Sep 3, 2012 at 6:11 am #1293653
I plan a solo-trip along the most rugged part of the Norwegian/Swedish border, north of the arctic circle, in October when the winter sets in. The border follows a mountain-range, and I plan to walk on the Norwegian side, since this is where the mountains are most prominent. The trip includes some glacier-crossings, and a swim in glacial water, to avoid crossing the river below. It is regarded dangerous to cross (plus its on the Swedish side). Only one man has crossed it, and he almost died.
I do not plan to use a Pacraft or similar, and wonder how far from the outlet it is advisable to swim, in order to not get caught by the outflux? The water is approx. 3 km long and 1.1 km wide.
I know the water will be cold! :)Sep 3, 2012 at 6:25 am #1908631
Ken T.BPL Member
That's a pretty long swim in cold, cold water. Can you wade a part of the way or is it all swimming? Sounds like a bad idea in general, even more so solo.
What alternatives are there for crossing the river?Sep 3, 2012 at 6:49 am #1908632
1.1 km = 0.68 miles
Depending on the wind and lake currents, you might actually be swimming longer, or exerting more effort.
That's a long swim in freezing glacial water! I'd say the only way I'd even think about trying it is if I trained for months ahead of time by swimming the same distance at least twice a week in freezing water. (Although I'm not a good swimmer at all.) You could use your sleeping pad strapped to your chest to help, but I wouldn't rely on it in case it gets a leak or comes loose.Sep 3, 2012 at 7:37 am #1908636
Cayenne RedmonkBPL Member
@redmonkLocale: Greater California Ecosystem
You are looking at a 40+ minute swim, probably longer.
Can you walk around the lake ?Sep 3, 2012 at 9:42 am #1908672
Thanks! The swim does not necessarily have to be 1.1 km. I plan to shorten it by swimming around the outlet, as close as possible without being drained into Sweden. :)
I´m aware of the cold and fatigue-dangers. I wonder if its possible to infer a minimum distance from the river that is safe to swim, without getting caught by the flux leading to the river, based on lake-size (aprox 1.1 X 3 km)? I think I could swim pretty close.
The water in Google-maps: http://goo.gl/maps/gzsCx
Its not impossible to walk around the lake. It involves a crevassed glacial crossing, which I might fear even more, solo in October, when snow-bridges are at their weakest, and open crevasses might be covered by new snow. I also want to follow the border to a certain degree.Sep 3, 2012 at 11:11 am #1908695
Cayenne RedmonkBPL Member
@redmonkLocale: Greater California Ecosystem
what about one of the klymit 24 oz light water boats ? pretty light and packs tiny.
or, for swimming the lake, your legs will be dead weight unless you swim like an olympian swimmer. Don't waste the energy kicking. if you could inflate a drybag with air and tuck it between your legs (or rolled up foam pad), it would provide buoyancy and make it much easier to pull yourself along.Sep 3, 2012 at 11:43 am #1908706
There is no way to know how far away from the outlet you have to be. It all depends on the current of the water below the surface which may be faster than at the surface.
Cold water causes your muscels to get very weak very fast. Some people can swim in freezing water for up to about 10 minutes. Most won't be able to swim after 5 minutes or less. The only wzay to know how far you can swim is to actually do it (with a boat nearby to rescue you). Also mote cold water has been known to cause heart attacks in healthy people.
In my opinion this is way to risky. If you cannot do the swim do to the effect on your muscles you could get caught in the current and die. If you don't get caught in the current you you could die from hypothermia before you get to the other side. And even if you make it accross you could have a heart attack and die.
Take a raft!Sep 3, 2012 at 12:08 pm #1908713
Mary DBPL Member
@hikinggrannyLocale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
You can take a pack raft and row or you can take a wet suit and swim. I suspect they will weigh about the same (certainly after the wet suit gets wet!).Sep 3, 2012 at 12:29 pm #1908715
Thanks for all the feedback. I did guess that the thread would revolve around the dangers of swimming in the cold. I was just curious whether anyone had any thoughts on what should be a safe distance, so that I could determine the length of the swim, and then focus on the necessary precautions with regard to the cold. I am aware the dangers of muscle-fatigue that could lead to drowning/hypothermia.
