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I don’t get UL bivy
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Jun 19, 2012 at 5:03 pm #1888408
Someone said a quilt with a headnet is sufficient for bugs. I disagree. I'm sure ticks and clown beetles have no problem getting under the edge of a quilt, and ticks would have an especially easy time at the drawstring footbox closure and head area. This spring slept in an area very heavily infested with ticks and I was very happy to have my bivy with me.
Jun 19, 2012 at 6:26 pm #1888438I'm mostly with Hobbes.
I have played around with a few setups, as we all have. I don't think any one setup is best for all people all the time in all conditions.
A few observations:
– Many say using a bivy means there's no need for a groundsheet. Perhaps that is true in dry areas. But on damp ground I find that if I don't use a groundsheet, all my stuff gets filthy with moist dirt stuck to it, plus pinesap (cuz I love to sleep amongst the conifers). Just a simple 2mil poly drop cloth under my tarp lets me keep all my stuff clean and dry. Polycryo would be even lighter.
– I don't understand the argument that a bivy "protects from rain spray" and yields weight savings from using a smaller tarp. With the superlight, super-breathable NON-WATERPROOF bivys, if they get wet they leak through, period. The real fix for that is a larger tarp. If the "rain spray" is so mild that Intrepid fabric stops it, then it's not really much of a spray. Early on in tarping when I screwed up, I watched rain spray get on my Ti Goat Raven Omni bivy. The stuff got wet, then soaked through. It is not a magic water barrier.
– I don't buy in to the practice of my shelter setup being a tomb, where all I can do is lay there: no room to cook, change clothes, etc. IMO there is a valid "transition zone" between entering the shelter and actually going to sleep. I prefer to not be in a claustrophobic clusterfark during such times, struggling against an industrial grade faff factor.
For me, my preferred soloist solution is an 8×10 tarp with an inner bug tent (my MLD bug bivy weighs 6 oz) and a thin, disposable groundsheet. In cold weather I skip the bug bivy. I get the fun, openness, and ventilation of tarping. I have good bug and rain protection. I can hang out after a long day (and sleep in after a dreamy night) without feeling entombed. This setup is adaptable, the weight is very reasonable, and the faff factor is low.
Jun 19, 2012 at 8:47 pm #1888489"Ah come on, synthetic fill gets wet too….! Or does it? Maybe you have a special, one of a kind bag made with unobtanium…."
condensation on synth … pfft …
itll dry out with body heat and a hawt nalgene …
Jun 19, 2012 at 9:34 pm #1888499Nalgene? Blasphemy!!!
Jun 19, 2012 at 9:53 pm #1888504Bugs aside, I'd take a full coverage tarp (ie. pyramid) + groundsheet, over a partial coverage tarp (ie. A frame) + bivy. Much nicer in high winds, rain splashing, spindrift snow etc.
Come bug season, I'd replace the groundsheet with an inner net tent rather than a bivy for a lot more space and a little more weight. For example, the MLD Bug Bivy is 6oz and the MLD SoloInner or Serenity Shelter (both much larger) are 8.5oz. 2.5oz well spent unless you're hiking right until bedtime.
Jun 19, 2012 at 11:27 pm #1888530"itll dry out with body heat and a hawt nalgene …"
C'mon, Eric! I understand typing short-cuts for some words, but the word "hot" is shorter than the word "hawt"! At least try! ; )
Jun 19, 2012 at 11:50 pm #1888535Hawt must include the Canadian accent?
At least he isn't throwing around a lot of those redundant and heavy "U"s like Caffin :)
Jun 20, 2012 at 8:56 am #1888626This has been an excellent review of the sleeping cover issues. I hadn't been able to piece nearly as clear a picture from other threads. I love this forum! So without proper citations to the many fine contributions, here is what I have distilled:
To this point I have thought a heavier bivy is a replacement for a tent in the rain, perhaps folding the ground cover over my head if needed. As it turns out, I have never been rained on when I've had the bivy as my enclosure, so I've never gained any wisdom on this choice. Now, I don't think the bivy is all that great in direct rain, and adds little in better weather. Waterproof and comfy don't go together in a tube. And once I realized there should always be at least the option of suspending a tarp overhead, the whole notion of a bivy starts losing ground, with the exception of tucking a quilt in tidy.
