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From the owner of ProLiteGear.com – What traits do BPL members consider important in an online gear shop???


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  • #1949054
    John Whynot
    Member

    @jdw01776

    Locale: Southeast Texas

    The only thing I really want is a return policy that let's me easily return items that I decide I don't want — even if it is limited to 60 days.

    I've purchased a few items from Prolite Gear. The prices were good, and the items arrived quickly. Close-outs and specials seem to be very aggressively priced.

    The key for me was gear/brands that wasn't available elsewhere. One example — Evazote sleeping pads in various thicknesses are almost always in stock.

    #1949071
    Dan @ Durston Gear
    BPL Member

    @dandydan

    Locale: Canadian Rockies

    It seems that I'm with Craig and Mike. Normally online gear shops don't play any role in my decision of WHAT gear item to buy (with massive sales being the exception). Normally I decide what gear item to buy based on information from BPL and manufacturers websites, and then I head over to online gear shops when I'm ready to acquire it.

    So because I'm not relying on the gear shop for help with the purchasing decision, price including shipping (to Canada) is the biggest factor. Reputation or return policy are tie breakers, because pretty much every shop has at least a reasonable policy. I like to use Google shopping (Froogle.com) to quickly give a slew of prices and then I head over the cheaper sites until I find one with reasonable shipping as well.

    The shortcomings of Dealer agreements are really an issue to leave between shops and the manufacturers. Customers have no idea what the agreements are or if they're being broken. Most people aren't going to pass on a sale price and spend more elsewhere just because there's a chance the sale dealer is using loop holes in their agreement. While I'm not informed on the details of these agreements, to the lay person like me they seem like a form of price fixing by the manufacturers and a way to artificially protect margins from the realities of a free market.

    I think your first point (carrying foreign brands/small brands than no one else does) is the best strategy, but it's still indirectly competing on price – it's just less crowded. Competing on price is probably the least desirable business strategy, but the reality of the internet is that it's what people are looking for.

    #1949072
    Ken Thompson
    BPL Member

    @here

    Locale: Right there

    +1 w Craig W.

    I've done all my homework before I hit that purchase button. All I want when I am ready to buy is that is in stock with the aforementioned pluses.

    #1949089
    Michael B
    Member

    @mbenvenuto

    Locale: Vermont

    I have purchased from PLG and like your site, and find your prices usually competitive, which is really important. But like others here, you didn't have what I was looking for in stock recently. Although there is tons of info online, I find it remarkable how many manufactures don't have meaningful websites and don't provide concrete info about their products online, including pictures. So I appreciate how PLG puts an actual weight on the item, and often a custom description. As an example, there has been discussions here about bothy bags, and Integral Designs (a company you carry) has new bothies out, but they have no pictures and limited info out anywhere.

    For price, for several years now it is really hard to beat deals off steep and cheap. So anything that has a chance to pop up there, I would tend to wait and see, which sometimes means waiting a long time. BC's main site is also good and a place I buy gear from.

    To me, the real niche for PLG is getting innovative lightweight gear into the US that isn't readily available here. So I looked at RAB at your site long ago since you were one of the few places to carry it then. I would be interested in trying something from Paramo for example, but not sure that is available here even now, at least not easily available, google shopping turns up nothing. There has been a lot of talk about stoves from Firemaple, and I would be interested in one of those, but not sure I am going to order one from some sketchy unknown importer. I don't know of anyone that makes good light shell gloves, and that gets talked about here too.

    PS, you have excellent deals on some interesting gloves and mitts right now, including prices that are below steepandcheap, so that is tempting. But it drives me crazy on websites when I navigate to a page like Mens Gloves and Mitts, and view all 29 available items, and your website has other gloves that don't display there (including one I really like a lot, the OR Extravert Glove).

    #1949093
    Warren Greer
    Spectator

    @warrengreer

    Locale: SoCal

    "Lowest Price, No Tax, and Free Shipping". Smart shopping is just smart shopping.

    edit – Forgot to mention I've purchased at your site a time or two. My expectations are this: when I open the box the item is as shown on the website and that it arrived fairly quickly. It doesn't have to arrive in one or two days, but within the week. I don't want you or me to be spending on expensive shipping options.

