Far out! This thread has been a wild ride. Full circle and then some. You guys are great.
Topic
Canister failure: has this happened to you?
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Travis Leanna wrote: > …can the o-rings get cold and rigid enough to allow gas to leak?
Yes they can. Still, canister stoves are more reliable than, say white gasoline or kerosene stoves (which have a lot more gaskets, O-rings, and such). In extreme cold, one could pack the stove nearer to one’s back or even carry it in an jacket pocket so as to protect it some, but really gas stoves are very reliable.
Not so sure about “no name” stoves from eBay.
Where is that REI pack fitter guy?!? That stuff was hilarious. I bet he doesn't speak of that post.
Ahh good times
Re: passing a coconut… skill?? Give me an epidural.
He got a new job at autozone selling parts so he is on the NASCAR forum teaching them how to build engines. I think Max is thicker skinned than most here have given him credit and the proof is that he is still talking to us.
"Still, canister stoves are more reliable than, say white gasoline or kerosene stoves"
hmm….
if I had to pick only one stove, and reliability was a life and death situation, I would pick my Svea 123. Over 40 years old and still going strong. Very few parts.
Yeah max makes me crazy but he fits right in.
> Roger, can the o-rings get cold and rigid enough to allow gas to leak?
Depends …
If you use a cheap O-ring with very poor low-temp elasticity, then the answer is 'maybe'. But I would not expect a decent stove to have such O-rings.
Me, I always use a Viton O-ring. Viton is good for -26 C (-15 F) to +205 C (400 F) for normal operation, so I reckon I should get good sealing for any normal conditions. By way of explanation, I normally go for the Viton to get the much higher UPPER operating temperature.
Note that just because it is -15 C (5 F) ambient, that does not mean the canister will be that cold. Most likely it will be a lot warmer, either from being warmed in your pack while you are carrying it, or warmed during cooking.
On the other hand, nitrile O-rings are good for -40 C (-40 F) to 107 C (225 F), so if you are looking at a lot of serious cold and not much warm conditions, you might be better off with nitrile.
Fun stuff.
Cheers
HJ wrote:
"Still, canister stoves are more reliable than, say white gasoline or kerosene stoves (which have a lot more gaskets, O-rings, and such)."
Jim, I don't think there are any more rubber parts on a SVEA than a canister stove…only one(on the fill cap. The valve gets a graphite packing.) After about 40 years of use mine is still going strong. At 17oz for the stove alone, it is competatitive in weight with MSR's Reactor or a JetBoil. It works as well at 10000' as at sea level. I have dropped a load of firewood on it. It is, perhaps, the most rugged, reliable, and maintenence free stove still being made, though not in Sweden anymore. Fill it, prime and light. Highly efficient, it gets about 10-11L per filling (~4oz of WG or auto-gas.)10oz of fuel and fuel bottle takes me two weeks in the woods. It does NOT have high outputs, though. Generally it cannot compete with JetBoils or other stoves generating 8000-12000BTU, it only puts out ~4500BTU, so 4-5min per liter boiled is not possible. Usually boils water in ~10 minutes on medium-low. (I usually pack up my sleeping bag & pad while water is boiling.)
You can get a pump and cap that allows you easier priming and higher outputs, but this is never required. It can be turned down to about 500-700BTU, about half of an alcohol stoves output, for simmering. Coupled with a heat exchanger pot, and wind screen, it can deliver efficiencies very similar to the JetBoil…about .23oz fuel per liter, but like a canister, can overheat after a single burn. This is about 1/3 the fuel usage I could get from a Simmerlight, for example, at .7oz per liter.
The only downside is it's weight. For short trips, 2-5 nights out, it is heavier than alcohol or a canister. I usually use alcohol for short trips and just use the SVEA for week long outings, but a canister stove would save a few ounces(3-5oz or so, depending on whether it is 6,7 or 8 nights.)
There is NO possibility of the gas container splitting open. The saftey valve prevents this from building up too much pressure. So, it is actually safer than a canister stove, despite rumors to the contrary. Though, it may jet burning fuel out the side, causing a bit of excitement.
I think you must've forgot about this stove, Jim.
Forget the Svea 123!? Never! Still a favorite of mine after all these years. Personally, I prefer the original version over the Svea 123R that replaced it in the early 1970’s.
I should have added “in extreme cold weather” to my above statement. Canister stoves generally are more reliable in extreme cold weather than WG or kero stoves. And the Svea 123, c’mon let’s be honest, struggles in really cold weather, let alone extreme cold weather.
One does have to be careful with overpressurization though, and the safety valve on the cap has been known to fail with age over time. Great stove overall though.
The pump and specialized pump cap have been out of production for many years although you can still sometimes get them (for a premium!!) used on eBay.
Apologies to Nick and James (and to the Svea 123)!!
