BD Epic tents in the Sierras?

Yep. I've used both a Lighthouse and a Firstlight extensively in the Sierra—on and off the JMT and in all 4 seasons. They are ideally suited for Sierra conditions. My personal experience has been one of minimal condensation(experiences will vary—I expect one of our frequent posters to disagree on this, hee, hee ;-) — and very fast set-up (once you've set it up a few times) including during snowstorms and Sierra thunderstorm driven deluges where I appreciated the ability to set up the tent from the inside out of the weather.

They are among my very most favorite tents of all-time.

Hey, I don't know who this frequent poster is who will disagree… but I certainly agree with you. A breathable and highly rain resistant single wall tent such as the various BD Epic models would be ideal for the Sierras — where humidity is low to moderate and multi-day rain deluge in the off season is rare.

Bingo! ;-{)- we want emoticons , we want emoticons.

I was in a three day rain/drizzle fest last june in CO in my Firstlight.

I had not nor since sealed the seams. The only wet spot in my tent was directly below the rear vent where it had been inverted somehow. I sopped it up with my small camp towel.

It would rain hard for an hour then drizzle the next three then sunshine for an hour, repeat for three days.

My Firstlight and I held up fine. I would not use it as a 2 person tent though except maybe in the winter where weight and warmth demand a premium.

I had my BD Firstlight in hard, continuous rain — and it held just fine for NINE HOURS! The Epic fabric can more than handle the type of intermittent hard rain / drizzle / sunshine that Christopher described above.

I tested my tent on three separate occasions (this was three winters ago when we had a 99-year record rainfall) and each time — after 9 or so hours — when water finally overwhelmed the fabric, it just seeped in from almost everywhere — and "rained" inside. This wasn't anything that you could "just sponge off every now and then".

Nine hours is longer than many other people's experience. I've read anywhere from 5 hours to 10 hours. But even 9 or 10 hours is not a lot if you think about it. Say it's 3pm and it's been raining all day, and your group decides to stop and call it a day. Here's your dilemma: do you set up your tent right then and there, like everybody else? But what if the rain continues through the night (which it certainly can)? With 9 hours starting at 3pm, that will only keep you dry to midnight — and you may well be screwed after that! Or do you wait in the rain until 9pm to set up yours — so you know you can stay dry until 6am the next morning???

For me, on multi-day hikes, if I know prolonged rain is a possibility, I wouldn't rely solely on a rain-resistant shelter — anymore than I would rely solely on a rain-resistant wind jacket. I would just carry the extra 8 ounces of my rainproof tent and cut those few ounces out elsewhere if I have to.

But then again, I've used a Lighthouse in multi-day rainstorms in the Cascades without leakage with continous bouts of rain, upwards of 12 hours. So, experiences will vary. I don't consider the BD Epic tents as "rain resistant" but as a full fledged all-weather shelter in Western mtn. conditions. However, BD is careful to state that the tents will keep precip out in "all but the most severe conditions".

I would not use a single ply tent of any material in lower altitude conditions of high humidity and higher temps. I probably would not use these tents in the South or East Coast.

Ben,

How difficult would it be to rig a poncho over the tent.

If I am expecting soggy weather I carry both a poncho and Drop Stopper Jacket.

why bring a tent during August. If you have a tarp or a poncho tarp, that should suffice. From Yosemite to Mt. Whitney you will encounter some thundershowers that arrive in the afternoon. They only last a few hours at best and then it is normal service resumed. As for multi day rain storms in the Sierra's…not very likely. The only chance of that is a wierd low over the Pacific and an on shore flow. Again, very rare. As for insects, the mosquito wars have all but ended by then. I just look at taking a tent to be overkill (unless of course, that is your comfort level). Most of the days that you will be hiking you will be hiking high and sleeping low. I would gladly take my Gatewood Cape instead of a tent and bivy. 11 ounces of full protection and it is a dual use piece of gear. Just my take. Enjoy your hike, 'tis beautiful country!