    #1949120
    Russell Adams
    BPL Member

    @russ_outdoors

    Craig

    I've purchased a number of times from PLG with good experiences. Only one time have I needed customer service. I ordered a pair of Integral Designs rain pants and while the packaging said XL, the pants inside were L. This was probably an error on Integral Designs part, but you guys shipped me out the correct pair next day at no cost and took care of return shipping as well. I was and still remain a very satisfied customer.

    The main reason I frequent your site is because you carry some of the more niche brands. Brands that will never be found at REI or the like.

    For me, be competitive on the price, have a good return policy, be nice on the phone, process orders quickly and carry what I need and my $$$ is yours.

    #1949186
     
    BPL Member

    @rememberthelorax

    I tend to have a great deal of loyalty when it comes to where I buy gear from.

    I have ordered hundreds of dollars from PLG and hopefully will continue to do so.

    I have also ordered from backcountrygear, backcountryedge, and amazon.

    The last one is the kicker for me. Until recently amazon was tax-free in California, where I live, so it got a large portion of my orders, plus as a prime member I have my gear in under 48 hours.

    To me, this statement really nails it:

    "Lowest Price, No Tax, and Free Shipping"

    However, I also realize that all that this does is drive to a cut-throat situation where, in order to keep making online sales, every online company has to keep lowering and lowering their prices to stay competitive. This eventually leads to a point where the companies are not making enough profit to make it worth it. We as consumers need to be aware of this and think about what consequences this "lowest price possible" means in the long run.

    In the end I will continue to remain loyal to the companies I buy from. I will continue to hunt through the three through five of them looking for if any of them have a product I want on sale. If none of them do it is a flip-the-coin situation for me.

    I will be honest and say that the fact that PLG actually has a scale and lists the weight of many of the more popular items, is a HUGE attraction for me – and that is what caused me to buy from them in the first place and them make it into my list of companies I buy from.

    Regarding return policies. Personally, I could care less about return policies. I have never returned a single piece of gear I have bought. It seems unfair to these companies to have to pay for shipping and handling (both directions) just because I screwed up and ordered the wrong size product. They should not have to pay for my screw-ups. I man up and take responsibility for my own actions.

    Abela

    #1949194
    Jacob Smith
    BPL Member

    @wrongturn

    Locale: The Soda

    I've ordered all of my windshirts and rain shells from PLG over the years, but as far as needed gear and availability on PLG I find little overlap for me in the Southern Appalachians.

    I've moved from Outdoor Research shells to custom Cuben rain gear. My pack is Cuben, my fleece layer and insulation came from Backcountry when I had a 20% off coupon, and I bought my wool tops and bottoms of different weights from whomever had the best deal at the time.

    I have no need at this time for climbing or mountaineering gear. I'd like to get into snowshoeing and winter trekking, but still would only need a new Cuben mid shelter from MLD and a set of NorthernLites snowshoes.

    BPL and the quest for going ever lighter is dependent on cottage gear manufacturers.

    #1949257
    Gary Yee
    Member

    @lakemcd

    Locale: NW Montana

    Strengths of PLG:
    Good selection of gear. Instead of 1 or 2 items of a Patagonia down sweater type jacket I can count on you tho have 5 or 6 options from as many companies.

    Customer service. When I call your people know their stuff and can give me a hands on appraisal and not just recite whats on a spec. sheet.

    Returns: You recently handled a return of mine on a Montane Nitro with an improperly filled baffle. It took a little longer than expected but all things considered I was happy as oppose to trying to deal with the US Montane Distributor and got no where.

    Weaknesses of PLG:
    Low inventory of Sale items. Might be related to your #1 strength on how much inventory you can reasonably carry. Some retailers will make special buys to put things on sale thus having an ample supply and not getting the hopes up of customers only to be disappointed.

    Not user friendly website. Have had to hunt for items in the past. Had to be creative in searching for things on your site. Sale prices that are listed in product a category are often not on the page of the specific item. Now having to hunt for the item I need to figure out which price is accurate, thus requiring another email or phone call. Inconsistent display of objective data. Take a look at your down jackets some have fill weights listed some don't some info is in grams others in ounces or both. Now I have to go to other websites to get the info. And guess what might happen when I go to other websites.

