Patagonia makes dry down

[Serge Giachetti]

http://www.thegearcaster.com/the_gearcaster/2012/10/patagonia-encapsil-water-repellent-down.html

The fact that patagonia invested so much & so quickly to create their own envirnmentally friendly version of downtek suggests to me that the tech actually works. I know we're still waiting to get more user feedback about this stuff, but considering how much heehawing I've seen here about down vs. synthetic, I'm surprised to see so little interest. Quite a game changer if it works.

[Miguel Arboleda]

+1

[James Marco]

I am sure it works. My question is more on the reliability and durability side.
20-30 years can be expected from untreated down.
Will any hydrophilic coating last:
* wear and tear?
* through 60 washings?

[Peter Fokkinga]

What I would like to know is whether these treatments have a positive effect on down when used in humid air.

I am not in the habit of dunking my sleeping bag into a bucket of water, but have experienced situations where the humidity was 95% (according to a cheap electronic gismo I had with me). Another scenario would be using a pullover right after strenuous activity (ie you're still sweating a lot). Bad idea with down? Ok with treated down?

[M B]

all mfgs will sell whatever someone will buy
and they all buy the newest fad

only time will tell if there is any merit
repelling gross amounts of water is one thing
there are many many other factors to consider

[Stephen M]

Serge,

Let us know how you get on with it.

James,

Do you reckon a down garment would get washed 60times in its life?

I think the majority of folk on Bpl would of moved on to another item before any treatment would degrade.

Cheers,

Stephen

[James Marco]

Over the a 20 year life time, as mentioned, I think 60 washings is a low number of necessary washings. Example, sleeping bags: Usually these are washed about once every 15-30 days. I usually get out 60 days a year, which means that I launder mine at least three times per year (usually 4-5 because they also get dirty from trail dust and mud splashes besides just body sweat.) So 60 times per 20 years is probably a low number. Jackets get worn a lot more and are laundered every trip. Because these are worn around town, too, launderings are closer to 8-10 times per year, or about 160-200 times over 20 years. Others are probably not as concerned with dirt and odors so they might launder less, maybe 3 times a year. 60 seems a reasonable number over 20 years.

True, that many on BPL think newer is better. I don't subscribe to this concept. It is sometimes better, but often it is just newer. Good 800 fill down has a LONG lifetime. Unless it is mis-laundered with detergents, too much soap, or otherwise physically damaged, it will last a LONG time; 20 years is around the MINIMUM I would expect such items to last. So, I look at stitching (synthetic vs cotton,)zippers (plastic, waterproof metal, stainless steel, brass or bronze,) seams (rolled vs overlocked vs single stitched vs double stitched) and other things like the amount of down (loft, weight) vs temperature. Down garments and sleeping bags should be considered as a durable good, unlike synthetics that can mat loosing insulation over time. I will pay in extra ounces for good shells, good zippers, and good design knowing it will be around for a long time. I will use it till something happens, forcing a new one to be purchased. Hence, I buy the best I can…it makes sense to me.

[Diplomatic Mike]

I look after my down gear by never washing it. My oldest sleeping bag must be 30 years old, and it's never been washed. Down plumes are fragile creatures.

[James Marco]

Ha ha:-)
Down can get saurated with body oils causing them do collapse. Dirt can accumulate through dust, sticking to oiled down, contributing to collapse, attracting moisture and retaining it. I feel clean is more than worth the trade off in higher performance with only a 20 year life expectancy. But I don't plan on hiking at 80, but who knows?

[Diplomatic Mike]

Don't get me wrong, i wash gear if it gets dirty.
I always wear clothes in a bag or quilt, so body oils never get near it. Any trail dirt gets brushed off when i return to base, and the bag/quilt gets hung up to air. It's worked for me over many decades, so i don't intend to change. :-)

[Franco Darioli]

I would think that the average user will wash his sleeping bag no more than once every few years.
One of the reasons why most use a liner or clothing is to keep the bag "clean".
There will be many exceptions too and that is why nothing works well for everybody.

[Richard Nisley]

DWRs degrade from abrasion as well as washing; every stuff / un-stuff cycle causes abrasion as does just sleeping in or wearing the item.

[Anonymous]

"considering how much heehawing I've seen here about down vs. synthetic, I'm surprised to see so little interest."

In my case, it's not lack of interest but, rather, a certain wariness about doing beta testing for a new technology. It comes from 2 plus decades of working with os/db software, often test versions. Excedrin headaches numbers 2,050-13,100, and counting, by the time I got out of the business.

"Quite a game changer if it works."

Yes. If.

[Jason Elsworth]

Zpacks are offering Allied Feathers Resist-Down at 800 fill. In a moment of very uncharacteristic impulsiveness I ordered it in my new quilt, which I have just received. Not really sure in hindsight why I did this:). But I now figure even when it wears off I will be left with a decent set up. I am sure that if it is here to stay this technology will improve markedly in the next couple of iterations. I agree with Tom, probably best not to be a beta tester.