Also any thoughts on how to handle a relatively heavy pack during such a swim would be appreciated? Cameron did mention that legs are dead weight. Maybe the pack could be positioned in such a way that the legs rest afloat in conjunction with the pack, also alleviating frictional drag from the pack?Sep 3, 2012 at 12:34 pm #1908717
Richard LyonBPL Member
@richardglyonLocale: Bridger Mountains
If you are crossing with your gear, it'll have to be a raft. And I doubt a wetsuit would keep you from freezing for as long as you'll be in the water. A drysuit maybe, but I doubt that also. I realize that you are fit but your proposed swim sounds like a suicide mission to me.
RichardSep 3, 2012 at 4:14 pm #1908777
Tom KirchnerBPL Member
@ouzelLocale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
"I was just curious whether anyone had any thoughts on what should be a safe distance, so that I could determine the length of the swim, and then focus on the necessary precautions with regard to the cold."
None of the people who have responded to your post so far have any direct experience with the kind of conditions you describe, as far as I am aware. I would suggest you send a PM to Roman Dial(romandial), who is a true expert on the subject. He will be able to advise you on how to go about this, if anybody can. Also, if he advises you not to attempt this, I would strongly suggest you listen to him very closely and take his advice. Good luck!
TomSep 3, 2012 at 4:17 pm #1908778
Sarah KirkconnellBPL Member
@sarbarLocale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Frankly? My idiot brother swims daily in the bay below his home. It is in the upper part of the Pacific Northwest, in barely sheltered water. Maybe a degree or two warmer than the open ocean give or take, he is near the open water (he lives on an island). Anyhow, it is very, very cold, even in the dead of summer. He has his blood tested often due to his thyroid issues. What they found is due to his swimming, his body has a higher count of red blood cells now. Which is common in athletes who do high endurance. Even with that he freezes quickly in winter. Granted, he doesn't wear a suit, only booties and gloves. My point though is that a over a year later, 2X a day, most days, he still is frozen after every swim. Even with crazy training and better working blood…he still freezes.
Just my 2 cents.Sep 3, 2012 at 4:30 pm #1908780
Jim ColtenBPL Member
I crossed a small lake in Jasper National Park on a leaky air mattress (I was much much younger and invulnerable then). It was not a glacial lake though and I doubt it was 1km wide. I've never been tempted to repeat the experience.
Hey Andy F … do I recognize the scene in your avatar?Sep 4, 2012 at 7:56 am #1908941
Jim: Yes, that's our Lost Lake campsite. (Which reminds me that I have trip photos to share with you!)Sep 4, 2012 at 8:52 am #1908953
As they say for every tricky water crossing:
If in doubt don't do it. Especially if you are out there alone.
Bring a raft or take another route.
You will not survive in really cold water for a long time unless you use special diving gear like dry suits. Which will probably weigh more than a decent packraft.Sep 4, 2012 at 9:03 am #1908957
I think the depth of the lake around the outflux is going to be key. Deep water will be a very slow current even close to the outflux. Shallow water will be moving quite quickly some distance away just to transfer the necessary volume.
But I'm not sure this helps you, as the depth and slope of the bottom of the lake is the big unknownSep 4, 2012 at 9:49 am #1908974
spelt with a tBPL Member
@speltLocale: SW/C PA
I have done open water swims up to 5K in various seasons and in anything less than temperate (~68F and above) water, the body's heat output cannot keep up with the conductive heat loss from the water. There is some wiggle room here if you are a trained swimmer in good condition, like Sarah's brother. It is clear you are not, however, or you would not be thinking of attempting a solo 1K swim in water that is at best in the high 30s Fahrenheit with neither insulation nor flotation. I don't see any point in sugarcoating this: if you attempt this the way you propose–no insulation, flotation, raft, or safety boat–you will die.
I should add that I also scuba dive and that water in the low 40s/high 30s is d*mn cold within ten minutes, and that's with a full 7mm wetsuit, hood, booties, and gloves, with a 3mm shorty layered on top my core. Ten minutes is at minimum a quarter of the time you would be exposed to water in that temperature range.Sep 4, 2012 at 10:41 am #1908985
Ben CBPL Member
I have to agree that this seems like a really bad idea. I am a very experienced swimmer and pretty experienced in flowing water too. I would consider a swim of maybe 200 meters with my pack. But you are talking about a longer swim, in very cold water, that is moving enough to drag you into some bad river flow, it sounds, and you're north of the arctic circle. I just wouldn't consider it. Sounds worse than a Bear Gryls stunt.
