Down shifting in Enlightened Equip quilts?

[USA Duane Hall]

On another bp forum I post to, there is some discussion of the down shifting in Tim's quilts, just by one tossing and turning. They were blaming the type of box used, I know Tim uses a different techinique than other makers. Anyone have this issue who are active movers? I was still looking to get one of his quilts sometime to replace my old WM Caribou bag. I know there have been no negative reviews posted here about the EE quilts. I also wonder if his quilts can have the boxes sewn all the way so the down does not shift, I don't like to mess with things.
Duane

[Mike V]

I have a 30 degree Rev-X with 30% overfill. In my experience the Karo baffles do a better job of keeping the down from migrating during use than previous bags I have had that use standard horizontal continuous baffles. The Karo baffles stop the down from migrating off the top to my sides. The down does have a tendency to shift a bit when stuffed/unstuffed, but that takes a very minimal effort to manually shift the down around by hand to where it belongs.

[Steve Meier]

I posted some questions here about 7 weeks ago on the same thing. I found myself on a ridge in the Smokies during a very windy night when the temperature dropped and had to put on every stitch of clothing I had, including my rain gear, to stay warm enough to finally fall asleep. I quickly found out from other EE quilt users that you need to shake the down back to the center of the quilt every night or it will all migrate to the sides, something I didn't realize at the time and paid the price for. In follow ups with Tim he recommends doing the overstuff to mitigate how much down migrates to the ends. It still will, just not as quickly.

[Ryan Smith]

Yep, I found the same with my MYOG Karo quilt. Every couple nights just pat the down back to center. An overfill or smaller boxes would solve this, but it's not a big nuisance for me.

Ryan

[USA Duane Hall]

Well at least one guy had mentioned that he shouldn't have to pay for overfill just to stop the migration, but Tim has a great price on overfill. No deal killer, I maybe should get the 30 with overfill to compensate me getting older. :) On the other hand, if I get a quilt, for the price, I want to save more than just a couple oz. as my WM Caribou bag when dry weights 1.5 lbs. By the time I add in a wide, overfill, I'm getting the weight back up a tad. The more windproof/resistant material he offers seems a lighter option in the Rev.
Duane

[Ryan Smith]

"Well at least one guy had mentioned that he shouldn't have to pay for overfill just to stop the migration"

Well, that is a valid point.

Ryan

[Aaron Sorensen]

I made a 14/6 Karo without overstuffing it and it did shift a lot.
It needs the overfill. It is a puffy square that will not work with the same amount of down in a 5-6" horizontal baffled bag.

On the flip side, with the over stuff, it closes the gaps on the baffles making it a little warmer than a comparably filled horizontal baffled bag.

You take the goo with the bad. But it’s a very good good…

[Mike H]

I had this problem and Tim was able to solve it by adding some down. As far as I remember, he mentioned the previous baffle design had some issues with the higher temperature spec'd quilts (ie less down). I'm guessing he has since fixed this. I would highly recommend contacting him if you are experiencing this problem, otherwise I'd be confident in the new design. You really can't beat the quality/weight/price factors of his quilts.

Make no mistake, if you use an open baffle quilt, you should always spend 30 seconds shaking and moving the down back to the middle as it tends to shuffle when stuffing. Just make sure you do this BEFORE going to sleep…cause it really sucks to do this at night!!!

[Tim Marshall]

New baffles Jan1 with less gaps.

Anything over 30* seems fine with no overstuff but the 30 and 40 benefit very much from it.

Trying to have one baffle size for all lofts is tough and the only way to do it right is make the baffle smaller. We're not making all the boxes smaller but are making the walls bigger to reduce the size of the gap from 8" to 5". It's like the difference between an 8" or 5" continuous baffle. At 20-0* they work the same but at 40* the 8" allows too much shift. In our quilts it seems not everyone experiences migration the same so I assume sleeping style is somewhat part of the equation.

If you are having issues contact me and we can stick a little more down in there for you.

All quilts benefit from shaking down to the center though so dont every expect to never move the down before bed on any thing rated 30* or warmer.

-Tim

[USA Duane Hall]

Thank you Tim. I sold one of my motorcycles last night, so I'm flusher. Just gotta turn loose of the dough. Not much weight savings to upgrade by the time I get a wide and add overfill.:( I can sell my WM bag to get some money back, off to the washing machine.
Duane

[Jerry Adams]

"Trying to have one baffle size for all lofts is tough"

It seems like you want the baffle width to be twice the loft, or something like that

If you have a 2 inch loft, you want 4 inch baffles

Or maybe a factor of 3 or some other?

[Tim Marshall]

Every differant baffle size requires a new template. You could imagine all the templates with 3 lengths and 3 widths and 5 temps. The changes I've made for 2013 should make a big difference and require less fuss. Ill keep using my 2012 40* for awhile though since it doesn't shift on me.