Kevin:

I'd be careful about using the term "full fledged all weather shelter" — even in Western mountain conditions. Depending on the season… we got rained on really long and hard at Weminuche, southwestern Colorado once. The BD shelter would NOT have cut it — nor was it designed for that kind of deluge. The important thing is that we use the tools for the purpose that they are designed for!

Your 12-hour experience shows that the BD tent can hold up extremely well. However, my experience and the experiences of others, also show that rain certainly can make its way through in as little as 5 hours — although most can count on longer performance. The key word here is "CAN" — and that's not something that should be ignored or taken lightly.

Richard:

You will need poles and guylines to rig a jacket above the tent while not touching it. Draping a jacket or poncho and securing it to the tent will affect the fabric's breathability! My experience is that in prolonged rain, breathability is significantly compromised even without anything draped on the tent. Basically, you can expect condensation to form — and drip — before rain from the outside starts to seep in.

One other thing that makes things even worse in prolonged rain. The cold, metallic poles are set up inside the tent. These act like "condensation magnets" — where droplets form all along the lengths of these poles.

Again, I am only talking about prolonged rain. But if that condition is a possiblity at all, then I would sooner just bring a rainproof tent.

Ben, you are not reading my post carefully. I stated that experiences can vary and that I UNDERLINE I, consider it a full fledged all-weather shelter within parameters I describe. But I am far from the only one who has had longer term waterproof performance then the 5-9 hours you are citing.

We will always disagree, Ben, on this subject, as we have over several seasons on a couple of different forums. Better for both of us to move on and let others give their take.

One further thing to add about Epic

Kevin:

I really think that it is important to highlight both the strengths and weaknesses of a tent that's designed and made with rain resistant fabric. My experience is actually better than some other people's — but it is still important to let potential buyers know that when rain starts to seep through, there's almost no stopping it. I do not dispute your 12 hour experience at all — but it is still important to know that depending on circumstances, rain can work through the fabric in as little as 5 hours, or 9 hours, or 12 hours!

I am sure that readers know that I am not attacking these wonderful tents, but merely emphasizing that they ought to be used in the conditions that they are desgined for.

To be blunt, Kevin, I shudder when I read phrases like "full fledge / all weather". To me, that's misleading, irresponsible, and downright dangerous. I have called you on this in the past — and will continue doing so. You seem to think that your 12-hour experience is the standard that others can expect from these tents — and that's just not something that can always be counted on.

Now, you are just plain being a jerk, Ben.

Nope, not at all.

I will just repeat that the tent's rain resistance performance can vary from 5 to 12 hours. I hope you noticed that I have never disputed your experience — not even once. It's just as legitimate as mine or anybody else's. But it's only when you use terms like full-fledge / all weather that I feel the need to chime in. These tents are not what you described — even in Western mountains — where prolonged rain can and does occur.

I can certainly appreciate your enthusiasm for these tents. But folks ought to know the tents' limitations as well. Either way, there's no reason to resort to name calling.

Does the DWR break down or what? And how do they do in high winds? They are meant to be above timber tents right? They seem like they would be fragile at some point. Anyone torn one setting it up? They don't seem that much lighter than the regular Binlers or ID tents considering the risks.

This is my final communique to you Ben2world. I feel that you are attacking, not only my experiences but my ethical credibility. I take this extremely personally. I am always careful to state what is my subjective experience and opinion from official pronouncements and "facts". I do not consider myself as ever misleading anyone.

I have noticed that this is not the 1st time you have done this to someone on backcountry forums and I thought it inappropriate for you to have done that to them then. I'm only sorry I didn't say something then.

I will not respond to your posts in future. I don't care for your style.

Kevin:

I changed my post above, but you responded before I finished. I hope you can differentiate that I see your experience as completely legitimate, but disagree with your view that this tent is "all weather". You have caveated western mountains this time, but have left the statement open ended in the past. Either way, I still disagree.

Sumi:

No, it's not a matter of DWR breakdown at all.