That said, if I was going to do it, I would use a big inflatable pad as a raft. It will be a bit of a struggle to efficiently swim with a pack in tow.Sep 4, 2012 at 1:27 pm #1909022
Thanks for many great tips and warnings. I have not said that I will use no insulation, Im not that stupid. But the insulation part I will figure out when I know how long the swim has to be around the outlet. I have great respect for cold water-swimming, up to the point of anxiety, but think its doable with proper amount of insulation and flotation. The ideal is to mostly use stuff I still carry, amongst other things some custom clothing that consist of lightweight foam (which I also wear during e.g. a sleet-storm), in combination with shell-clothing, wet-socks, klymit-Inertia-X-lite (as PFD), maybe NSR-swimming-gloves and tape to seal off everything. I have also been thinking about a regular bathing-ring to sit in, to get more of the body out of the water, while swimming backwards.
I was hoping to swing along the border (600m), but think I have to shorten the distance by "just" swimming around the outlet. Thats why I wonder how far the current could reach into the lake. I have noticed when wading around a shallow outlet to a river, that was way to dangerous to cross, that the current posed no problem to walking, close to the outlet, but swimming might be another matter?
I do kite in the ocean and have been stuck in bittercold water for longer times. With a good wetsuit I know I can keep warm for a relatively long period, contrary to some suggestions above.Sep 4, 2012 at 2:10 pm #1909044
spelt with a tBPL Member
@speltLocale: SW/C PA
If you have a death wish, no one here can stop you. I maintain you have no comprehension of the physics of what you're suggesting, but if you're convinced you can backpaddle a pool floatie over half a mile through near-freezing, moving water with little-to-no purpose-specific insulation while towing a "relatively heavy" pack, I'm not going to interrupt you with silly facts about heat transfer and physiology.Sep 4, 2012 at 4:08 pm #1909071
Thanks for the tough love. I was mainly asking how close to a certain river it is safe to swim current-wise though. Anyways I agree that the way I have formulated myself sounds suicidal, and that even the shortest distance around the outlet would be a tad too long. Im leaning towards wading/swimming the river itself.
I have been swimming flowing melt-water for 10 minutes in my current setup before, and did not freeze when I got to shore, but I have not been swept away with a pack in a current yet. I wonder if anyone has experience with the NRS Propulsion Gloves, or thoughts on their effectiveness in contrast to poles, with regard to keeping the balance, adding propulsion while wading deep and swimming to shore if one gets swept away.Sep 4, 2012 at 8:39 pm #1909163
There is little likelyhood of predicting how far from the outlet you would need to cross. There are too many variables involved, includind wind, current, gear weight, method of transport/floatation devices (which will create drag and increase the effect of wind).
You need to dial your plan in under real world, supported conditions before you attempt this or risk being post humously voted for a Darwin award.Sep 4, 2012 at 9:12 pm #1909172
drowning in spamMember
Klymit inflatable vest should prevent some heat loss and help you float a little better in your swim. I don't think it's a good idea though.
Swimming the river has another set of risks, some rivers more than others.Sep 4, 2012 at 10:56 pm #1909194
Dan DurstonBPL Member
The minimum distance you can swim from the outflow depends on so many factors that it's rather hard to offer any sort of helpful advice without studying the specific lake. River volume, outflow size, lake depth near the outflow etc. are all big factors as I'm sure you know.
If the lake is fairly deep you can often get pretty close, but the lack of certainty + lack of room for error necessitates an ample safety margin. One concern I'd have is that the safe distance might not be constant across the lake. With varying water depths and water body shapes, some areas may have more pull than others.
I'd try to keep your options open. If you arrive at the lake and examine the situation, you may very well find there is a water crossing route that is safe enough and keeps your swim to an acceptable length. Your experience and risk tolerance come into play in evaluating. You might not like the look of the crossing though, so it's prudent to be as prepared as possible for other options like going around the lake and even turning back. If you haven't done your research on routes around the lake and you don't have enough food to turn back, then you may be tempted to attempt a swim that you're not comfortable with.
I would prepare for this by seeing how long (time and distance) you can effectively swim in various water temperatures. If you measure the temp at the lake, you can get a good idea of how your body will hold up if you've already experimented at that temp.
In terms of gear, there's a lot of options ranging from nothing to a full on packraft. In between, you've got aids like inflatable PFDs, sleeping pads, neoprene clothing, wetsuits, pool toys etc. I'd probably take a FlytePacker raft + trekking pole paddle blades.
Swims are usually longer than they look.Sep 5, 2012 at 8:23 am #1909252
Paul WagnerBPL Member
@balzaccomLocale: Wine Country
This is a really good example of the kind of question that should get the following answer:
If you have to ask how far away from outlet you would have to swim to be safe, you shouldn't attempt the swim.
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