Alapacka packraft for great lake use, recommendations?

Veronique,
I've used the Yukon Yak in Michigan and Superior.

Size. Either the Yak or Alpaca would probably work for you, but I'd suggest talking directly to Alpacka for their recommendations. There isn't a huge difference between the sizes when it comes to weight and how it will track.

Paddle. I use and like the Sawyer. You will want a longer paddle for open water.

Skirt. If you can swing it, I'd suggest getting it. Calm lakes and warm days won't require a skirt, but if the temp drops or you start hitting big waves, you'll really appreciate it. In winter I'd definitely suggest one.

Pad. I've put my Thermarest LiteSeat in my boat to insulate my legs better, but keeping water out on cold days will help the most.
Clothing. I have no experience with a dry suit, but have used NRS's farmer John wetsuit in cold temps and it worked well. I wore my rain jacket to keep spray off my upper body. Again, if you need a wet or dry suit, you'll really want the spray deck.

I would definitely recommend an inflatable kayak over a packraft for lake use…..especially in such large lakes. They will track better and be less effected by the wind. Plus, there will be much less resistance when rowing. Choose an inflatable yak that is the lowest to the water for lake use. Also, a hybrid inflatable/hard structured yak will track a bit better. It will be a bit heavier, but they pack small enough for a closet.

I would recommend some sort of dry-suit or at least a dry-top with a farmer-john wetsuit or wetsuit pants on the bottom. Wetsuits are most comfortable and effective when you stay wet.

Vero,
IMO,if you are under 170 lbs,look inflatable kayak NRS rascal(clearance).Perfect for your needs.
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=1635&pdeptid=2028

Veronique,

I second Travis's recommendation about the skirt. It's your best defense against cold and saves frequent bailing. Packrafts are extraordinarily buoyant but without a skirt it ships water with every wave. Get your suntan when on a gentle lake.

I have used a farmer john wetsuit and dry top with excellent results in cold weather. Don't forget neoprene gloves and shoes.

In my experience using a pad doesn't help much in keeping me warmer. It can raise me up a tad which makes paddling easier. If you don't need a tent you can save some weight by using the inflated raft as your pad, under a tarp.

If you do buy a packraft, talk to Alpacka about sizing. Your legs provide part of the raft's frame and it works better and is more comfortable if your legs are slightly bent. There is only a marginal difference in weight between Yak and Alpaca.

Have a great time

Richard

Veronique, as I imagine you know it will be a compromise. Nothing approaches a packraft for packability. You'll be able to walk or bike to a river, float down, and walk/ride back home. I don't mention lakes because packrafts are really slow, and can get pushed around pretty hard by wind. Moderate gusts on a big lake can be dangerous in a packraft.

If you're ok with those, and want a boat primarily for flat water, a non-rockered bow and smaller tubes will not catch the wind as bad. Depending on your height, a Scout or Curiyak might be good. A deck does add a lot of warmth, but ask yourself how often you'll be out in the rain. The deck adds cost and bulk. My Scout takes up about half the space of my decked Yukon Yak.

Dave makes an important point about big lakes and inflatable boats like Alpacka.

You have to be constantly aware of your environment. Monitor wind, wave height, and distance from shore. I'm able to propel myself forward into a headwind, but if I have to fight large 4-5 foot waves (which can also be
really fun!) and a strong wind, I certainly wouldn't want to do that for a long time, especially if my safety was in jeopardy.

I'm not saying go afraid by any means. But go smart.

I'm a kayaker as well as a hiker, and I'll +1 the recommendation to not get a packraft.

Well, actually, I guess I would just encourage you to figure out exactly what you want from your boat. I'll go out on a limb and say that packrafts are for hikers who want to get on the water, rather than for spending a lot of time on a Great Lake, if that makes sense. Their primary attribute is PACKABILITY- you can easily haul them to remote spots in the backcountry. You mention hiking to boating spots but only as an aside- it seems like you're more interested in boating. (If I'm wrong, please correct me.)

