How much White Gas for snow camping

[Yes 1000]

I never have used liquid fuel stove since I'm new to backpacking and brand new to snow camping. I use canister stoves in summer ($8 ebay or Jetboil) how does it directly compare with doubling the fuel allowance. From my previous experience, I saw a 100gm canister going empty in less than a day, fortunately I had another 230gm spare canister and saved my second day camping.

On the stove base, how about cutting a 4mm plywood and covering it with aluminum foil. Or use a small kitchen chopping board.

[Bob Gross]

"4mm plywood"

That's not too much different from Masonite.

Also, if you are a newbie to white gas stoves, it is a prudent idea to keep your white gas divided into two separate bottles. From the standpoint of weight, it is not a great idea. From the standpoint of reliability, it is. Occasionally a user in the field will leave a bottle cap loose and a lot leaks out. If that is your only bottle of fuel, it is a huge problem.

As a result, I would often leave home with my MSR stove packaged with one full fuel bottle, and another full fuel bottle was somewhere else in my pack.

–B.G.–

[Yes 1000]

good idea BG. I will carry two bottles. BTW I got some Coleman Camp fuel which was $9 a gallon. Like Jim suggested, I will filter it through a coffee filter before using it.

[Paul McLaughlin]

The conditions you mention in your original post seem similar to what I usually experience on my spring Sierra backcountry ski trips. I use an MSR Simmerlite. My cooking style is very simple – I only eat meals that are add boiling water – no simmering or anything. I light the stove once in the morning and once in the evening,melt (if needed) and boil (or just heat) what I need. With that in mind, what I have found is that if I am melting snow, I need about 3 oz per day for one person, and 4 1/2 for two (by weight). I have also found that when I find water and don't have to melt, it is indeed about half that fuel usage. This is based on a number of years of keeping track. So I would think that if your meals are similar, 4 oz per day should be a safe bet, should give you plenty. If you need to simmer or anything else, then add to that.

But what may not be relevant is summer usage, unless your meals are identical. In my case, I don't eat hot breakfasts or have many hot drinks in the summer, while I do in the snow. So my summer fuel usage would be significantly less per day than my non-melting snow usage, and thus if I doubled my summer usage I would not have enough for melting.

[Bob Gross]

"I will filter it through a coffee filter before using it."

Many years ago, I purchased a can of Coleman fuel and started to use it in two MSR stoves. Very soon later, both stoves had a severe drop-off in performance, and it seemed like a fuel flow problem. Disassembly of the stoves was conducted, and I reamed out the hard fuel delivery tube underneath the burner to find a clog in each one. The clog turned out to be melted plastic. The plastic turned out to be formed from plastic millings from the cap on the Coleman can.

So, filtering the new Coleman fuel through anything is a good idea. I do it as I pour it into my Sigg fuel bottles.

–B.G.–

[Yes 1000]

thanks BG. I can spare few minutes to filter the fuel than pay 4x the price for MSR fuel.

[Bob Gross]

I would guess that MSR fuel and Coleman fuel come out of the same tanker truck.

–B.G.–

[Jeffs Eleven]

Yes,

I cant PM you cause "you haven't specified a personal message address" yet

I think you have to submit an email. I have seen where people have not be able to see other's PM status. If you HAVE set up your PM's and I just can't see it- hit me up again and send you email and I'll respond directly if ya want.

[Roger Caffin]

> > "4mm plywood"
> That's not too much different from Masonite.

True, except that thin 3-ply is a lot lighter than Masonite. The 3-ply works well for me in the snow, never letting the snow underneath melt.

Cheers

[Mike R]

I camp between 4000 and 7000 feet about once a week or so. I use an MSR XGK EX. All my water is derived from melting snow. 2 weeks ago, me and two friends were camped in a snow cave at ~5500' with the XGK. We went through about 700ml of fuel during a 30 hr. period [weekend – one night] to provide water/boiling needs for three people. We also had a MSR Reactor doing a tiny bit of cooking. I was using a 2 litre MSR Titan pot with an MSR Heat Exchanger. We did all our cooking/boiling inside the snow cave and there was always an aluminum heat deflector/wind screen around the entire assembly [pot and stove]. We were backcountry skiing and thus required a fair bit of water [it's thirsty work]. I brought one 1 litre fuel bottle that contained about 887 ml of fuel. Not a huge margin of safety if we'd gotten injured or "tent bound". For your trip, I'd personally recommend having at least two 1 litre fuel bottles [~ 1.7 litres] minimum. Given that you'll be with other people, your safety margin doesn't need to be excessive.

I have zero experience with your stove in question, but this is a question that is dependent upon many things: where you'll be cooking [outside or in a tent vestibule]; type of pot; windscreen?; ambient temperatures; wind speed; altitude etc. Obviously, a windscreen should be used to reduce boil times/fuel consumption.

Always important to be cautious with fuel in the winter – no fuel – no water. At 7000' there's rarely any fuel to build a fire either.

[Daniel Fish]

…

[Jeffs Eleven]

Has anybody tried heating their inverted canister with a tea candle? ( in winter of course)

It seems if you were vigilant… If it were really cold it might not even be enough?

Experts?
Normals?

[Roger Caffin]

> heating their inverted canister with a tea candle? ( in winter of course)
Technically feasible, and unlikely to get the canister too hot in a short period, but there is a bit of a logistics problem.

