How much White Gas for snow camping

I used to use an MSR XGK a lot, and I would estimate fuel more on the basis of time. For one stove, I used to get a minimum of two hours of full flame per liter of fuel. I would expect similar Primus models to use similar amounts. Obviously I could get more burn time from the fuel by turning down the flame, but that did not necessarily get better results from snow melting. The efficiency of snow melting will vary a lot depending on the water content of the snow. In other words, you will get faster results from slush than you will from powder. Also, the efficiency will vary depending on windscreens and stuff like that.

So, just stop and estimate how much time you expect to be burning the stove each day. I'm guessing at least an hour per day.

–B.G.–

I planned on 5 L a day plus meals and figured 5 oz a day that had a built-in factor for bad conditions. That worked for 3 flavors of XGK and my Coleman Xtreme.

For 6 days in deep cold with snow melting I'd take 32 oz—a 22 oz bottle and an 11 oz bottle. Or in whatever config you want.

Ray,

I would think 5 fl oz/day should be plenty. Based on my experience with my Whisperlite, which might be a bit more miserly than an XGK, I use about 3 fl oz/day when solo snow melting. It’s perhaps a little warmer in So. Cal. (even in the mountains in Winter) than in Michigan, but 5 fl oz sounds like plenty. I imagine a Primus Omnilite Ti will be a little more econonomical in terms of fuel than an XGK.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Thanks folks.

When you say OZ is it Fluid OZ ? or weight

I will be using Primus ETA pot with built in head ex-changer. Hopefully it should add some to the stove's efficiency.

I will also ask another question on the fuel on the same thread> REI sells MSR Superfuel for $12 a quart and Crown Brand fuel for $8 a quart. Does it matter which fuel I use? or is it MSR marketing gimmick.

Uh, yeah. There is a big diff. One is white gas and the other is alcohol.

@ Ray LOL. It's not Crown Royal.

> When you say OZ is it Fluid OZ ? or weight

Fluid ounces.

> REI sells MSR Superfuel for $12 a quart and Crown Brand fuel for $8 a quart. Does it matter which fuel I use?

My dad always used Crown camp fuel. Sunnyside brand is also reputed to work well. I’ve always used Coleman brand with good results. I’ve never seen anything that would support the idea that MSR brand is going to be markedly better.

FWIW, I always filter my fuel through a coffee filter as I fill my fuel bottles. Sometimes I have found crud — crud of the sort that could block a jet.

@Ray — REI does sell Crown brand alcohol but also Crown brand camp fuel. The “camp fuel” is white gas of the same type as Coleman or MSR.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Yeah Jim I don’t doubt that you have much better figures. Most of my snow melting is actually in CA, but in the high Sierra. (Lots in your area too as I lived in Idyllwild for 4 years.) And I am in northern MN now, not MI, but it is similar.

When it comes to winter hiking I plan for the worst-case scenarios. I once took a Coleman and an MSR stove and sat in a blizzard at Tom’s Place with two stoves, a notebook in my parka, my Highgear MFD, and a six pack (no cooler needed) and scooped fresh snow and melted it recording times (and later weights) just to prepare for an 11-day trip to White the next month. I boiled four batches of 5 L of water with each stove in the blowing snow. Then once home where I could weigh the used fuel I added an ounce to account for possible worse conditions.

Winter is not the time to “save weight” or plan on being “UL”. Go as light as you can while being safe.

Figure trips based on other’s best cast scenarios? Better bring a PLB…

> Winter is not the time to “save weight” or plan on being “UL”. Go as light as you can while being safe.

Figure trips based on other’s best cast scenarios? Better bring a PLB…

Agreed. ~3fl oz/day is my actual use in cold but good conditions and does not include any safety margin. Even in summer, UL be danged, I bring an extra couple of meals and fuel. In winter, I sometimes pack an extra 48 hours worth of supplies, depending on the circumstances.

Interesting UL story: My dad was a minimalist’s minamalist (long before anyone thought of the term “UL”). My dad used to just carry a bivy since it was lighter than a tent. My dad once spent two days in his bivy in a storm. He never used that bivy again. lol.

Winter is time to be safe and have a margin for error (an a PLB is never a bad idea).

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Jim, how much snow have you melt and how many cups of water have you boiled with 3 Oz of fuel/day for a solo trip.

I have a PLB and a SPOT II device ( yeah it works fairly well). I'll also be hiking with other experienced campers,so we have some sort of safety in numbers :-)

> Jim, how much snow have you melt and how many cups of water have you boiled with 3 Oz of fuel/day for a solo trip.

Typically three cups per boil in cold conditions. I explore the subject a little more on my blog in How much White Gas Do I Need?