So from your description it sounds like you're more interested in getting out on big water, and not so much on hauling your boat to some remote stream. If that is so and, as I suspect, you're really just getting ready to bite off on owning your own boat, then the issue is "what boat is right for you?"

You mention having to transport it, but it doesn't sound like you're talking about CARRYING it very far most of the time. You just need to store it and get it to the water.

Thus, there are two good options (assuming that I'm correct and that you really aren't looking for a packraft):

Folding kayak
Inflatable kayak

First, folders: http://www.foldingkayaks.org is a decent web forum. And "folding" is really a misnomer- they don't fold per Se. They use a disassembleable internal skeleton on which you place a hullskin of some sort, just like the Inuit did. I can assemble mine in about 20 minutes, and mine is one of the more awkward ones.

Folding kayaks tend to be more expensive. I have one, a Long Haul Mk.2. The Klepper and Long Haul boats are probably far too heavy for your purposes, unless you just want a Long Haul Ute or somesuch:
http://www.longhaulfoldingkayaks.com/boats/ute.php
But the Ute is their SMALL boat and it weighs 21kg! The Kleppers and Long Hauls are hugely over-built expedition craft, meant to take all that you can throw at them, in gawdforsaken locations without support. My Mk.2 is 41kg. Doesn't sound like what you're looking for in ANY way. Their varnished wood frames are works of art- it is not unheardof for their owners to mount them on the wall to admire.

Feathercraft is the elite of folding kayaks, but you certainly pay for it. They make a few smaller/lighter boats that might suit you perfectly, like the K-lite and the Kahuna. Bonus- made in Canada! http://www.feathercraft.com. Most of their boats store in a single backpack, so they are easily storable but not packable the way that a packraft is. Again, these are NOT for packrafting, but I'm not sure that you're really looking for a packraft. Again, correct me if I'm wrong- if I am then others have already given you good advice.

An affordable option is a company called Folbot. They tend to be of lighter construction than the one's I've already mentioned, but as long as you aren't taking one on months-long arctic expeditions they're actually great boats (and there ARE people who have done arctic expeditions in them). They are also pretty easy to repair and work on yourself.
http://www.folbot.com
The Citibot (24 lbs) might be what you're looking for- a bit more expensive than an Alpackaraft at around US$1100, but a HELL of a lot more seaworthy on an open lake. The Cooper is significantly more expensive but if you're seriously considering hitting open ocean at some point it's a much better choice. The Gremlin and Kiawah are somewhere in between. Folbot has a reputation for AMAZING customer service, and there are many accessories and add-on equipment available for them. They've been around forever.

There are other folding boat manufacturers, but these are the big players. If you're a MYOG type look into Yostwerks: http://www.yostwerks.com He is sort of THE MAN when it comes to home-building folding kayaks, and the process is easier than you think. It involves cutting out ribs from HDPE (the plastic kitchen cutting boards) using his templates, and then bending the gunnels onto the ribs. I swear to God that someday I'll make one of his designs.

I'm less knowledgeable about inflatables, so give me a moment to refresh my memory…

Sevylor mostly make cheap stuff more akin to pool-toys, and I wouldn't trust them myself, but if you're really averse to anything but calm open-water paddling something like their Pointer might appeal to you, if only because it's cheap: http://www.sevylor.com/Pointertrade-1-Person-Kayak-P2041C41.aspx

Innova is sort of THE name in expedition inflatables. They tend to be rugged. IIRC a woman paddled one down the Congo, once, or something. Many applicable options, so you'll have to check them out yourself:
http://innovakayak.com
But the Safari or Helios look like your thing, weight about 25-30 lbs, and cost only fractionally more than an Alpackaraft.

NRS makes mostly whitewater boats, but also some ocean kayaks. http://www.nrsweb.com They weren't really what I was looking for, so I never researched them much. They also tend to be rugged.

