Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model

[Stephanie Jordan]

Companion forum thread to:

Just Say No To Wicking: Non-Traditional Base Layers Based on a Next-to-Skin Fishnet Model

[BlackHatGuy]

"Surprised it took so long to come to the attention of this site."

It didn't. Someone mentioned them last year, if I recall correctly. At least that's when I think I bought some after reading about them on BPL. They work great, I really like them when winter backpacking. Like Mike Martin, I also bought mine at Reliable Racing.

[Sam Farrington]

It doesn't have to be fishnet to work. Quite some years ago, very loosely woven mesh polos and T's were common, and they worked as well, perhaps even better, than the fishnet. And looked much better, coming in different colors and tailoring.
Unfortunately, a lot of them were cotton or cotton-polyester, and while much more effective under an outer layer than plain woven cotton, wore out quickly. Several days of rainy hiking on the AT rotted out the last of my mostly cotton ones.

Then manufacturers made the mesh denser to improve their view of appearance; but this greatly reduced the fishnet factor. An example of this end stage development was the 'mesh' polo from Royal Robbins with the embroidered hiker on the chest.
When PC's came out, spent hours on the web searching for light mesh polos with no luck. What is called mesh now still has some advantages, but is nothing like the loosely woven material of yesteryear.

Can't comment on your science; but what I liked so much about these garments was the comfort and wide temp range. They were airy and cool on hot days; but when the mountain air got cold, just the addition of a windshirt over them warmed me up faster than anything else, and remained very comfortable during exertion. They also provided great comfort and warmth for weight under GTX shells for rainy hiking.

'Fashion trumps function,' was the comment made about the demise of true mesh on this site several years ago. The much denser polyester mesh sold today isn't bad, but doesn't hold a candle to the earlier stuff.

Maybe your article will encourage some product redevelopment. Hope so.

[Jerry Adams]

owfinc.com, questoutfitters.com, and thru-hiker.com sell mesh – you could make something

[Nick Gatel]

In 1969 Colin Fletcher spent two pages extolling the virtues of fishnet underwear in the Complete Walker)pp 199-200). In 1984 (Complete Walker III), he went into more detail on how it works along with comments on other materials like Polypro. Also both editions have some firsthand anecdotal comments about the WWII British connection (as stated earlier).

I have been using a fairly wide mesh shirt since the 80's (REI brand). At one time I had a dozen, but 10 of them wore out over time. I currently have a sleeveless and a short sleeve with a snap 1/4 top. They breath extremely well in desert heat and work well under other layers. Made from 100% polyester. The material is somewhat thicker than most baselayers we see today. Very comfortable under pack straps.

So I guess we can call this a traditional base layer.

Close up of REI mesh shirt.

Super close up of mesh material.

[Joe Clement]

I used a fishnet top in the 70s, but under a long underwear top.

And since no one else will say, I'll sae it – Ike's post is the clear winner in this thread!!

[Michael Cheifetz]

@RJ – many people talk about controlling sweat by changing activity level (among other options like taking off layers etc)….how does that fit with daylight and the time you have to hike a given trail…

I know that for me (and i am by no means super fit or a hiking guru or anything) i need to keep on pushing (especially if its uphill) to make good time to be able to hike longish days…especially since i tend to hike off season (in autumn) when trails are many times timed for peak season sunlight

do you REALLY slow down just in order not to sweat – even though from a fitness perspective you could push on???

Mike

[WV Hiker]

I looked into sourcing the Brynje after the article a few days ago on baselayers. Reliable Racing seems to be the only US distributor but they only carry the synthetic versions not the wool. I did find a Canadian distributor – Chromasport Canada, that apparently has the entire line. Their website is not fully functional but I've read that you can email the contact person and they will happily work with you.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Reliable racing has them on sale but only has small size available.

[Bjørn Grenness]

You can buy Brynje from Norwegian webshops, but its pricy. One example;
http://sportsnett.no/s/i.aspx?aid=74

http://sportsnett.no/s/p.aspx?pid=5039&cid=243
http://sportsnett.no/s/c.aspx?cid=412

[David Olsen]

I did send a polypro top to Vic Hines in 2006 to try. Didn't hear back on how it worked.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=2990

[David Olsen]

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=35

Haven't tried them.

