Scarp 2 for winter?

Hi Eric,

From reading your past posts I know you have been looking at the Scarp over the past couple of years so probably have read all the reviews and Bpl posts. I used the Scarp 1 for at least half a dozen winter trips in the Uk and really liked it but ended up replacing it when I moved to the US.

I had the Scarp out in 70mph and it worked like a champ but the cross poles are an absolute pain to put in place if wearing thick gloves also the cross poles pop out of the grommets at times.

To me the Scarp is a 3.5 season tent, don't get me wrong the Scarp is an outstanding tent, maybe with your mods it might do better but just be sure the cross poles do not abrade the the inner due to friction.

Cheers,

Stephen

So far these are my mods:

1. Purchased heavy duty main pole (larger diameter & heavier tube walls)
2. Sewed Velcro cable wraps inside the fly to the exterior reinforcements for the crossing pole straps. These hold the crossing poles in place & prevent fly flapping.
3. Seam sealed every sewn-thru area except the bottom hem.
4. Coated the top of the fly with 5:1 ratio of odorless mineral spirits to clear GE silicone caulk (& wiped it down with a blue paper shop towel for uniformity of coating).
5. sewed the crossing pole grommeted tabs into the 4 interior corners just above the triangulated CF struts. These will once again recieve the crossing pole ends.

The final step is shortening the crossing poles to fit inside the fly. That happens this weekend.

I have only two concerns, or questions—Does the solid inner touch your sleeping bag anywhere when you're atop your pad(s)? Especially the footbox at the end of the tent? Often this can lead to condensation wetting the bag.

Also—I looked on the TarpTent website and couldn't find the floor denier of this tent. Is it 30 denier? If so that is pretty thin when sleeping on snow/wet snow as the weight of your body could sponge in water (hydrostatic stuff and all).

I have had my Scarp I on many a winter trip and have had no problems with setting up in deep snow or high winds. My bag has never gotten wet in the tent from condensation, and depending on where you are set up, you can get condensation. I have seen many 4 season tents not perform as well as the Scarp, but many people do not know how to properly set up a tent in winter.

I posted photos of the modded Scarp 2 on the GEAR page. It's "stout" and I'm satisfied it will take a lot of wind.

"Also—I looked on the TarpTent website and couldn't find the floor denier of this tent. Is it 30 denier? If so that is pretty thin when sleeping on snow/wet snow as the weight of your body could sponge in water (hydrostatic stuff and all)."

Hydrostatic head doesn't have anything to do with denier.

Dernier is the weight in grams of 9000 meters of the fiber .
So 30d means that 9000 linear meters (5.59 miles) of that fiber weighs 30g.

Here are the photos of my modded Scarp 2. Unseen is the heavier main pole in the yellow sleeve (larger diameter & heavier walled tubing).

By placing the internal crossing pole ends at the apex of the CF corner rods I am using the strength of a triangle to take the downward pressure. The grommeted webbing is sewn through the black Hypalon exterior corner reinforcements for max strength in this critical area.

Along with main pole guylines, ski pole tie-outs at each end to the canopy attatchment and DIY fly hem stake loops I feel this is a tent that can withstand a long bout of high winds and not tear itself apart.

Oh, yeah, I always use a 3 mil painter's sheet as a groundcloth so there will be no worry about the floor freezing to the snow. In addition I've coated the exterior of the floor (& top 1/2 of the fly) with a 5:1 ratio of odorless mineral spirits to GE silicone caulk. This coating should not readily freeze to the snow.

WHADDYA think Franco? Did I do the Scarp 2 justice? This was a PROJECT!

Here are some shots of the apex inside and the inner tent attatched showing the clearance.

What is the total cost for your mod Eric? How much for parts and how much time for labor? And what's the total weight?

Ken,

COST-> about $30. for stronger main pole (I forget the exact price from Tentpole Technologies) A few $$ for extra Triptease cord, GE clear silicone caulk and some "odorless" mineral spirits and a brush. Maybe $50. total.

TIME->

1 day for sewing on hem stake loops, inside corner grommets (taken off of outside Triptease lines)and Velcro cable wraps to factory X-ing pole reinforcement patches.

1 day for coating & wiping down top 1/2 of fly and outside of floor with 5:1 ratio of odorless mineral spirits to GE clear silicone caulk. Plus sealing all seams and your own new hand stitching. (HINT: Do this entire sealing procedure LAST.)