Yeah, the 123r is what I use. The 123, did not have an internal cleaning needle. Cleaning the jet was, perhaps, the single largest source of problems with the older 123. The jets were not cleaned with care and would get enlarged. This would cause them to burn sooty with reduced heat. The 123r had an internal cleaning needle that kept the jet clean and maintained the correct size.
Yes, at much below 0F (around -18C) they could struggle to get going because the tank itself would not push enough WG up to the vapourizer/jet area. The Mini or Midi pump would generally eliminate that problem. 'Corse, most canisters poop out at about 20-25F. A&H Pack Stoves still have the pumps and cap that goes with them. http://packstoves.net/cart/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=ef6d5ad2402b73e6448e9bea1b28b740&keyword=SVEA+123+pump
A lot of people, myself included, just dump a little extra fuel over the stove when it is very cold. setting it on some bark or a rock, rather than on snow helps a lot, too.
The safety valves could be a problem because they were prone to rusting in place after several years. A drop of olive oil every few years usually does the trick for keeping them working. If they happen to pop, a slight tapping on a rock will return them to service. Older ones, circa 1955-1960 or so, were one shot, I think. Maybe it was just rusted.
Too bad they never made a truely light-weight version. I could see dropping $150 on a 8oz SVEA. Aluminum for the expansion chamber, Ti for the tank, burner, pot supports. It was always cheap to run, too. 12floz of WG cost less than $1 (at todays prices) rather than the $15 they want for canister fuel…
Anyway, my prefered stove for week or longer outings. The bigest problem I have had is when using Auto-gas. It can burn slow, and requires frequent jet cleaning.
'Course, this is trivial with the "R" version.
Anyway….
The Svea 123 jet gets clogged with soot, although the included cleaning tool should fix that if you haven't lost it.
I remember camping in the snow on Mt Rainier and I couldn't get the stove to work, although I wasn't very skilled at using it.
The one pound weight doesn't include the pot, unlike the Jetboil. The Reactor is ridiculously heavy.
You occasionally have to fill it with white gas. A little will invariably spill, and the smell of that stuff is obnoxious. Stays with you even if you try to wash it off. And there's a risk of catastrophic fire.
You have to prime it – pour a little in the cup at top. Maybe a couple times in bad weather. Obnoxious the same as when you fill it.
Svea 123 belongs in museum : )
"Svea 123 belongs in museum : )"
Yeah, I agree. Though I often forget to add the "R" designation, when I talk about it, hey, ha.
Definitely the “R” version (which is all that’s available now anyways) is preferred for automotive gasoline; no question. I like the older version which has better flame control, but then I’m a bit of a stove. A bit. ;)
I’m pretty sure the item sold at Packstoves.net is not an Optimus brand pump. I believe it’s a reproduction. I’m not saying it’s a bad or good pump. It’s just that Optimus discontinued those 30 years ago and hasn’t made them since. This is someone’s re-creation. It may be perfectly fine; I really don’t know either way. Packstoves.net is a mom and pop operation. I think they’re reputation is generally good, but they’ve been accused of being a little slow now and again.
The Reactor is ridiculously heavy.
Have you seen the new smaller, lighter Reactor? It’s significantly lighter than the original (pre-2009) Reactors. I hardly ever use my original 1.7L Reactor unless I plan to melt serious snow. It’s just not worth it; it’s such a heavy beast. But they re-designed the pot ca. 2009, and it’s a lot lighter.
Original, beefy 1.7L Reactor pot (left). New, lighter 1.0L Reactor pot (right).
In 2013 (January), they came out with a 1.0L version. It’s still heavier than a JB, but it’s windproof whereas a JB really isn’t. A JB has better wind resistance than an ordinary upright, but it can’t compare to a Reactor. I’m pretty much liking what I’m seeing with the new 1.0L version of the Reactor. I just got it, but I expect that I’ll actually get some use out of it as opposed to my old, original version 1.7L Reactor (which mainly sits).
New Reactor is 172 g = 6 ounces
My Ti pot plus windscreen is about the same
I wonder what the improved fuel usage saves
That's sort of like Jetboils – original ones were ridiculously heavy but the Sol Ti weighs about the same as conventional
On the Reactor, I wonder if the fins on the bottom do very much. And the exhaust gas that goes up the sides loses heat to the metal outside. Is that heat conducted back to the pot or is just radiated out?
All told, a aluminum Jetboil Sol weighs 312g/11oz* on my scale. A Reactor 390g/14.7oz. The Reactor is a quarter pound heavier. Ouch. The JB is pretty efficient although the JB does not have a pot skirt like the Reactor.
The real advantage of the Reactor is windproofness. The JB can be blown out in high winds whereas the Reactor hardly takes notice. Even in lower winds where things aren’t as obvious and dramatic, the JB can lose a lot of efficiency and go through a lot of fuel whereas the Reactor is remarkably consistent.
The Reactor is the leader in extreme conditions; the Jetboil in mild. Both are fast.