Advanced Elements makes some interesting designs, too: http://www.advancedelements.com
The AdvancedFrame and AirFusion look interesting, but I can't claim to be knowledgeable about them. (Or any other inflatable, honestly. I'm a folding kayak guy.)

Since you mention never doing technical whitewater you could get one of these (admittedly more expensive) folding or inflatable kayaks to meet your Great Lakes and ocean intentions, and a packraft from one of Alpacka's much less expensive competitors for packing.

so you're saying the scout will perform BETTER than the alpacka in lakes?

WOW thanks! I love to hike and I love water but seeing as I love to do most things solo, the idea of hiking alone to a remote river to paddle in… seems a little risky and over ambitious given my skill level.

The more I think about it, the more I want to have the best in both, separate situations. A light backpack for a nice long hike (so no boating equipment) and a killer fun water toy to play while I live in the city and that is easier enough to bring on commuter trains, buses, subways, and the like seeing as I hail from a town surrounded by 300 lakes and my parents live near the welland canal.

I'll look into your recommendations. I've checked out feathercraft before but the prices scare me… I'm sure they are well worth it but I'd have a save for a year to get one I think. But no DUTY fees would be niiiice!

http://www.orukayak.com/

Ah, the LITERALLY folding kayak…

I remember reading come commentary about it (or something VERY similar) on foldingkayaks.org when it was in development several years ago. Your link has a LOT more info than was available back then, though. IIRC the consensus is that it is probably most appropriate for a city person who just wants to take it to a lake in a park or something. Maybe a retiree might keep it in his RV. Most kayakers wouldn't trust it much farther than that just from the flimsy looks of it. I would want some sort of assurances that the fold won't crack with time, especially in very cold water. And I know that you say you're only interested in calm flat water, but if weather sneaks up on you I could envision that thing crumpling far easier than a skin-on-frame or inflatable. I would at the very least use bow and stern flotation bags with it. And carry a good EPIRB…

But that was, as I said, years ago and no one had actually tried it out. It is certainly extremely clever. You might want to ask on the foldingkayaks.org forum for a more educated opinion. They can answer all such questions much better. (I haven't posted there in a couple of years at least.) But beware- they will try to talk you into a Feathercraft or Klepper! The folding kayakers are sort of a lunatic fringe in their sport in the same way that UL hikers are among the hiking/camping crowd.

EDIT— Yeah, their FAQ sounds like code-speak for "don't even think of taking this out on other than glass-smooth water." For the same price and weight you can get an Innova expedition-worthy inflatable and take it almost anywhere. Inflatables do tend to sit higher out of the water, though, so the wind pushes them around much more than a folder.

I guess if you back me against a wall and want recommendations for someone who is just dipping their toe into urban kayak ownership, I'd say start with Folbot or Innova. I might favor the Folbot, if only because all of the folders that I mentioned tend to keep their resale value pretty well if you ever decide to upgrade. I don't know about the inflatables.

Oh, and there is a reader review of Klepper doubles here on BPL:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/reviews/display_reviews.html?forum_thread_id=5017

Veronique, I picked up a packraft last year and love it. I am 5'10, 32" inseam, and settled on the 2012 Alpacka Yukon Yak with the old-style removable cruiser spray deck, and 4 piece Sawyer paddle. I am a few hours north of Toronto. I have been on quite a few lakes, but none of the "great ones" yet, but planning on it for this summer.

When I was researching boats, I looked at as many as I could: sevylors, feather crafts, flytepackers and of course, packrafts. I only wanted to buy one boat for the time being, so I settled on the Yukon Yak. But, I learned that every boat is a compromise.

Lighter weight boats like the Scout or the FlytePacker are lighter and more packable and (relatively) inexpensive. They will paddle slower, take less cargo, and be worse in rough open water and rapids. If your primarily hiking, and using the boat to cross water, then the compromises make sense for that purpose.