In traditional rainproof tents, rain is kept out using two methods. First, the DWR on the outer surface causes rain to bead up and roll off. However, this method has its limitations — and water will eventually seep through if it rains long and hard enough. It's the reason why DWR treated windshirts are still no substitute for full-fledge rain gear.

Secondly, there is also a PU coating on the underside of the fabric that blocks any water that seeps through the fabric, despite the DWR. Indeed, it is the PU coating that is doing the heavy work, so to speak.

But PU coating cuts breathability way down! Epic fabric uses DWR as the first step, but elimates the second step (PU coating). Instead, it encapsulates its fabric fibers with silicone. This is much better than just relying on DWR alone — but still not "waterproof" like a traditional PU coating barrier.

The Epic tents are designed for 3-season use, and IMO, they are certainly robust enough. These tents are light, much lighter than the fully wp/b Bibler tents of comparable sizes.

Sumi, Epic relies on it's silicon encapsulated structure to repel water—this is a life of the fabric trait. It won't (not that I've heard of, anyway) wash out.

The BD tents were designed by Climbers and Alpinists for the rigors to be found in Alpine mtn. environments. These tents have been used around the world for high-altitude mtneering. Not a few people use them on Winter extended ski-touring trips.

I don't do the high- altitude thing much anymore, but I have used them in extreme wind conditions. Yep, I'd say they are more delicate than the Biblers but tents of this extreme light weight tend to be. It's no more fragile than my Stephenson, for example. I've not experienced any pole failures (don't use after market Fibraplex poles w/ them). After you pass the learning curve of setting up your BD tent ( this is mostly nervousness of the thought of poking a hole in your expensive new tent) you will not poke a hole setting it up. I suppose someone, somewhere could do it.

They are significantly lighter than the Biblers and ID's on a floor space per oz. basis. I think the difference justifies the "risks", myself. I passed on my Bibler I-tent, for what it's worth.

I don't own one and can't vouch for the performance, but I know a Canadian Mtn Guide who used one during a rainy night last year in the Bugaboos in BC, and had water pooled inside his tent. He said his sleeping bag was soaked so he spent the next night in the Lodge with his clients.

BT;

I'll stick with my Integral Designs MK XL then. With carbon poles and mini doors and light floors it's right at 4 lbs, even a little less I think – will have to check.

Frankly, Sumi, I would be more worried about using Carbon poles w/ your ID–assuming they are the Fibraplex ones. Those I have seen break in high winds. I've also heard of not a little anecdotal evidence of them not doing so well w/ large snowloads, as well. Might be ok for normal summer backpacking. Still, they have their fans. If you have Easton Carbon Poles, they are much, much better (though heavier).

I think the ID tents as well as the Biblers (now BD) are superb single wall mountain tents. With stock Alum poles I've used the I-tent in Patagonia—probably the most consistantly high winds I've ever experienced— and though there was some deflection, it just hummed. The ID would perform similarly.

I believe the ID Mk 1 XL tent w/ Easton Carbon Poles weighs about 4 lbs. 8 oz. With the light floor option, it is right around 4 #.

I did not realize my post was higher up. Hopefully it is just a matter of time before somebody makes lighter poles that can hold up. I do use the aluminum poles when I expect tougher conditions.

This argument is showing that maybe carbon is not what it is cracked up to be! That figures. I would also like to say my ID tents have always done supremely well with breathability. I have seen posts that make it sound inferior to Event and the like. Maybe it is, but I have never had an experience that would drive me away from the ID tents.

Echoing the above, I own a set of Fibraplex carbon fiber poles, and as much as I love their lighter weight, I would never use them under heavy winds or any snowload greater than 'moderate'.

Fibraplex poles need to be set up slowly and carefully. If the section tips are not inserted fully into each other — then you can pretty much expect an instant breakage as soon as you try to insert the tip end into the tent grommet! No warning at all — even in the calmest and balmiest of weather! But if the poles are carefully and properly set up, then they are fine for 3-season use.