light hooded mid-layer + light down vest > than a light hooded down jacket?

This makes sense to me Mike. I was thinking the same as I've been using an MEC T2 lately thats a great addition to the kit (same powerdry as cap4). Its definitely more versatile, although I'm still not sure on how necessary a midlayer is in 3 season conditions. Although it does give you a better range of comfort, its also another layer to juggle when generally a base plus a windshell or rain shell is sufficient when moving. If you bring an extra shirt anyway, than I think it makes a lot of sense b/c then you have the option of using the cap4 as a base with a wind or rain jacket in cold wind or rain, or as a mid for pairing with your vest at camp. I was mainly above treeline on my last trip with snow and below freezing temps for much of the time, and I just brought the T2 with an event shell. This combo worked quite well in most conditions (though EVENT has its limits if you're into running up mountains) and it was much simpler than messing with a base/mid/wind/rain shell. Anyway, still exploring options here, probably with a bias toward simplicity over pure performance.

Having just purchased the new Cap 4 hoody and the Stoic Hadron vest, I'm thinking about how to integrate these layers into my clothing system.

Need to do some experimenting…

Does anyone make an ultraligt hoody, with hand pockets? I really like having a place to warm my fingers, when I'm just sitting around, or even walking. I do like that they make the Cap 4 in black at least, though.

that Stoic looks like a heck of buy for $65!

not aware of nay of the lightweight hoodys that have hand pockets

if volume is an issue (say using a small pack like the Burn, Ion, etc) then a all in one (down jacket) clearly is a better choice, if not… I think there is a case to made w/ a vest & lwt hoody mid-layer

Mike,

With Black Rock not making their down vest, do you know of others in that 3+/- range?

in the 4 oz range- Goosefeetgear can custom make one, lukesultralite also makes one and then there is the WM Flash- I'm the least enamored w/ the WM as it's a V neck w/ no collar- it's also the priciest

it sounds like Black Rock is waiting for some more 7D, but it might be a couple months out

I should email MB to see if they have any plans on reviving the ex-light vest, I should probably email MH to see if they have any plans for a Ghost vest- their hooded jacket is 8 oz, I'd imagine w/ the same 7D and 850 down they could get in the 4.0 oz range pretty easy

The Melanzana Micro Grid Hoody has pockets. I don't know what it ways but my Micro Grid Crew is 7.8oz.

If you wear a down vest as a mid layer, then there's no reason to have pockets, which add weight, complexity, possible failure point. Maybe just a negligible amount though.

I just put my Hadron vest on the scale — 6.1 ounces with the cardboard tags still attached, and the hem drawcord still in place. More than 4 ounces, but for $65.00, I'm not complaining…

For multiple years, my goto solution was either a medium weight base or a tech tee + Patagonia R1 hoody and a down vest and wind shirt. The mix and match gave me a huge range. I love the new Cap 4 hoody. I think it's the first base I have found that I like more than my trusty R.5.

I think the the Cap4 + vest would work well if it was going to be cool to cold the entire trip. The cap4 is very air permeable, so it could be used in conditions that are warmer than you might think, but for me it will be using in late fall, winter, and early spring.

The one place that I would rather have the ultralight insulated jacket rather than warm base + vest is if I am going to be standing around outside socializing with people in the evening. At times like that, having the arms a bit better insulated than a heavy base or light fleece and a shell is nice.

–Mark

Mark- good to hear on the cap 4, I have one on the way :) now I need to bite the bullet on a vest

Mike

the cap4 is too warm when active unless yr moving slowly or its cold IMO … i would still need to take a light base layer

a down jacket/parka is warmer … also as stated the vest doesnt work as well if yr standing around for long, the down in the sleeves do make a difference

it all depends on what you define as shoulder seasons and how fast/hard you move

My melanzana micro grid hoodie weighs 287grams is almost my most favourite clothing item. The thing gets flogged around the house, shops etc and the best bit is how great it is in the field. Very comfortable item with a great drawstring hood and large joey pocket.

It's a great combo when paired with my blackrock vest around camp in the cold with a shell over the top. I haven't hit cold enough weather yet to need any more than my base (RAB meco 120 LS) and a windshell when hiking. The fleece is great to don on when you stop to just retain a little more warmth and if I have a damp back from the pack it dries well. I find this alone in cold weather a huge plus as I've wet out my down jackets before after hitting a hilltop to enjoy the views and using them to keep from freezing in cold winds.

