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quadcopter/drones for backpacking (the future is coming)

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Viewing 25 posts - 51 through 75 (of 110 total)
PostedFeb 5, 2013 at 8:15 pm

The Obama administration gets such a free pass on this madness.

There was so much anti-war activism in the G.W. Bush years, some of which I was a direct part of, all filled with so much animosity towards an administration seen by so many as grossly overstepping its bounds with our military and trampling the personal liberty of US citizens with the Patriot Act, etc. I remember monthly demonstrations in downtown Los Angeles and across the country. Yet somehow those so critical of Bush have lost their fire when it comes to Obama, many still clinging to the fantasy that he's some sort of bringer of peace. I still see Obama stickers with a big peace sign as the "O" on cars…It's surreal.

I wonder if he strokes his Nobel Peace Prize while he's getting debriefed on the latest round of drone attacks.

1
YES, WE CAN!

Michael L BPL Member
PostedFeb 5, 2013 at 8:21 pm

Craig,

Exactly. I was of course more giving bush a pass caught up post 9/11. Came around towards the second term realizing the erosion of our rights. Better late than never I guess.

But it blown up since then even more. Sad how we gladly hand over our rights.

And I think obama doesn't need briefings. Heard he enjoys being hands on as far as the drones go.

PostedFeb 5, 2013 at 8:32 pm

This began as a thread about those tiny little bird-like machines that can go zinging about and annoy people. Why the sudden issue about USA killer drones?
Especially here on BPL.

Roger,
The US citizen angle involves the drone killing of a US citizen also an Al Quada leader and others in Yemen, and has been coming up in the USA in an organized fashion recently on public TV and other media. They may have a pretty good point of US constitutional law, but I would be more concerned about the innocent people of any nations who get killed and maimed in these attacks, a military policy euphemistically called 'collateral damage' that has been a disaster for the USA at least since the early days of the Vietnam conflict, and is well covered in Neil Sheehan's book about John Paul Vann in Vietnam entitled, "A Bright Shining Lie." Our recently appointed Secretary of State opposed this policy vigorously as a young veteran.

I'll never forget the Aussies I knew in Vietnam, the most capable and professional soldiers I ever met anywhere. I agree with your sentiment, if not opinion. A lot of civilian folks nowadays don't really understand what war is all about. That's probably a good thing, as long as they are against it. They are better off for not knowing.

BTW, on the original point of this thread, under common law that generally applies in the USA, air space over land is owned by the land owner to significant altitudes in most cases. Recreants can't just send their copters zinging about over areas owned by others, including persons and state and local govermnents. I'm not a 'legal expert,' just a retired legal aid lawyer.

MYOGers might also be interested in taking a look at all the carbon fiber parts for these copters that are being sold on Ebay. Might be something useful there.

PostedFeb 5, 2013 at 8:49 pm

That's a good read Doug, thanks.

One dark thought (amongst many) about drone warfare that lurks in the back of my mind:

I play video games with my 11 year old son quite a bit. He's good. I mean really good. I know he plays online (I play online with him) but I recently found out he's got a "reputation", even amongst college and adult gamers. I actually heard about my son through an ex-student that now attends UC Berkely and is also a gamer…
(Thankfully, my son is also his class president, an avid reader, and loves camping too…)

That said, if you were to convert the controls of a drone to an Xbox controller platform and give them some time to learn, I'm willing to bet that my son (as well as legions of other teens and tweens in this country) could probably go toe to toe with some of the best drone pilots out there. We have an entire generation that is literally growing up simulating what the Air Force doesn't start training adults to do until the age 18 or later…

I hear a lot of talk about Orwell's 1984 these days. How about Ender's Game?

Trill Daddy BPL Member
PostedFeb 5, 2013 at 9:20 pm

A good friend of mine is a GoPro athlete and shared a photo of a GoPro "drone" that is slated for 2013/2014.

It uses live-Feed from a GoPro cam to transmit video- pretty badass.

PostedFeb 5, 2013 at 10:41 pm

Good reference and we will all learn very soon what continual modernization of warfare means to us and our descendents.

The experiences of B52 pilots vs infantry during the Vietnam Conflict may provide a sense of how the reality of casualties may be perceived by future warriors.

PostedFeb 5, 2013 at 11:52 pm

A lot of money and danger to aircrews could be spared with S & R drones out covering grid patterns searching for missing persons with optical and IR cameras. Could save a lot of lives.

OTOH, I AM serious about an "open drone hunting season". If I knew private drones were monitoring an area for invasion of privacy reasons I'd be very tempted to shoot them down. With a good magnum chambered rifle, Horus reticle scope and laser rangefinding ballistic programmable binoculars one could have some fun here in Nevada's open deserts. Jus' sayin'…

Or… just use "electronic counter-measures" to scramble their control signals. That's a less pointy stick method of dealing with what will be a nusiance in the future. I use a radar/lidar scrambler in my car to good effect.