    You are a valued business and I appreciate your presence in the market.
    A quote from Lindsey Buckingham of Fleetwoood Mac, " Any one who is any good at what they do, knows that can always get better"

    #1949290
    josh wagner
    Member

    @stainlesssteel

    i just think you'll want to be different. carrying the small/euro companies items is great and a way of doing that. checking in here at bpl is another way of doing that. give people a reason to spend $40 with you when backcountry has a similar item for $35. ideas to consider:

    -offer swag with a certain dollar amount spent – stickers, water bottles, t shirts
    -post stories of your backpacking life here (ie, become a forum member)
    -highlight a particular item from time to time in a special part of the webpage. gear of the week or whatever. have someone test it and write up a performance review.
    -include a thank you note in your shipping boxes. a local small engine shop around me does that (sends a thank you note when i purchase an expensive item). it is something small that i appreciate.

    i don't know. those are just a few ideas that jumped into my mind. lastly, there have been numerous posts about your gear being out of stock and how that has caused you to lose some business. that is the community responding to your question. so that should probably be the first issue you address. whether it's removing those items from the webpage as they go out of stock or adding more stock or whatever. good luck…

    #1949311
    Louis Jewett
    Member

    @lfjewett

    I typically only purchase online when I know the exact Item I want and I'm looking to save some $$ by hitting a sale. Rarely can I not find an Item locally and then must resort to online purchases.

    One thing that I think a small retailer like yourself could do to set yourself aside is put up a VIDEO and review of every single product. Introduce the product, show us the 360, tell us what it feels like, smells like, etc. If it's a piece of clothing ( ok maybe not underwear ) put it on so we can see it. If it's a box of matches, light one. The hardest part about buying stuff online is I can touch it and have little idea other than a picture often times taken ' in the products best light ' and the stats. Setup each tent and show us the setup processes, jump in the sleeping bag and zip it up. Give us your honest opinion on the build quality, the pro's, and the con's. If your a fair reviewer you'll find people will flock to your site for details. Text and Pictures just doesn't cut it in this day and age.

    #1949324
    Ryan Bressler
    BPL Member

    @ryanbressler

    I considered ordering some things for my wife and I (insulated pants) from you guys over the holiday season…I was excited to put together an order because I wanted throw in some evazote pads. I ended up going with some other small online retailers because of the limited sizes, lack of women's models and low selection of odds and ends (like a BD pole link converter) I wanted to pick up at the same time.

    Extending the return policy to allow for sizing clothing is a good idea. I'm usually only way to pay near full price If I can be sure it will fit. I also think you would be better served by ordering larger runs of gear and figuring out a way to do end of season clearance without harming your relationship with the manufactures.

    Including better info about sizing (reviews from employees with their measurements etc) would make me more likely to buy some of the specialty the clothing options you offer instead of going with a possibly inferior product that I can find better fit info about and return if it doesn't fit.

    If you really want to stand out as a premium non discount option then perhaps adopting the model offered by some online shoe retailers where they will ship you multiple sizes and you keep the ones that fit would be a good idea.

    #1949370
    Craig Delger
    Member

    @cdelger

    I sincerely thank everybody for your feedback and ideas… especially those that took the time to contact me personally.

    I sat down with the team and we have reviewed EVERY bit of feedback. We are excited!

    We are taking it into consideration as we are writing up our orders for next Fall right now.

    We are also taking it into consideration as we review our return policy, price strategy, shipping costs, etc.

    As one person stated – there is always room for improvement and I completely agree.

    Also, based on your feedback I have some exciting things to announce regarding stocking unique very lightweight gear… but I need to sit on that secret for a while longer and keep you guessing until we take delivery! :)

    Regarding inventory levels… I intentionally took them lower over the last 18 months due to the uncertain economic climate and market conditions, but I am starting to "intelligently" increase them again now. I am in this for the long term… and hearing the horror stories other stores have gone through the past 2 seasons I think that was the right call.

    Regarding videos, blogs, etc we are increasing our investments in that content and getting better at it. If you haven't seen our videos please check them out at:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/prolitegear

    or

    http://www.prolitegear.com/videos.html

    I am also looking forward to increasing my participation within the BPL community.

    thanks again for all you suggestions!

    Craig Delger
    ProLite Gear

    http://www.ProLiteGear.com

    #1949390
    Tjaard Breeuwer
    BPL Member

    @tjaard

    Locale: Minnesota, USA

    If its a product unique to you, adding more info like size etc. will help people on the fence, however if its widely available product producing info is just money wasted as people will still buy at the cheapest site.