Folding kayaks and larger boats are going to move quickly on open water, but be heavier and less packable, and fairly expensive. By the time you have pfd, paddle, some paddling clothes, food and water, you'd be hard pressed to fit one on a bicycle for instance. If you were primarily paddling, with none or very few portages or hiking sections, then the compromises makes sense.

The Yukon Yak was a compromise in that it is basically what I thought was a jack-of-all-trades boat, and I really wanted to only one boat and use it for many purposes. It was acceptably small enough, but not the lightest, while being acceptably good at open water, but not the fastest, while also being one of the best at rough rapids and whitewater rivers (but I haven't really used it in white water yet).

However, I have never used a folding or inflatable kayak, or a smaller packraft, only the Yukon Yak.

At 5'10" I do find it kind of cramped on long trips actually, though, I think when I try some white water I will like the tight fit. I usually use the larger inflatable explorer seat which I bought separately, which I find puts me in a little bit higher of a position that I find easier to paddle.

The Sawyer 4 piece packrafting paddle is fine for me on open waters, I wouldn't want it any longer. On relatively calm open water achieving 3-3.5 km/hr in the packraft is pretty easy. 3.5-4.5 km/hr is harder, and anything faster is achievable for only short sprints. The good news is that the hull speed is the limiting factor, not the paddle shape or how hard you stroke, so 3-3.5km/hr feels fairly leisurely, something you could keep up all day.

To get an idea of how small the packrafts can be packed check out Roman Dials video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1knHmqDrPeM

and if you haven't seen it, the preview of "The long trek home", shows the capabilities of packrafts in rough open water: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkrJXE9bcZg&list=UUIbRr0OWkZH9fS_gmMtr9mQ&index=13

Also, the packrafting.org and bpl community seem to eat up used packrafts quickly. If you buy something and don't like it, you can probably sell it used quickly and not be out that much at the end.

If you have any questions I can try to answer them. Choosing a boat was definitely a tough choice.

Packrafts are slow on flat water. The new, long mainline boats (Yak, etc) may be a bit better than a shorter boat in this respect, but the percentage gain is tiny.

I do know from personal experience that the smaller out-of-water profile a boat with 10" tubes and no front rocker (like the Scout) is much (as in ~30%) better when going into a headwind, all other things being equal.

Also, this BPL thread has some excellent thought process and analysis for choosing a particular packraft model, though, much of the conversation focuses on whitewater

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=70861

I'm really tempted to buy a Scout or CuriYak this year to see how they compare on 7-10km open water stretches to the Yak.

Edit: I'm not sure how to get hyper links to work.

crap. this is getting confusing!!

so to recap:

a dedicated folding/inflatable kayak:
+ tracks better
+ is faster
+ so probably more fun in the water and offers you more options (covers distance so you can plan a trip around it like to Niagara)
– for those +, you need to spend quite a lot more (like double, triple, etc.)
– foldable setup looks brutal and finicky (aligning everything just right, having to practice to get a better time)
– it may be portable, but its def. bulkier and much heavier
– less spontaneous or ready for a quick paddle: the setup and bulk/weight means I can't just toss it in my bag and see where the day leads me. Plus, with that much effort, I have to have a few hours set aside to make it worthwhile (late workday, get home, get to water, setup kayak, kayak, unsetup kayak, get home… all before dark?

Affordable contenders: Innova Safari @ $899. bulletproof, easiest setup (requires pump), 25lbs, self bailing (so requires a drysuit until it gets warm?) or Helios 1EX @ $899… weird looking and boxy, 29lbs but would keep you drier..