It would be nice to sit down and do some serious efficiency testing between a 1.0L Reactor and an aluminum Jetboil Sol.
*That’s on an aluminum Jetboil from a year or so ago. It looks like Jetboil has done some things to make the current aluminum version heavier, perhaps in an effort to make the Ti version appear lighter.
An old anecdote. I was co-leading a group backpack trip once, and I brought along my hot MSR white gas stove to do half of the cooking. My co-leader brought along his Svea 123, although he was not very experienced with it. When it came time to do some cooking, he dripped a few drops of fuel over the burner for priming. He lit it, it flickered for a few seconds, and then it went out. So, he dribbled more fuel over it, pumped the little mini-pump, and lit it again. Again, the fire danced around for a short period and then went out without getting any real pressurization going in the tank. For the third go, he dribbled several spoons of fuel over it, furiously pumped the mini-pump, and lit it. This time it caught. The priming fire was more of a blaze, and the pressure built up rapidly. The burner was going great guns, and then it happened. The pressure safety relief valve opened in the filler cap. All of a sudden, a diagonal fire jet was shooting out of the filler cap, and the thing looked like it was about ready for a shuttle launch. My co-leader didn't know what to do. He had no fire blanket to throw over it, and he had no water standing by. It seemed ready to explode. I just kicked it over in the sand with my boot, and then kicked more sand over it, so it was out in an instant. Needless to say, the safety valve was melted and permanently failed, so that Svea was retired to the junk heap.
The stovies on this forum have probably seen this before with inexperienced Svea users.
–B.G.–
Daniel, what a great post!
Thanks.
Is there a Coles Notes version?
"Honestly, the things used to really freak me out. They just get so hot. I know I'm going to burn myself one day using one. It's just a matter of time."
You aren't a real stovie until you've singed the hair off the back of your hand a few times.
Beside, if you are going to run with the big dogs, you have to learn to lift your leg very high.
–B.G.–
"Is there a Coles Notes version?"
Dr. Schultz… I'll do the trolling around here thank you very much.
Behold the OG of Schultz
.
Daniel,
Thanks for the kind words. I doubt I live up to half of them, but the ethereal "Max" that all young forum users might embody that you spoke of is a valuable part of the community. There are people in their 50's and 60's doing the exact same thing, too.
I think I have lessons to learn on approaching discussions. I quickly learned not to dismiss things I considered "off-topic" even if I was specific in my OP, because that kind of request is unreasonable and there's value to tangents. There was an individual talking knives VS. scissors last week who fell into the same trap. I am trying not to hold on to bad habits.
I also get trapped in loops sometimes. I say something, someone counters, and then it's a race for the last word. I also want to try to let go of a counterpoint rather than pursue being "right" at the expense of credibility and actual progress.
Lessons, lessons. The Internet is kind of like being thrown into elementary school and then working your way back to civilized socialization. That detachment that comes with a complete lack of tone of voice, facial expression, and volume is hard to consider sometimes, but we all manage.
Thanks to everyone that convinced me this wasn't a lost cause. Thanks also to the people who recognized my frustration and responded positively, especially Douglacide and Ian Bloom. I'll try to get outside more often so I have more questions to ask.
This weekend is Acadia National Park in Maine. I'll post a trip report, although it's a much more casual experience than our Camel's Hump and Moosilauke trips earlier this year. Still, I might try to find a way to make it interesting.
45º sleeping bag in 32º weather? Sounds like my kind of party….
Hi Bob
> The pressure safety relief valve opened in the filler cap. All of a sudden, a
> diagonal fire jet was shooting out of the filler cap,
Not just Svea 123s. Optimus 8R can do that too. Extended pancake cooking session INside a tent. Fortunately the tent door was open, and fortunately it was pouring rain outside. The stove sort of levitated out the door … No damage though, and the stove was fine for the rest of the several weeks of the trip. Maybe we got it extinguished and cooled fast enough.
Cheers
Roger Caffin (PhD) (for Daniel)
"No damage though"
That is surprising. Once the safety relief valve opens, most of them are permanently ruined (by intention).
Maybe you have a force field installed on yours.
That's one of the good things about a typical MSR white gas stove, that there is no ruining feature to upset things. About the only two killers are (A) if the fuel line gets clogged, (B) if the pump gasket "leather" dries out.
I saw a guy whose MSR stove (not the fuel tank) had been run over by a car tire. He bent it back into shape with a Leatherman tool, and then he started on a one-week backpack trip with it.
–B.G.–
Bob,
Normally it’s just the cap that is ruined if the SRV blows. The rest of the stove is normally fine. This is true for that class of thermal feed back stoves:
Optimus 8/8R
Primus 71
Optimus 80
Optimus 99
Svea 123/123R
Optimus Eagle 1000
… and any other stove with that type of cap. The above are the ones I can remember off the top of my head. Replace the cap, and your stove should be fine. At least that’s the design intent.
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