ounces of down = ?temp rating?

i remember a few threads where people were complaining about their down products came over the listed weight, and some were happy it came in underweight … of course there is always the chance that the missing weight was from non insulating materials, but unlikely

i would MUCH prefer that a down product came over rather than underweight …

it all depends on the % … if you are taking about some thing with a few ozs the missing down could be substantial …

I don't think the answer you want really exists. Just the simplest variable – size of quilt – makes a huge difference. Adding an ounce of down to a smaller quilt makes much more difference than adding an ounce of down to a much longer and wider quilt.

There becomes a point where the size of the baffles limit the loft it is capable of.

So ill be more specific…

I bought a revelation quilt from Tim last fall (haven't had a chance to use it yet…), 6', wide (56"), 30* with 30% overstuff. The specs say the standard fill should be 11 ish oz of down, total weight of 20.25 oz. And I bought the overstuff, so there should be a tad more, too.

Well, while being bored today while it sleets outside, I took out the scale and my spreadsheet to update my gear list (because that's what girls do on a lazy Sunday….). Turns out the quilt is about 2 oz less than spec'd. My initial thought is that no biggie. Then I weighed my go lite summer quilt and found it to be the same weight and that it didn't pack as small. So it made me think some more…

Now, the EE is better anyway, better down, better nylon, etc. But is 2 oz of down something I should care about? I'm sure Tim would put more in there if I asked him, but I'd rather not have the hassle if 2 oz isn't a big deal. I haven't tested it yet to see how it is temp wise, but I was curious if that amount is going to make that much of a difference anyway.

Should you be concerned with 2 oz less down than spec'd? Absolutely! I would email him and ask if it got mixed up with another order or something.

On your quilt that amount of 900 fill down (1800 cu in) would be at least 0.6 in of extra/missing loft. That is substantial on a 30 F quilt IMO.

Tim often responds to questions like this – just wait a bit?

Are the baffles well filled? If you hold it up to the light, are they completely filled or spots without down? If you shake it sideways, do the baffles stay full without leaving empty spots at the end?

If so, then you're probably good. If not, well, that's what overstuff is supposed to fix.

Maybe the material weighs less than spec.

This is funny – normally people at BPL complain that an item weighs more than spec : )

But, if you paid for down that you didn't get, that's not good.

I always like to find a simple way of working things out, mostly to annoy the "scientific must have a chart" types…
Go to the Western Mountaineering site.
Have a look at the comparison table .
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=products&page=Sleeping%20Bags&ContentId=27
Now compare two bags that have the same dimensions and a different fill.
Check the temperature rating and the difference in fill and that will give you a good idea…
For example a 6' Summerlite has 9 oz of down and rated at 32f
The Ultralite has 15oz and is rated at 20f
so roughly 2f for each extra ounce.
BTW most quilt manufacturers have a similar chart so you can use their charts to determine the possible difference.

Just to complicate things a bit…
Fabric weight is not constant so you could have a quilt an ounce lighter but with the same amount of down inside…
In this case loft should give you a bit of an idea IF you had the other quilt next to it.

Jen,

I still need to lookup your specs per my email but it just occurred to me you may be comparing last years quilt to this years spec table. If this is the case, problem solved. This years quilt is wider and has heavier (but better) straps. It also has 20% overstuff vs last years 10%. So if that's the issue its just a matter of some changes being made to the new quilts which change the weights. If you're comparing it to old stats that's different.

-Tim

As expected…Tim is already working on this..,

Because it might also not be missing down…could the other stuff plus a teeny bit less down plus the innate difficulty of weighing a quilt on a kitchen scale (I did stuff it in a small bag, then subtract the known weight of the bag) all contribute to 1.87 oz??

I am VERY new to being a gram weenie (although I believe it has always been in my blood…) so my overarching question is whether this is even significant enough to bother myself with….

And I am not at all worried…because Tim has over and over again proven himself to be one amazing seller of quilts.