Alpacka raft:
– doesn't track well
– slow
+ light
+ packable for real
+ can work for a wide variety of situations
+ spontaneous and ready for a quick paddle
+ still pricey for me but won't bankrupt me

Contenders:

Alpacka/Yak:
+ 12in tubes = drier if waves are choppy out there
+ can be used in a wider variety of conditions
+ more grab loops for pack attachement
+ looks badass
– more $$
– upturned bow = performs less well (30%) in a head wind on open water
– heavier, bulkier

Scout:
+ lighter, less bulky
+ cheaper, yay!
+ performs better on flat water due to straight bow in windy conditions
– less versatile and maybe less durable!? than the alpacka
– less leg room (does that mean the curriyak and if so, more $$)
– no skirt option for colder water and 10in tubes = more water inside boat so shorter season or drysuit?
– less grab loops or need to buy and install myself in my tiny bedroom. Ugh.

Also, skirt vs. drysuit vs. I already own eVent rain pants and eVent rain jacket plus merino layers… for early spring paddling?

Veronique,
An Alpacka may not end up being the best option for your needs, but even though several people including myself have commented on their deficiency in flat water and winds, I've found that it's not really an issue. They'll never be as fast as a kayak, but they're still good. You can go forward, even in wind!

During my Isle Royale trip, I spent 30 miles in my packraft, all on flat water, including Superior. I never felt a need for a different boat. But, that's just me.

I agree with Travis. In my one season with the Yak, I haven't been disappointed with the flat water speed at all. Sure, it's slower than our canoe, and nothing compared to glass ocean kayak, but I always got where I wanted to go.

In terms of your +/- list: I have slight disagreement with the scout being better on open water than a yak. Yes, it might have less wind resistance when going straight on in the wind (You'd get less help from a tail wind as well! and everyboat, from canoe to yatch suffers a bit in a headwind), but if you have waves to deal with I imagine the upturned bow of the Yak would give it an advantage. I ask myself: if I were on Lake Ontario facing a storm with an backpack strapped to the bow, would I rather be in a scout, or a decked Yak? The answer for me is the Yak. I fully admit that not having been in that situation with either boats, my answer is purely an education speculation, and I welcome any discourse on the matter.

In the BPL thread I link to above, Dan says the only real solution is to have a quiver of different boats. It's a matter of compromising to fit requirements.

Looking at your original post, you outline these requirements:

– living in a tiny closet: packability and small size for storage concern
– something you can use for years
– get to water by walking, bike, or public transit
– possibility of multi-day expeditions such as superior trail in the future
– capable of handling rough/cold conditions of a great lake in the shoulder seasons
– cost concious (addition of a spray skirt almost pushes the price too high)

In my eyes one of the Alpackas (Alpaca or Yak) is the boat that best meets that list of requirements. Yes, other boats will be better at certain aspects, but in terms of fitting the needs you outlined my vote would be for some of the all-purpose Alpackas.

Just got back from the gym and the more I thought about it, the more I want a fun water toy to make city living more bearable when I can't get away.

With this raft, I could rollerblade to the Beaches, inflate my raft, tie the blades on the boat and just go have fun! I could bring it everywhere! I think once I get into the kayak frame of mind, I really want something that will perform like crazy and then the prices are waaay out of my league.

And I hear ya re. the Scout vs. Alpacka/Yak. + I hear the seat is way more confortable.

As for the skirt… I'm on the fence. I want a longer paddling season but how much water will really get in? Is it that much warmer? Would I still require a drysuit or wetsuit or could I just then wear my eVent rainsuit + layers? Do I have to line the bottom to make it warmer with a pad? Is it must have for us Northern Folk?

Thanks again for all your help everyone. I'm super pumped but don't want to make the wrong choice!

Skirt…. Youre not going to have tons of water spilling over the edges, but you'll often have water dripping from your paddle, and if you start hitting any sizable waves, you'll get some splashing.

You do have the option of getting the raft without the skirt and seeing how it works. If you feel that you get too wet, you can always have it retrofitted. But that's an extra hassle.

V, I think you've got the pros and cons down, just have to decide on the compromises. If you plan on doing much multi-day stuff outside warm climates a deck is worth the cash. Adds a ton of warmth, even if the water isn't flying.

Rob is also correct, with a lower-profile boat you get less wind exposure but less float as well. No free lunch.