You have to juggle getting the pot on the stove, not spilling the pot by jerking the stove or the hose, arranging the canister upside down, looking after the windshield, sitting the candle under the canister, and not setting fire to anything with either the flaming stove or the candle. Can be tricky!

may I suggest sitting the canister in a bowl of cool liquid water instead? Much safer, and very effective.

Cheers

[Jeffs Eleven]

I have a windpro with the nifty stand that keeps it up off the ground. easy to adjust, stays in place, about 1 tea candles worth of ground clearance. :)

My windscreen is a caldera cone turned upside down so its pretty stable. (the hose goes out through the pot holder cutout)

//

//

I might try this candle thing. I figure since the can is constantly cooling off the candle is getting battled and therefore shouldn't overheat it, but I guess there is a temp limit. (and probably not a good idea with a FULL canister)

[Hikin’ Jim]

I think you'd be all right with a tea light candle. The trick is to just keep feeling the canister with your hand. If the canister feels hot to the touch, get that little candle the heck out of there. You'd want to be careful to not melt your canister stand.

Still, I would think water, as Roger suggested, would be easier to deal with. You don't have to worry about melting your canister stand; you don't have to worry about the candle melting into the snow; you don't have to worry about the candle blowing out; and you don't have to worry about overheating your canister.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Jeffs Eleven]

I definitely dont get how the water works but I trust you two. How much water we talking about? I dont carry anything to put water in that could also hold the circumference of the canister. (just my cookpot- which OBV will be on the stove!)

…you know it'll be too windy when I want to test the candle

[Daniel Fish]

…

[Hikin’ Jim]

I definitely dont get how the water works…

Well, think about it for a second. In order for your gas stove to work, you've got to have gas coming out of the canister. In order to have gas, the canister has to be a certain temperature. If it's cold out, your canister might not be able to deliver enough pressure to properly run a stove.

Now let's say you've got a isobutane/propane mix in your canister (for example, MSR, Snow Peak, JetBoil, or Brunton). What's the boiling point of the fuel inside that canister? Well since isobutane alone boils (turns to gas) at 11F, your fuel boils at at least that temperature (and probably colder depending on how much propane is in your mix). What's the temperature of (liquid) water? Well, it can't drop below 32F/0C or it'll turn to ice. In other words, liquid water is a least 20F/10C warmer than the boiling point of your fuel. So long as your fuel is immersed in water, then you'll have plenty of operating pressure.

How much water we talking about? I dont carry anything to put water in that could also hold the circumference of the canister. (just my cookpot- which OBV will be on the stove!)

Well, it depends. If it's really cold, more water is better since more water will take longer to freeze. Generally though, submerging the canister up to about 3/4 depth is plenty. You could put the canister and water into a ziploc bag or similar if you want a UL solution.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Jeffs Eleven]

My brain wants to think that the cold can will freeze the water

guess it just depends on the mass of water vs the mass of fuel?

[Hikin’ Jim]

No, you're absolutely right. The cold can and will freeze the water over time. You may have to "freshen up" the water by adding more hot water from the pot. Carefully! If you pour hot water directly on the canister, your stove will flare up.

This to my mind is the limitation of the water trick: The colder it gets, the harder it will be to keep the water liquid. For a two cup boil, which should go fairly quickly, it shouldn't be a big deal. For snow melting 4 liters worth of water, you may have to fiddle with things a bit. For serious snow melting, a lot of people go to white gas or kerosene which you don't have to fiddle with in terms of putting the fuel in water.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Jeffs Eleven]

Thanks HJ!

Ima give the candle a go. Imagine the ambiance! :)

Guess I'll use the water trick if it fails.

[Bob Shaver]

I've been on some trips where those with canister stoves could not get them lighted. When its that cold, you really want some warm food or drink fast, and having no fire is a bummer. Gas stoves always work in cold weather, as do alcohol stoves. I use an MSR Dragonfly gas stove, or a Caldera cone. The Dragonfly is a blowtorch, but very fuel efficient. I start it with a tube of fire paste. I sit it on a 10 x 10 piece of thin plywood so it doesn't melt into the snow. I've used a shovel blade before, and its slippery and not perfectly flat, so its easy to spill a pot of water.

The Caldera can certainly boil water and cook food, but it would take a while to melt a gallon of water from snow. That takes the BTUs of gasoline.

To start an alcohol stove in around zero takes a little trick. The alcohol doesn't volatilize at that temperature, so I put some in the primer ring. I put a small piece of paper in the primer ring, and light it. The alcohol in the primer ring is soon going strong, and the alcohol in the stove is soon going strong. Sitting the alcohol stove on metal tent stakes on the snow works fine for not melting into the snow.

[Jeffs Eleven]

I used an inverted can at 10f. But it wasn't happy. I cant see going much below that without switching to liquid.

Luckily it usually doesn't get that cold where I'm living.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Bob

> it would take a while to melt a gallon of water from snow. That takes
> the BTUs of gasoline.
Actually, most canister stoves put out more heat than most white gas stoves. Check the figures.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Jim nailed it:
> liquid water is a least 20F/10C warmer than the boiling point of your fuel. So long
> as your fuel is immersed in water, then you'll have plenty of operating pressure.

You can always add a few teaspons of hot water to the bowl or whatever as you go.

BUT, do remember that if you use an inverted canister stove, the canister does not cool down very much at all. A little radiation warmth from the flames and the canister will supply liquid fuel till it's empty.

It may be worth remembering that many of us do this every year, quite successfully, in the snow. It is not theory; it is real practical experience.

Cheers

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