-Tim

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

I have used Tim's quilts a pretty fair amount, and I always move it back to center before and it minimizes the issue. I regularly use them in temps in the 20's and lower. I suspect this happens more to side sleepers and those that move around a bunch.

[Jason Elsworth]

I purchased two of Tim's quilts about a year ago. Both are 40 degree wides, half taper, overstuffed. When they arrived I could see that the down had shifted, especially out of the central main torso area, which had limited down left in it. I contacted Tim about this and he explained that I just needed to shake it out a bit.

I haven't been able to use the quilts much (it's been a tough year). Overall I haven't found that the Karo baffles do a great job of keeping the down in place. You can move it around, but you have a lot of variables in order to get an even distribution, as each baffle can move down to or move down in from lots of other baffles. This is OK to do at home, but doing it in a tent or when you are in the quilt isn't easy.

I would like to see the baffles made smaller and the gaps made smaller. I also am not sure if being able to move the down from top to bottom is all that useful and just makes getting even distribution more difficult.

I will be using this quilt more for summer use (not for temps down to 30F), as it opens out to a full blanket. I have now got another quilt for going down to 30F and below with additional clothing.

Tim's quilts are very well made and excellent value.

[Jerry Adams]

With a Karo baffle, can't the down migrate all over the quilt?

It seems like it would be better to have conventional isolated tubes so all you have to worry about is getting the down distributed in each tube.

With Karo, the down could move more towards the head or foot end and would be difficult to get back where it's supposed to be evenly.

I must be missing something

[Mary D]

The down shifts enough in my WM Ultralite that I have to check it daily. While the idea of shifting the majority of the down to the top side of the bag is fine for those who stay in one place all night, it sure doesn't work for this restless sleeper who turns from one side to the other every hour or two. That's why I'm sending the bag in for overfill right after Christmas.

The problem is that some folks really want to be able to shift the down, while some don't. The manufacturer has to try to satisfy both. For those of us who don't want to move the down, there's overfill. The bonus is a warmer bag/quilt for only an ounce or two more weight.

I made a similar post on the "other" forum. It may not satisfy critics, but at least it explains the situation.

[Anonymous]

"That's why I'm sending the bag in for overfill right after Christmas."

Hi Mary,

I just want to verify: Will WM take a used WM bag and add overfill to it? If so, that is great news for me.

[Stuart .]

Yes, however you will need to send the bag to WM freshly cleaned or they won't accept it. I believe you can contact WM directly rather than having to go through a dealer. Prices seem pretty reasonable – if my Kodiak's not warm enough this winter I'll send it in instead of taking a bath on selling and buying a Lynx.

[Mary D]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/55520/index.html

I haven't called WM yet–waiting until after Christmas.

[Anonymous]

"http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/55520/index.html"

Thanks, Mary. That pretty much confirms it. Yahooooo!

[Duane Hall]

There is a disappointing amount of down shift in my Sierra Sniveller (Jacks R Better) as well. What is irritating to me is the way manufacturers often tout this as a design feature. This might make some sense in a sleeping bag, but surely not in a quilt. A really cool, or should I say warm design feature in a quilt, would be down that stayed where it was put in the first place.

[Stephen M]

My home quilt has Karo baffles and they drive me nuts as the down keeps moving leaving baffles either full or half empty.

I tried moving the down and I ripped one of the baffles.

I had a WM Ultralite that suffered the same issues as Mary mentions.

[Raymond Estrella]

“There is a disappointing amount of down shift in my Sierra Sniveller (Jacks R Better) as well. What is irritating to me is the way manufacturers often tout this as a design feature.”

It is in a way. With a quilt made for “normal” 3-season hiking you may be using it on a wide range of temps. In warmer temps I tend to leave the quilt loose and spread wide. As it gets colder I pull the quilt in around my body. If it gets really cold, as in below the rated temp of the quilt, that is when I will shake the down to the center so there is more loft on top, and then actually close the top edge and pull the sides under me like a sleeping bag would fit. I don’t need the down that was on the sides now (there will still be down, just not as much).

[Sergiy Sosnytskiy]

Oh my…
I spent so much time before deciding that I need a 20F wide. And I thought that all there was left to decide was Rev versus Rev X. But now it seems like I should also think about overstuffing… Maybe I need an overstuffed 30 instead of a normal 20? Or, keeping it on the safe side, an overstuffed 20?
Oh my… Why being a restless sleeper gives you no rest even during daytime?..

[Mark Rash]

I just got a 20 degree quilt with 30% overstuff. I dont have enough time in it to add any information to this other than to say its fairly easy to see the down distribution by laying the quilt flat. The squares formed by the baffles puff up and you can judge if they look even or not. Granted, you couldn't do this in the rain.

I have also have a JRB Sierra Sniveller that the down shifts quite a bit.

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