A drysuit is going to make sense if you do technical water. For your purposes, you will be plenty good with a rain suit, but I still highly suggest the skirt.

I've got to vocally disagree with this one:

"- capable of handling rough/cold conditions of a great lake in the shoulder seasons
In my eyes one of the Alpackas (Alpaca or Yak) is the boat that best meets that list of requirements."

Rough/cold conditions on the great lakes are lethal. Don't do that in a packraft. Hell, don't do that in a glass kayak! A quiet day in the shoulder season is a different matter, but I'd still stay within a 5-minute sprint of shore if I were in a packraft. Taking a swim in a river or pond is inherently different than taking a swim in cold open water.

Packrafts are an acceptable RISK on the ocean, as when Erin and Hig used them for crossing fjords and similar short trips, but they really aren't open-water boats. And I do emphasize the word RISK, there. Granted, to some degree any outdoor activity is a calculated risk, but ask Erin and Hig about all of the times they aborted a crossing…

If when you mentioned hitting the great lakes and the ocean you just meant gunkholing in protected waters right next to shore then, sure, get a packraft. Hell, worst comes to worst you can abandon the raft and swim to shore, assuming you're dressed for conditions. But I would never, for instance, plan a dedicated oceanic packrafting trip in southeast Alaska. I would propose that such an endeavor requires a bit more boat. Perhaps an experienced packrafter will disagree with me.

If you want something backpackable that's also satisfactory for getting out on open water, well, there is no such thing. As mentioned, you would need at least a 2-boat quiver: packraft and kayak/canoe/whatever.

Oh, and inflatables like the Innova are supposedly pretty fast to unpack and inflate. After all, you're just inflating, right? Just like a packraft? OTOH some foldables can take 40 minutes to put together- but most are more like 20 minutes- so yes they take a while and probably a whole day dedicated to boating to make it all worthwhile. But that's not much different than using a monocoque kayak what with all the fuss needed to transport it, etc.

Oh, and I forgot a relevant folding boat maker: Pakboats.

http://pakboats.com/

These are (relatively) affordable, and people do use their canoes on Class III whitewater, so they are probably not particularly fragile. Their smallest kayak starts at USD$890, without deck or sprayskirt. Personally I'd prefer a Folbot in this price-range, but Pakboats offers canoes as well as kayaks and I thought that might appeal to you, being Canadian and all. :)

If you're not in a hurry to get out in open water I'd say, yes, get a packraft. Then if you get more adventurous in the future look into an inexpensive folder or inflatable kayak or canoe.

Regarding Dean's comment about rough/cold conditions being lethal…. yes, I agree. You have to know how to handle your environment and accept any applicable risks. But…

But, for the sake of disucssion, Alpackas are INCREDIBLY tough to tip over. I went out on a lake with the strict purpose of practicing a flip-over with my spray deck on. Granted, it was a calm day, but I literally had to try with dang near all my might to tip the thing. Your center of gravity is really low, and the wide tubes make it very stable.

I don't want to sound like I'm pushing packrafts over another type of craft, just offering my experiences.

I should also mention that I don't go miles into large open waters. I generally stay within a few hundred yards off shore, closer if the wind and waves are high.

Well said, both of you.

I'm a stupawesome (mix of stupid and awesome) girl but not so silly that I don't recognize both the limitations of a small craft like an Alpacka and my skills out on big water.

I think that when I am in a better position financially, I will seriously consider a proper, quality folding kayak but for now, for instant 2013 fun, I think an Alpacka could still make a really fun addition and I don't see how I could regret purchasing one even if I end up with a folding kayak later. Seems like 2 boats is the way to have it all in the future anyway.

For those who are curious and near Toronto, I made a super quick map of where I plan to paddle with my Alpacka. I'd love to get in the water as soon as possible but if conditions (cold water or bad weather) keep me away until June, then that will do too.

I'm not looking to make the 6 o'clock news… yet ;)