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 1:05 am

> It lets the US kill its own citizens without due process.
Sigh.
This completely avoids the basic facts of WAR.
It also avoids answering my basic question.

Every legal convention about war that I know of allows a legitimate military force which comes under fire to return that fire.

In this case the US forces are in Afghanistan at the request of the internationally recognised elected Afghan government. This gives them the same legal status as the Afghan army. They are dealing with a internationally recognised terrorist organisation – Al-Quaeda. The internationally accepted rules of war are quite clear about legal actions in this case.

The so-called 'legal experts' in this case are probably Tea Party supporters solely concerned with attacking Obama. THAT is politics.

In this case Obama did not create any new law or erode anyone's legal rights. If you go to fight for the enemy against your own country, you become a traitor and you forfeit your normal civil rights. The order was simply an operational matter of how the military forces should procede, within the rules of war.

If you don't know about the rules of war, read up on them and then on the Geneva Conventions and the Hague Conventions for a start. The former date back to 1864, the latter to 1899. The fine details place limits on the treatment of non-combatants; it is assumed that combatants can and will kill each other.

For the record, I think the USA was stupid to get involved in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but that is a separate matter. I also think the Afghan government is riddled with corruption (they are in broad company), but that too is irrelevant here.

Cheers

PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 4:31 am

This isn't some conspiracy ,it's real.
When I was a little boy America was supposed to be the good guy. We didn't torture, we didn't spy on citizens and search them without a warrant. We believed all people were equal under the law it didn't matter if you we're a rich Wall Street banker a politician or a janitor. Back then all people where innocent until proven guilty by s court of law.
All that has changed. We are not that country anymore. There is nothing special about America anymore were just like any other corrupt country.The only thing special about us is our military power. international law is meaningless Who will challenge us? Will Australia? We have no transparency we don't even know for sure what our own government is up too. We are slowly becoming another third world nation a country for and by special interest. War on terror,war on drugs war,war,war. And even our press fails us and whistleblowers are the new public enemy and any one who protest and complains about corruption and growing inequality is told to just stop whining. There needs to be some major changes and major social upheaval to get back our civil and constitutional rights with a lawful and transparent government that serves the public interest.

Arapiles . BPL Member
PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 4:47 am

"OTOH, I AM serious about an "open drone hunting season". If I knew private drones were monitoring an area for invasion of privacy reasons I'd be very tempted to shoot them down."

Edited

Kattt BPL Member
PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 5:08 am

Roger:
"The so-called 'legal experts' in this case are probably Tea Party supporters solely concerned with attacking Obama. THAT is politics. "

So very wrong Roger. Among many other non Tea Party members…my brother supports Obama, is not a US citizen, IS one of the legal experts , teaching and publishing on such matters in several languages and in charge of the Legal team for another county's armed forced on active duty…..and he vehemently condemns this.

In my opinion, you are the one dragging politics into this.

Nick Gatel BPL Member
PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 5:33 am

Roger,

The US Constitution is very clear on the purpose of out military;

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions"

I don't recall Afghanistan or Iraq invading us.

The Constitution does not grant the Government the authority to engage in nation building or going to war at the request of other countries.

The Constitution is also explicit on dealing with traitors;

"The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed."

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."

We created the terrorist problem by interfering with governments. Most of the despots we have killed or supported their killing, we at one time supported with military and/or financial aid — something not authorized by our Constitution.

I was in the military and support a strong US military, but I more strongly support our Constitution and Declaration of Independence.

Sent with my iPhone – please forgive any spelling or grammar errors.

PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 6:03 am

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions"

The problem here is that this is a power granted to Congress, but it does not exclude other military action. It is saying that congress has the power "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions", but it does not say what they don't have the power to do nor that they have exclusive jurisdiction.

What I am curious about is when is your right to trial suspended? I assume that imminent danger voids it, but what exactly does that constitute?

Nick Gatel BPL Member
PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 6:09 am

Michael,

Refer to The Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights for the freedoms that cannot be restricted.

PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 6:25 am

But all of those can be restricted. You cant yell fire in a crowded building with no fire. You can't own certain weapons. If you start shooting at someone, you essentially waive your right to trial. What constitutes an excessive fine? The constitution and the amendments are full of restrictions, regulations, and exceptions.

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 7:21 am

Drone strikes in Afganistan may qualify as war and thus make sense

What about Yemen? or other countries that we're not at war with?

Drones make it too easy, with no human lives at risk

If we do drone attacks against someone that can't defend themselves, they'll be more likely to retaliate with some terrorist attack

I'm not being critical of what they've done so much as we need to move in the direction of having fewer military actions. More effective to build roads and hospitals in Afganistan or wherever. At least we're "out" of Iraq and getting out of Afganistan.

PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 1:03 pm

I am definitely getting one of those things! At current exchange rates, that's only 195,675 dollars!

