have a pair of the 200wt gloves as well, which i like.

As far as fleece goes, i really like the Polartec Aircore stuff. Started a thread about it back in December and Konrad and i listed some weights. Off the top of my head, i believe the first jacket i mentioned was 9 oz in the size large, the 2nd was 16 oz and some change (that's with a hood, full zip, and pockets), and the gloves were 3.3 oz in medium i believe.