[Serge Giachetti]

I just have a hunch that this will be a big deal, beyond just marketing hype. Specifically, for folks who find sythetic a neccessary part of their system now. But admittedly, I am a sucker for new tech.

[Stephen M]

Serge,

Someone has to field test it first :-)

For me I will still carry a lightweight synthetic as like having my main piece in reserve.

Let us know how it goes with it.

[Raymond Estrella]

I don’t think the Allied Feathers Resist-Down is the same thing as the DownTek stuff. This is from their site:

“Allied Resist-Down™ is hydrophobic, engineered to keep your customers warm and dry for hours longer than untreated down. And if it does get wet, it dries up to three times faster than untreated down. All while retaining over 30% more loft than untreated down when exposed to moisture”

The stuff I looked at the OR Show was truly waterproof.

[Mary D]

Considering the investment I already have in down (WM Ultralite sleeping bag, bought 6 years ago for $325, now costs $405; Montbell Ex Light jacket, bought 2 years ago for $180, now $200; a pair of Goose Feet), I'm not about to run out and buy this new stuff, interesting as it sounds.

If dry down passes the test of time and I am still actively backpacking several years from now (when I will be 80), I may consider a dry down replacement for the jacket, but probably not for the sleeping bag.

[Stephan Doyle]

The article mentioned 1000FP down. The same treatment will increase its loft.

I can see it now: $300 Patagonia Limited Edition Down Sweater with 1000FP, water-resistant down.

Patagonia, I like to think, isn't one to follow trends. The move here is for either mindshare (customers thinking it works, and as such NOT having this technology would be a significant disadvantage), or because they're really convinced the stuff works. I, too, hope it's the latter.

[Sam Farrington]

Tenty to thirty years from down?
Wow, I'd like to have that in cash $.
On the second year with the well-reviewed MontBell spiral, and it's starting to fade already. Wouldn't dream of putting it through a washer.
The very best of the down bags were saved as couch comforters for those 20 below days on the living room couch (Snow Lion). The rest? Long since gone into the landfill.

[James Marco]

Samuel, you don't wash your down?
Wow, I have always treated down like regular clothing. Even if I always wear long johns & socks in a bag, oils still build up. 'Corse, mild soap, not detergent and ususally 1/4-1/2 the ammount the manufacturer recommends.

My Super Stretch UL down hugger is still going nearly new after 6-7 years. Even my 40F degree bag, about 11 years old or so, is in excelent condition after about 40 or so washings, though the hood has some stains and there is one patch on it. I typically head out for about 30 nights per year before I retired. The past three years has been closer to 60 or more nights.

Don't send them to the land fill. Send them to me!!!

Seriously, the only problem I have with down is when it gets dirty or wet. Wet is avoidable. Dirt/oil can be laundered out. Down has been known to last longer than 30 years with fairly intermitant use, such as 30-40 nights a year. It's just dam expensive to buy, initially. It should last at least 15 years of fairly constant use, say 180 nights per year. They used to be quite painfull to wash, often about a half a day or more at the laundromat (rinsing, washing, rinsing, rinsing.) Nowdays, with no agitators in my home machine, it goes pretty easy.

[Roger Caffin]

> Twenty to thirty years from down?
Of course. But the down will need washing with the right Sports Wash.

Hum – my (Oz) Mont Telemark bag (which my grand-daughter just took to the snow on a school trip for a few days) probably dates from about … 1985 I think. It's still very warm. It's been washed a few times of course.

Actually, I think my grand-daughter said she was the only one on the trip who was warm at night. The others apparently all had Walmart-class bags…

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ray

Beware Weasel Words!

> if it does get wet, it dries up to three times faster than untreated down.
From a legal perspective, drying at any speed less than 3x meets this claim. Even drying at 1/2 the speed meets this claim. It has zero meaning.

And for the life of me, I am not sure that I can see any reason why it should change the drying speed – except to slow it down.

Could a surface treatment retain 30% more loft? Yes, it could, by restrict the absorption of water into the down fibres, but it would probably double the weight of the down. It's like putting a DWR coating on fabric: the weight goes up significantly.

Can down look waterproof (at a staged demo at the OR show)? Of course it can. Just don't wash all the natural duck oils out of it. Very much like wool: leave a trace of lanolin (natural wool oil) in the fibres and it last far longer.

Yeah, old and cynical, that's me.

Cheers

[Raymond Estrella]

"Yeah, old and cynical, that's me."

Oh trust me, I was being cynical when I posted their description. "when wet has up to 30% more loft than untreated down". Lets see, wet untreated down is a little pile of mush. So the stuff that ZPack is using gets wet and is mush plus 30%. Oh yeah, sign me up. ;-)

I am not talking about Pataginia's version which SOUNDS a lot like the DownTek and DryDown.

[Ken Thompson]

"Yeah, old and cynical, that's me."

+1 ,well maybe not the old part.

We'll wait and see how this down treatment lasts. Never soaked a bag yet.

Here's hoping.

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