1 day to measure, cut and place X-ing poles inside You also need a 1/4" wide adjustable nylon webbing strap at the apex to pull up the X-ing poles a bit. (At REI.)

WEIGHT-> The tent weighs virtually the same (2 oz. more) B/C the shortened X-ing poles offset the heavier main pole, inside peak strap and hem stake loops.

BIG STORM GUYLINES-> I used Triptease line, Line Loc tensioners and Tarptent's nylon snap hooks to make 4 guylines. 2 guys for the main pole, 2 guys for a hiking/ski pole at each end, clipping into the provided center fly attatchment point (thanks Henry), around the pole and down to a stake. The clips are strong enough but may break in very extreme winds. Better they break than the fly rip open at guy attatchment points. HOWEVER… you can pass the plastic clip through the attatchment loop and clip it back on the guy line, putting more strain on the line itself and less on the clip.

If you really know you're likely to face high winds bring or make stakes or deadmen for all guys, all hem loops plus the normal 4 corner stakes. Then pray for a quiet night.

@ Walter: I'm 5' 10" so my bag has plenty of room lengthwise W/O touching the inner tent. Plus I've DWR'd my bag with Revivex in case it does touch a frosty inner wall. I always use a 3 mil ground sheet in winter.

Eric,

Any issues with the poles causing friction on the tent outer in strong winds?

I observed no pole friction on the fly in 30-45 mph winds when testing in a nearby park. That is no flapping or beating of the fly against the poles, no movement of the fly across the poles.

I really doubt if the Velcro wraps inside are entirely necessary until you get "pole-deforming winds" at around 65-85 mph. gusts. They are there to prevent poles being forced off location and deforming.

There ARE wind storms so severe it is necessary to lean your back against the inside poles to keep the tent up. I've only experienced that with one other tent many years ago in a storm in Canada.

Hi Eric

In response to your PM:
> 1. Purchased heavy duty main pole (larger diameter & heavier tube walls)
This is definitely stronger, but you knew that. Probably now essential.

> 2. Sewed Velcro cable wraps inside the fly to the exterior reinforcements for the
> crossing pole straps. These hold the crossing poles in place & prevent fly flapping.
Just checking: the diagonals no longer go to the ground but to eyelets at the top of the CF corner poles? Assuming that is so …

The tent can now sway a bit because the diagonal poles no longer hit the ground. The guys at the ends of the poles will stop some movement, but sideways movement would still be possible with single guys. If you put 2 guys at each corner, at right angles to each other, that would stop most of the sway – at the cost of a little bit more string and some extra stakes. Could be worth while.

The Velcro loops are extremely important imho. Without them the fly would collapse in a wind as the diagonal poles would go sideways fast. Whether there is enough Velcro there, or whether wider velcro would be better – time will tell. I would always do them up, every time.

The only thing holding the diagonal poles up is the main exterior pole. The CF corner poles will not support the diagonals that way very well. (I couldn't see them, but you mentioned them, so I am assuming they are there.) The strap coming down from the peak looks solid enough – webbing and a metal hook? So the main exterior pole is pretty crucial.

I think the CF corner poles are going to be essential as well. They need to be 'embedded'.

I can't see any guys on the main exterior pole. To my mind, some guys on that pole will be essential in bad weather. I would put them about 800 mm above the ground, but using the existing black anchor points would be easiest.

The single main exterior pole will be all that is holding the tent up in heavy snowfall. I doubt that this single pole is strong enough to take a serious snow loading, so you may need to keep knocking the snow off during the night. painfull, but better thsan having it collapse on top of you. :-)

I couldn't see the inner tent in your photos, so no comment there.

I have used a dome tent (MYOG, late 1960s) in bad weather and had to get inside to place the poles into the sleeves. I was told the sight of me heaving around inside the tent fighting the poles was quite funny from the outside. Hopefully, with the exterior pole, the Scarp won't be as bad.

Cheers

Roger,

Even with the factory configuration of exterior X-ing poles they never "went to ground" the ends were secured in the very same grommeted webbing however originally this webbing was attatched to corner stake lines.

By sewing the grommets inside at the apex of the two carbon fiber corner poles I've utilized the inherent strength of the triangle as the base for each end of the internal X-ing poles. To my mind this is a much better distribution of force than the original exterior X-ing pole configuration, not to mention less stress on the corner lines and stakes. With Henry's CF corner pole triangle only one corner guy line stake is needed. And THAT line in itself forms another triangle – deucedly clever, eh? Plus I get the added benefit of fly support being distributed over a much larger area, which was my original goal.