    After that, quick and cheap shipping are good. Returns indeed are essential for something I haven't been able to try on or feel.

    #1949406
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    My favourite outdoor shop in Europe (I am from Ireland) is ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk as they display what each size weighs and have comparison charts for most items.

    #1949422
    Jeffs Eleven
    BPL Member

    @woodenwizard

    Locale: NePo

    Im definitely aware of your site… have been for years. Never ordered anything though. As an industry guy… well you know why.

    For me the best thing you offer is the Euro brands in the USA. This is awesome and your selestion of jackets was ok with me (Rab at least)

    As per Craigs "ill find the pertinant info on the dealer site" I personally like when retailers consistantly provide this info and have a "compare products" feature.
    This is a great way to cut through all the marketing and see the facts.

    Outdoor Research does this but poorly (I know its a mfg but bare w/me)

    They have stuff like colors/ sizes/ and useless info for product comparisons. They give the full on marketing blurb for each product. I want strictly the facts, ma'am.

    Montbell does not have a compare feature but they give the tech specs completely and consistantly.

    gotta go… compare chart, more shelters-

    IMO
    thanks

    #1949431
    Emily B
    Member

    @emilyb

    First of all, thanks for seeking input on this, it speaks well of ProLite Gear.

    A few thoughts:

    1) DETAILS ON RETAIL SITE

    When I'm looking into a non-cottage-industry product, I look first at sites that regularly provide their own measured specs and non-hyped product descriptions (there are only a couple!), and those that regularly post reviews and questions-and-answers. I prefer to buy from these sites.

    I often look at ProLite Gear both when researching and looking to buy, because you often have your own weights and descriptions. Not many retailers post their own measured weights on a regular basis. Some have their own descriptions but many of those are just hype and usually include my pet peeve "it's so light that you won't even notice it in your pack!" It is really easy to tell when a description is that of the retailer not the manufacturer, and when it's based on actually having examined the product. It's fine and good to include the product's stock blurb, but adding even a few bullet points or one detailed sentence of your own description can provide helpful information that's not included in the blurb, or can cause me the customer to feel that I'm getting some measured assessment.
    So that is one area where ProLite Gear sets itself apart. But it would be exponentially better if you could provide at least PLG-measured weight and brief description for Every Product that you add from now on (or as many as possible), so that it could be counted on.

    Also, PLG has a Reviews and Q&A system set up, but I don't see tons of usage of these features. Yes there are many other sites that have lots of reviews, so I might look at those too… but a) then I'm at another site for a longer time and feel like I may as well just by the product there, and b) sometimes there are not as many reviews as one might think, especially for the less-mainstream products. And not many sites where I can assume the reviews are from customers/users who are deliberate in their gear choices or have actual experience with gear in general, and didn't just go hiking for the first time in their life. Not that the latter type of review is unhelpful, but I think ProLite Gear could really provide a service by actively seeking reviews from its particular user base. Likewise, if someone writes or calls with a question, it doesn't hurt to post a brief version of that question and your answer in the Q&A. Surely someone else will be wondering the same thing at some point.

    Along those lines, others in this forum thread have advised removing a product listing when it's not in stock, but I appreciate when these products remain posted, because I'd still look at PLG to see your own specs and descriptions, when I'm researching the product. But best to also include an eye-grabbing out-of-stock notice at the top of the listing.

    Further, I really appreciate when the retailer provides certain clothing measurements. For women's clothing, this includes length of shirts, front and back (specifying where you're measuring from); sleeve length; and measurement of waists, unstretched and stretched– in addition to providing the manufacturer's sizing charts. These measurements don't have to be for every size, could just be for size medium, to give an idea.

    And one last thing. I really notice when retailers give details about the technical specs that are actually helpful for the customers who know what they mean. Often enough, even the manufacturer does not provide these on their site, so I don't know how available these details are to you. But for example, RAB usually doesn't list the details of their synthetic insulation. They'll say that a jacket has Primaloft One, but won't specify which weight of Primaloft One. And then there are those who say that their jacket uses 850 fp down but don't give fill weight. If I have to choose between a jacket that one manufacturer assures me is the perfect warmth for me, versus one from another manufacturer that gives the specs so I can judge for myself, I'll choose the latter– or make my own. Anyway, that's just one example, but if you can get your hands on that type of information, you'd have my vote.