Looked up the Specs on this exact quilt. We weigh every quilt before we ship it. Yours was 19.5oz (with the cords as our weights include them) I looked up on my 2012 sheet and the quilt should have weighed 19.68oz. So it looks like its well within a reasonable amount of deviation. I'm guessing you were looking at the current spec sheets which just don't apply to last years quilts due to size, fill and features changing. Hope that helps

-Tim

Yes, I had written down the specs of the overstuff as 20.5 (I had thought that was from last year..so thanks for looking it up!!)

So…thanks for the heads up and now I will just be very happy that I have such a light quilt ;)

It is possible it said 20.5 on the old site. I always add a little to the weights I post to ensure quilts come in under spec. But the actual mathematical weight was 19.68 on my chart.

-Tim

"I always add a little to the weights I post to ensure quilts come in under spec."

Tim, since that is dishonest, I am surprised that you admit it so freely. I'll make a note of that for future reference.

You can always state a weight as XX ounces plus or minus 0.5 ounce, or something like that.

–B.G.–

Dishonest ?
How is it dishonest to make your product sound worse (or "not as good"..) than it is ?
Tim is over quoting the weight of the full quilt not of the down used….

Bob,

I'm willing to reconsider how I post weights. Since there is always variations in material weights between runs (especially synthetic insulation) I will never post a weight that matches every time. I choose to advertise the high end of the variation instead of the low end or middle. This ensures it always weighs less than I state instead of more.

Is this really considered to be dishonest?

I've seen other vendors post specs then hide a disclaimer that a 5% deviation is normal and they won't do exchanges within that 5%. That means a 60" quilt could be 57" wide. Or a 20oz quilt could weigh 21oz, is this a better practice?

I am not into deception just trying to offer the best specs I know how. I'm open to a better way if there are suggestions.

-Tim

Tim,

I like your style :-)

I like your moves

:-)

Tim, you can always state a weight as XX ounces plus or minus 0.5 ounce, or something like that. That way, you can't get a complaint that it is too heavy, and you can't get a complaint that it is too light (too low on down). High quality down is expensive, and as a raw material, it represents a significant chunk of the retail price. If the customer feels that he has been shorted on the down, at least by weight, then that is a problem. A metal product might be listed as XX ounces plus or minus 0.2 ounce. Other products are not even specified for weight, and a lot of us won't buy them at all.

If you call it XX ounces plus or minus YY fraction of an ounce, and then if you don't meet that, then may a sign of poor quality control.

Some down products will gain weight after they leave the factory, and that is mostly due to humidity. Some manufacturers try to beat that by sealing the down product inside a plastic bag. That way, at least it reaches the customer in a steady state.

I have purchased down products online that were delivered underweight, and I was not very happy. I simply won't purchase any more products from that company.

–B.G.–

Any deviation is due to materials not meeting specs or slight variation in the length of straps or things like that, not down weight. We use high end industrial scales for down and use the same amount each time rounded to the next full gram so if the down weight is off it wouldn't even be a gram. Of course there is always human error but we've done everything possible within our size and resources to assure we are consistent.

Ill look at the weights more closely and consider the +/- thing. Well see where we end up

-Tim

A quilt comes in .82oz off and now the designer is dishonest.

"A quilt comes in .82oz off and now the designer is dishonest."

Tim said actual weight was 19.5oz, should have weighed 19.68oz

That's a 0.18 oz deviation

What I like is that Tim is screwed if he's over weight – doesn't meet lightweight spec, and he's screwed if he's under weight – isn't delivering the amount of down promised

and a 0.18 oz deviation is enough for people to complain

that's okay, we're all entitled to say something trollish from time to time

I have both Western Mountaineering and Phd bags which are 5% over the advertised weights, my Gooses Feet Parka is 2% over the specified weight, if its extra down then happy days :-)

"A quilt comes in .82oz off and now the designer is dishonest."

Michael, I made no such claim about any designer. I made a claim about Tim Marshall, since he is the one who is selling them. I also explained to Tim how to use plus/minus figures to avoid any appearance of dishonesty.

–B.G.–