[Daryl and Daryl]

David,

I ordered one from Wiggys. Thanks.

[Gustav Bostrom]

Nice to see that fishnets gets some attention. I've tried many a baselayer, but these are by far the most comfortable I have tried for high activity. My main reason for choosing fishnets both for summer and winter is not saving weight, the total weight is higher. The reason is comfort. I feel so much drier in these clothes. It's worth the extra weight.

In summer I use a nylon shirt on top of a synthetic short sleeve Aclima net (I like to have shirt pockets and it's cooler than a windshirt.). In winter for cross-country skiing I use another layer on top, or if needed due to exertion just the fishnet under a jacket.

[Tim Zen]

"Bennett" liked fishnet too.

[Buck Nelson]

I had fishnet long underwear top and bottoms that I used off and on for years. Good job explaining the pros and cons.

To me fishnet can be a good choice when I expect to be soaked. The set I had was not as comfortable for backpacking because it would chafe under the shoulder straps. I suspect there are more comfortable weaves and materials now. For something like thru-hiking fishnet would not be my choice. I often wear my base layer as my only layer and then conventional is the way to go. I can only imagine how long it would take to hitch into town wearing fishnet long underwear with shorts.

[Mike M]

I got ahold of the Canadian distributor of Aclima and inquired about their wool net pieces- she sent me a price of $117 for the zip neck top and $107 for the crew- I'm assuming that's w/o shipping as well.

Needless to say I'll stick w/ my Merino 1 for the time being :)

[Bradley Thomas]

Excellent and enlightening article. Glad to hear that this technology has been around, and is established or accepted in Europe. A fact that lead me to do some quick googling, the end result of which was the discovery of: http://www.nordiclifeuk.co.uk/

This would appear to be an viable option for us English speaking Yanks. The Super Thermo Shirt LS including shipping to the US comes to £45.00 ($71.64)! I've never ordered from them personally, but my experience with UK retailers/distributors/outfitters in the past has always been excellent. Perhaps if I manage to raise some extra holiday spending money I'll put in for a shirt and pants set. The looks I would receive from my fellow backpackers would be priceless.

[Yuri Pinsker]

Update: for anyone interested, these appear to be available at NordicLife.co.uk with reasonable shipping rates to the U.S.

[Anonymous]

"I can only imagine how long it would take to hitch into town wearing fishnet long underwear with shorts."

I think the bigger concern would be who stopped to pick me up. ;0)

[Daryl and Daryl]

I've used my Wiggys top for a couple days now and have been quite pleased. I used them working in the yard (fishnet+polypro+windbreaker or raincoat) at 40 degrees F with and without heavy rain and also at the gym (with cotton T over them). In all situations I felt warmer than I would have without them.

My large size is made of nylon and weighs 9+ ounces. So the question that remains "is this the best bang for the 9 ounces". In other words would I have felt as warm with 9 ounces of something else (e.g. a second polypro pullover). Don't have the answer to this question…..yet.

[Richard Nisley]

When used as a base layer, there is no difference between fishnet and any of the other common knits relative to your core temperature. The only difference is in the perception of moisture on your skin surface.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Richard

"When used as a base layer, there is no difference between fishnet and any of the other common knits relative to your core temperature."

Not sure how to interpret this statment. Could you elaborate?

Does it refer to the insulating value of the garment? If so, does this assume that the base layer is covered by other clothing. Worn alone it is hard to believe that a garment with mostly holes in it (fishnet) would be as warm as a knitted garment of the same weight.

Thanks,

Daryl

[Richard Nisley]

Daryl,

Yes, all five base layer knits tested had the same breathable layer over them (BDU). They were tested using a wide MET range in cool weather. Although the testers perceived differences in the way they felt, core temperature instrumentation showed 0 difference for the five common base layer knit types (1 by 1 rib, fleece, fishnet, interlock, and double layer rib using polypropylene).

[Daryl and Daryl]

Richard,

Thanks.

Very helpful.

Daryl

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