    2) TURNOFFS

    One thing that turns me off of a retailer right away is lack of an easily accessible shipping estimate. PLG has this problem.

    When I have to create an account, or sense that I will have to go through a whole rigamarole just to get a shipping estimate, I will automatically go to another retailer. I live in Canada at the moment so I don't automatically assume that I'll have decent shipping options. I can't even tell you how many times I've been ready to order from a non-big-box gear retail site for the first time, after having compared sites to see which one has the right combination of things I want to order; take the time to put everything in my cart again (since sites sometimes only keep things in your cart for a short time); go through a whole process of setting up an account, which often is more of a hassle living outside the U.S.; and then find that the shipping costs are as much as the items themselves. (Compounded by knowing that I might have to pay around 20% duty when it arrives, and that half the things I want can't be shipped internationally in the first place; but that's the case no matter which non-Canadian retailer I use. We have a couple good retailers in Canada but they don't always have the products I'm looking for.) So now, if there's not a shipping estimator right there in my shopping cart, I don't even bother, unless I can't find the product elsewhere. These days there is no excuse for a difficult-to-use website.
    It IS very good that you specify that you do international shipping and that you use USPS, so that I know I at least won't have to pay for UPS.

    In all, ProLite Gear is one of the few retailers who appears to take its products seriously, so it's one of the retailers that I take seriously.

    #1949434
    Bean
    BPL Member

    @stupendous-2

    Locale: California

    Hi Craig,

    If I can do an autopsy on my previous states of mind and try to parse what stops me from buying online from some boutique shops, I think it boils down to and relates to the three S's (shipping, shipping, shipping).

    First: I worry when a smaller shop will actually mail it out to me. As my experience has been that with REI type online sellers, if I order early in the day I may be surprised and find a box on my doorstep the next day. With the smaller shops, I have little confidence my order will be filled same day or even in a couple days. I've left on many a trip a little depressed because I was without some new gear I ordered a week or more before. Knowing it is showing up a day after I'm leaving can even invoke some sour grapes feelings that I carry with me on the entire trip. Maybe a display next to the item promising when it will ship and might arrive could go a long way towards making me click a "buy" button, kind of like they do on flower delivery websites (to make sure you won't miss mothers day).

    Second: Free domestic return shipping on unused items. I'm sure for a small shop something like that is scary to offer. However, if you've read that Zappo's book, apparently it pays off in customer loyalty. It probably will get abused by a handful of a-holes, but it might encourage a lot of sales you wouldn't otherwise of got. Also helps a great deal if the return labels are pre-printed and included with the shipped item.

    Third: I find that I end up on a lot of boutique websites because I stumble on one low priced item I can't get elsewhere, but the shipping is going to increase the price dramatically. Then I look for some other stuff to fill the minimum order to get the free shipping, but I can't find anything I really need. Maybe along with 50 dollar minimum on free shipping, there could be an alternative option where if you order a ProLiteGear branded t-shirt or hat, you automatically qualify for free shipping. The mark up on something like that could be good enough to offset the loss on shipping, and you get a bunch of people wearing gear with your name on it (as I can always use another black t-shirt with some random logo on it).

    Outside of that, just checking out the website today, almost everything I was interested in was out of stock or you didn't have my size. That is something that would dissuade me of putting ProLiteGear.com high on my list of websites I'd check regularly for gear.

    Hope that was of some help,

    Brandon

    #1949481
    Ed Tyanich
    BPL Member

    @runsmtns

    ProLite Gear is usually the first place I look when shopping for gear. They often have gear others don't have, their prices are very good, customer service is tremendous and I have what I ordered the next day. (Of course I live only 90 miles from ProLite)

    I love going to their shop when I am in Bozeman. It really nice to see gear you don't see in your typical outdoor shop.

    My thought on return policy is that I accept some degree of personal responsibility when I purchase gear and I don't expect someone to allow me to try everything, sometimes for months or years before deciding on what I really want. Sometimes I buy gear that doesn't live up to my expectations but unless it is defective, that was my choice, no different than if I order a meal out somewhere that I don't really care for. Unless there is something actually wrong with it, I accept that I made a bad choice and I won't order that again.

    Others feel different than I do and are free to shop where they please. I really appreciate what Craig has done with ProLite and will continue to support him with my dollars and my recommendations to others.

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