As to your thought that the main pole supports the entire load of snow I disagree a bit. I've since realized I don't need that center strap pulling up on the X-ing poles at the apex. So now the X-ing poles only push UP, thus helping the main pole.

Apart from a "tree avalanche" of snow I see no load that could possibly collapse the tent as modded. (And I like to think I'm smart enough not to park the tent under a snow laden tree.) Wind is the real enemy. Lateral wind loads are my worry. Those rather wide ends of the tent present a vulnerable side to the wind, thus all the pole supported guying.

Yes, one should imbed in the ground both the corner CF rod ends and especially the center end CF rod a bit for more stability. Once done the stake lines hold them in place with tension downward from the top of the lines.

As mentioned in posts above, I have two sets of prepared guylines with attatched snap hooks and LineLoc tensioners. One set is for the main pole guy loops and one longer set for the end fly guy loops (to be used with walking/ski pole stays). A clove hitch around the pole handles & down to the stake is all that is required, as I'm sure you're very familiar with this method.
BTW, all four of these attatchment loops came with the tent from the factory. Good thinking Henry!

P.S. I'm testing it again tonight in the back yard as very high winds and heavy rains are expected. The tent is on its own tonight. If it fails well, back to the drawing board. But so far in earlier testing it has held up well in 45-50 mph. winds.

Hi Eric,
I forgot about this thread, I don't look at the winter stuff all that often.

Yes I like the mod.

My original version of the poles under the fly bit was simply something I did in the middle of the night just to see if it could be done.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=19720

I did that with the poles I had so it was a little bit more cumbersome to do.
in the end the idea was the same, that is to have the interior poles pushing down into the Pitch Lock corner to take advantage of the strength of it and help with holding up the main pole.
I might mod my Scarp 1 to something like that too…

BTW, I had in mind the built in poles of the Bibler tents, something inbetween the I (Impotent…) and the Pinon design, however the poles I had where too long so I had to do a double crossover creating that flat spot at the the top.
I then used the Moment and the Notch so I did not bother following that up.

Hi Eric and Franco

> Even with the factory configuration of exterior X-ing poles they never "went to
> ground" but were in the very same grommeted webbing attatched to corner stake lines.

Hum … the Scarp 2 photo #3 on Henry's web site seems to show the poles going to ground. Has there been a recent change in design of the poles? Or what?

Cheers

Who are you going to believe, me or your eyes ?
(Groucho Marx)

It's just the angle on that photo that makes them look like they rest on the ground but they are in fact floating in the air.
The load is taken up by the corner struts (strong enough to hold my 75 kg…)

Thanks for the close-up of the Scarp X-ing poles Franco.

I suppose that in high winds the X-ing pole ends would touch the ground at times. With my internal configuration they would use the strength of the CF corner struts ALL the time.

I've found that when using Velcro slotted end cable ties inside to hold the poles one must sew about 1 cm from the slotted end to get the wrap tight around the X-ing poles. Then, when the other end is inserted into the slot and tightened it will form a tight loop to keep the poles in place W/O letting them move and rub the fly. (Details, details. As Goethe said, God built the universe with details, just as Henry builds his tents.)

UPDATE 8/24/'13-> Today was exceptionally windy with frequent 50 to 65 mph gusts so I set up the modded Scarp 2 with the internal X-ing poles and guyed it out at each side and both ends. There were NO deformations and no flapping during the 3 hour windstorm. I'm now satisfied it will handle most winter storms.

Hi Franco

> It's just the angle on that photo that makes them look like they rest on the ground
> but they are in fact floating in the air.
I see. It was not obvious. Strange design. Couldn't you cut the poles short and socket them at the top of the CF poles? But then, that's what putting them inside involves anyhow.

Cheers

As soon as Henry does that (external additional poles, but terminating at the top of the struts), and specs a PU groundsheet I'll buy one).

(There are some other niggles I have but that would tip the balance enough)

Franco – do you know if there are any plans to implement some of the mods that have become popular eg. threshold cords?

Right now the most useless present for Henry would be a back scratcher but in a few months he will have some time to think about things.

The Scarp was designed to be a convertible 3 to 4 season shelter.
In other words a 3 season shelter that can be used in winter but not particularly focused just on that.
However the design does lend itself to some interesting mods so you never know…