> the cap4 is too warm when active unless yr moving slowly or its cold IMO

I would agree with this… which is why I said late fall, winter, early spring. I general wouldn't be wearing it unless I was expecting most of the day to be blow 45F (if I expected winds), less then 35F if I was expecting windless… and the zipper would be open and the sleeves pushed up a bit. Of course, I run a bit hot, your milage might vary.

well put it this way … i think were looking at this at not the "best" way

a better alternative IMO is to have a very thin base, a lightish fleece vest, and a full puffy jacket … more flexible

a very proven system used by many here

I don't think you can make a blanket statement on what's the "best" system, there are obviously lots of variables that would determine what system is best- temperatures being a biggie; other weather- rain, snow, etc; individual metabolic rates (do you tend to run warm or cool) and the importance of overall weight

what kind of lwt vests are you talking about? the R1 vest is ~ 9 oz

also I was looking at the new Cap 4 and it's out of 3.7 oz Powerdry, the R1 is out of 6.8 oz Powerdry- is that lighter than past iterations of EW Cap4?

> a better alternative IMO is to have a very thin base, a lightish fleece vest, and a full puffy jacket

I think it depends on how much variance there is in activity level. If there are going to be large variance.. from working hard to sitting around, then I think what you are suggesting is a better option, with the very thin base going to a heavier base as the temp drops. IF though, you are more or less constantly moving, and stops are either just afew minutes or you are pretty quickly within your sleeping insulation, a think a moderate base with a puffy vest can be exceptional effective in cool to cold weather.

–Mark

At risk of being the nutty guy that always complains about fleece:

Synthetic vest weighs less than fleece vest and is much warmer

Down vest is lighter and warmer than synthetic

Only time fleece makes sense is when it's real cold, and if when you're exercising, a base layer plus outer layer doesn't keep you warm enough.

I wear base layer plus outer layer down to 20 F. Need to walk briskly, especially starting out. I probably need less insulation than the average person.

well theres fleece and then theres "fleece" ;)

for example a Cap4 style fleece is very different from a 300 wt one … the key with fleece is breathability, wicking and quick drying

as to vests … a synth vest makes much more sense than a down one as you can wear it on the move if needed … the main point about using a vest is to allow ventilation … you dont need ventilation when staying still …

everyone does it differently of course … but everyone i know who tries to hike up a steep hill with cap4 with a say 20 lb load sweats it out in no time … especially if they wear a wind/rain layer as well in incremental weather…

also note very importantly for winter that cap4 or an R1 for that matter takes a lot longer to dry in winter conditions if you soak it out … ive tried using cap4 even in winter as a base layer, soaked it out and shivered even with a puffy on due to the moisture next to the skin …. a very light and thin base layer dies out much faster with body heat … i dont use thicker layers has a "base"

i use my cap 4 for social situations these days … usually i take a very light base, and if needed a light fleece …

my basic rule is to wear as little as possible on the move and add when needed … if yr sweating profusely yr either doing it wrong or yr going very hard indeed =P

"everyone does it differently of course"

+1

"but everyone i know who tries to hike up a steep hill with cap4 with a say 20 lb load sweats it out in no time … especially if they wear a wind/rain layer as well in incremental weather"

That's the thing

When I'm exercising, base layer + jacket, the only problem I have is not sweating

Maybe there will be times when I get cold, so I walk more briskly and in a while I'll not be cold

That people talk about how a mid layer or base layer performs when it gets wet from sweat, makes my point

> . the key with fleece is breathability, wicking and quick drying

+1

> as to vests … a synth vest makes much more sense than a down one as you can wear it on the move if needed …

For years I did use a synthetic vest… but it eventually wore out. I had a Flash Vest so I thought, I will give it a try [there was an interesting article here awhile ago about how the flash actually recovered insulation ability more quickly than a number of sythentic vests] and see if I could put off purchasing a new vest. That was several years ago.

> the main point about using a vest is to allow ventilation … you dont need ventilation when staying still

indeed… this is why I like vests

> everyone i know who tries to hike up a steep hill with cap4 with a say 20 lb load sweats it out in no time

have they tried the new cap4 and minimized wind protection? I find the new cap4 a lot more air permeable, which makes a huge difference for me. cap4 + fully zipper wind shirt it needs to be down right cold, but without a wind shirt I haven't had a problem in cool conditions (~40F or so with the sleeves pushed up a bit a the neck unzipped).

I hear you about the R1… it isn't worn when actively hiking until it's well below freezing.

–Mark

ahhh but mark … what happens when it starts raining ;)

What’s rain? I live in California and spend most of my time in the sierras. :)

On a more serious note, if I am sufficiently active then my base + shell is fine to below freezing, and I tend not to stop for more than a few minutes so the heat from activity stays with me. The vest would stay in the dry bag until I hit camp and under my tarp. When it’s cold enough that I actually need some insulation, rain would snow.

Oh, and the article I mentioned was wet weather performance of down vs synth vests. Not, I don’t have field experience trying to dry a really soggy flash vest… the worst it’s gotten is slightly damp from condensation inside my shell when activity level was pushed a bit high without taking the vest off first.

The exception to this is if I am going someplace like GGG and will be standing around more than moving. In those cases, if I am thinking, I with bring a jacket rather than a vest (if I remember to switch my gear around… which I didn’t last time).

–Mark

my point was actually more wearing cap 4 in the rain under a rain jacket … id would be drowning in sweat when moving at a good clip in no time =P