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

HJ- Yeah your dad was feeling buried above ground. Musta been two long days.

Yes,
For us the only place that looked like you had a good chance of losing your bearings was the SE side of Dutton ridge. The hill is not steep and trees are sparse so you cant just see the trail in the gap of the trees and the trail makes a big sweeping turn. A week before we went they rescued a dude on skis in this area.

I will say if you had AT setup or something other than straight-up xcountry skis it would probably be pretty effin sweet. Need an edge though.

Skiing down Watchman over and over while having my tent nestled in the trees towards the bottom of the hill is on the list.

Yeah the wind does weird things there VVVV

//

RE the Avy zones: They are two sections that total maybe a mile? If you take the detours it is longer and harder. It didn't look fun. Hopefully you can walk through the zones safely like we did, but confer with the ranger. He'll come check your stuff out to make sure if you die its your fault, not the equipment's. ;)

5 days will be a really sweet trip if the weather is good.

//

A nice trick is if temps will be warming up a little, fill you water bottle/Nalgene/Gatorade bottle half full with water and spike it with snow then place in the sun if you can or while hiking. I've gotten my days worth of water, melting snow that way, using bark or gaiters laid on the snow, facing the sun as much as possible. That should be fun staying out that many days, I've only been out three nights with a small group that many nights, most of my snow camping trips are solo for one night.
Duane

Looks odd to me that nobody mentioned pots or windscreens.
I am aware that you get wind protection digging a kitchen area in the snow, still a windscreen can help in reflecting some heat and some pots are better than others…
BTW, just as a very basic tip, it is easier to melt snow if you start with some water in the pot.

Well, a simple rule of thumb is to double what you would take in summer time.
And maybe add a little extra.

Cheers

Looks odd to me that nobody mentioned pots or windscreens.
I am aware that you get wind protection digging a kitchen area in the snow, still a windscreen can help in reflecting some heat and some pots are better than others…
BTW, just as a very basic tip, it is easier to melt snow if you start with some water in the pot.

Definitely to all of the above. If you don’t use a windscreen, a lid on your pot, etc. (all the standard tricks that you’d use for efficiency), then your fuel consumption will go up. Good point.

Also, you’ll generally want to put something under the stove otherwise the hot stove will melt down into the snow, and dinner will be served a la freeze. The blade of a snow shovel works as does a square of closed cell foam. You can wrap the CCF in duct tape to make it more durable, but that adds weight. I put a little round of heavy aluminum foil on top of the CCF. Interestingly, CCF wrapped in duct tape acts as a sort of wick if you spill white gas on it. Don’t ask me how I know that. ;)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Mama shoot me an email and I will send you a write up I did explaining how to make a folding stove base like this one for a remote canister stove (WindPro here).

It has places for the feet of the stove to sit to keep it from sliding off.

Here is one for an attached canister like the Reactor.

Thanks everyone for good inshights. I think I will keep 4 oz as an average amount of fuel/day. Primus Omnilite is supposed to be more fuel efficient and also the heat exchanger pot should help. For sure I will be using the windscreen and was thinking about using a 4 mm plywood stove stand. But Ray has a better idea with foam pad and I would try making one.

…

Well that does not really compute for me. With a canister stove I use 1 oz of fuel for three or four days in the summer. With alcohol I use 3/4 oz per day in summer. Melting snow and bringing it to a boil takes a heck of a lot more then twice that amount.

Anybody that plans to rely on their stove for water should practice first in a controlled environment. Learn what you really need.

For those making a base I found out the hard way that glue does not hold in cold temps. The blue pad was for my MSR XGK EX (still in my pot at the time) and it had a neat little rectangular curb to hold the bottle in the optimum spot. The first night hit -31 F and I got up to find the foam popped off during the night. Now I use the alum tape to hold things together for winter.

@Ray: That’s a really slick stove pad. I like that it can fit in the stove bag. Most impressive.

@Daniel: You could try just using a round, stiff piece of heavy aluminum foil (e.g. an MSR brand heat refector), but I haven’t found them to be stable enough. The aluminum gets hot after a while and wants to melt down into the snow. On really hard, icy snow, you might be able to get away with it, but I don’t think it’ll work in deep powder. A 10″ x 10″ square of the cheapie blue CCF doesn’t weigh much…

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

I generally use a very thin square of Masonite, maybe 5 or 6 inches on a side. This gets me the stability. That can be covered with simple aluminum foil to get me the reflectivity.

On some trips I've done the same thing, except that I used heavy cardboard instead of Masonite. The cardboard will eventually get wet and fold up.

–B.G.–