Jerry Adams BPL Member
PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 3:44 pm

"I play video games with my 11 year old son quite a bit. He's good. I mean really good. I know he plays online (I play online with him) but I recently found out he's got a "reputation", even amongst college and adult gamers."

Your son is already obsolete.

The computer does all the real time stuff. Too much time delay from video camera to satelite to operator back to satelite back to drone.

Which takes us to Asimov's laws for robots:

A robot will not harm a human

A robot will obey humans unless it violates rule #1

PostedFeb 6, 2013 at 10:22 pm

The arguments invoking US citizenship against Roger's premises miss a few points:

The US Constition prescribes what creates US citizenship, but not all that may forfeit it. Section 349(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(3)] provides for loss of U.S. nationality if an American voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship enters or serves in foreign armed forces engaged in hostilities against the United States.

None of us can have listened to every utterance by Awlaki about his US origins, but it would not be at all surprising if somewhere along the line he took occasion to renunciate his US citizenship.

Even without that, a federal lawsuit involving this issue was dismissed by a federal judge (a 'legal expert'?) who found the issue perplexing and declined to act on the basis of "political questions."

The whole subject is well covered in a NY Times article at:
http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/a/anwar_al_awlaki/index.html
The article discusses at length the grounds upon which the Obama administration determined to proceed against al-Alwaki as it did. Those who disagree with Roger might learn something from it.

In an era where global organizations are becoming increasingly powerful, moreso than many sovereign states, direct military hostilities by such organizations against the USA may be far more threatening than those originating from foreign countries. Sometimes offense is not just the best defense, it is the only means of defense.

With respect to Roger's comments about the motives of the salon.com initiative, I also noted that some of the those pushing the citizenship argument had strong Republican Party complections. Sometimes someone a little removed from a situation can see it more clearly than those of us who are directly involved in the midst of it.

None of that negates my aforementioned over-riding concern about the slaughter of innocent people from "collateral damage," not to mention provisions in several recent defense authorization acts making provision for the arrest and indefinite detention, incommunicado, of persons, including US citizens, determined by the US military to be terrorists. Shades of the disappeared in countries ruled by fascist regimes.

When I wrote to my Republican Senator about this, I got over five single spaced pages of argument that boiled down to, 'We've always been able to do this, so it is OK to codify it in a law.' What puzzles me is how we so often get wound up in the US about some issues, and ignore more serious issues looming over us. Haven't quite figured it out, but maybe it has something to do with the diminution of the quality of communication on the internet, twitter, facebook, talk radio and TV, etc., the dumbing down of our educational system, and mindless fads that seem to rage on in this environment.
We can do much better, and must if we want to survive.

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedFeb 7, 2013 at 12:43 am

I asked the following simple question:
'Imagine you are leading a US Army patrol in, say, Afganistan, patrol an area known to be threatened by Al-Quaeda. You come under fire. Are these 'legal experts' demanding that the patrol leader trot up to the enemy combatants to ask them 'Any of you chaps American?''

I see Sam has been game to answer this simple question, but so far no-one else has really. Thanks you Sam.

So let me up the ante by asking another very simple question – and there is a bonus question with it.

Imagine that US armed forces cannot return fire without first checking to see whether any of the hostiles are (or had been) American citizens. US solders in Afghanistan will get killed as a result (how many thousand body bags so far?).
Question: how do you explain this command to the parents, wives and children of the dead US soldiers?

Bonus question following this one:
How many weeks will it be before every US soldier resigns from the US Army as a result?

I await lots of really helpful answers to these simple questions (but no avoiding the issue).

Cheers

Mark Fowler BPL Member
PostedFeb 7, 2013 at 2:09 am

Nick Gatel commented "The Constitution does not grant the Government the authority to engage in nation building or going to war at the request of other countries."

Gee Roger, It's a pity the Australian Constitution doesn't contain the same requirement.
We wouldn't have been dragged in to supporting the US in Vietnam, Iraq 1 or Iraq 2 or, no doubt other conflicts – or would we!

PostedFeb 7, 2013 at 9:15 am

Wait! I changed my mind. Instead of a drone, I want a rolling iPad holder to hike ahead of me and show me what's coming up! Anybody can have a drone, I'll be the only kid on the block with a Double telepresence robot!

From the marketers:

Live Vicariously Through Your iPad — It will probably be some time before the Double telepresence robot from Double Robotics becomes commonplace, but it easily took the prize for the coolest product at Macworld/iWorld. Double consists of a self-balancing driving cylinder with an extensible stalk, topped by an iPad. The idea is that you can use another iPad over the Internet to control where your Double goes and see what its iPad camera sees while displaying your face on its iPad, all in real time. You can even raise and lower the stalk to maintain face-to-face conversation whether the other people are sitting or standing. … Double weighs only 15 pounds (6.8 kg) and can operate all day on a single charge. It’s not cheap though, listing for $2,499 and available for pre-order for $1,999, with an early 2013 ship date.

.double

Viewing 25 posts - 51 through 75 (of 110 total)
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