And we musn't forget the Great Leslie's advice that in winter, one Kwakiutl in a blanket froze while two Kwakiutls were warmer. (Sorry to the kids, you'll have to look that up). The option of cuddling up with your mate, BFF, or an unlucky (lucky?)marmot just doesn't happen with two bivvies.
Starting at the bottom, I think a disposable polycro sheet is a good idea to help keep the 'spensive stuff cleaner. Don't yet know if that will feel good directly under the pad (Klymit Inertia X-Lite + 1/8 evazote) or if I will always want the next layer.
Next is the optional bathtub + net. I think that a tub versus a sheet makes a big difference in a downpour. There always seem to be rivulets running through everything in those conditions. Not much downside to a tub, and just throwing down on top of an unpitched tub/net without a tarp works as well. However, I suspect I will be pitching at least the net w/o tarp on account of the skeeters.
Last comes the rain cover and I agree with those that advocate a larger footprint, at least in capability. I'm also warming to the idea of, as JA put it, "the fun, openness, and ventilation of tarping". That to me is new, like the option of sitting on a veranda in the rain. I've always liked the cosyness of an enclosed tent with a suspended candle during the "transition time", but I've also very much liked sleeping in the open. The versatility of a large tarp makes for some interesting ideas, and adaptability to the chosen campsite's unique attributes.
The downside of a tarp I have mentioned before – is that it can be problematic in high winds. I'm thinking about how the fly on my 3-man standalone is well anchored to the three long poles and I want a design that can achieve the same robustness.
So, having settled on a tarp/tent for two that I will make myself, I'm looking at designs. I've begun sewing the karo baffles on the quilts and I'll be ordering material very shortly for the rest of the sleep system. I also have window polycro on its way along with tyvek coveralls as that looked like a fun project thread.
MYOG thread next.
Thanks!
Jun 20, 2012 at 9:43 am #1888644Winter in Joshua Tree, the Utah Canyonlands, or the Oregon Steens.
Wind blows and is cold.
Stand outside and cook? BRRR. Think of all the extra clothes you would have to carry to
stay warm.Floor-less shelters let you lounge in your sleeping bag and dine.
But what about the cold air, and the dust or snow blowing under the edges when you sleep?
You know, filling up the hollows of your nobby closed cell foam.Will a net inner tent help? Some.
A bivy will keep out the drafts and debris at less weight than a full inner tent of
fabric. Keeps you on your pad and misc. gear and clothes close by and out of the weather too.In dry, windy conditions there is no real condensation issue. Cracked thumbs and sore
nostrils are more likely.Jun 20, 2012 at 9:48 am #1888647You could use an inner tent with breathable fabric walls to block the wind, dust, etc. Works in all conditions.
Jun 20, 2012 at 10:04 am #1888654Yes, as I said. Not as light tho. More problematic for dining.
Jun 20, 2012 at 12:17 pm #1888703"Bugs aside, I'd take a full coverage tarp (ie. pyramid) + groundsheet, over a partial coverage tarp (ie. A frame) + bivy. Much nicer in high winds, rain splashing, spindrift snow etc."
An alternative to a full-coverage tarp, aka pyramid, was developed by Ray Jardine (I believe) and is easy to sew (he also sells kits). He calls it a "bat wing," and it's just a small fabric piece that closes the opening at one end of an "A-frame" tarp to block wind and rain. He says he rarely needs to use it as he usually can orient the tarp to avoid wind and rain, but once in a while this is not possible.
It weighs an ounce or two, far less than the extra weight of a pyramid compared to an A-frame tarp. You typically need just one of them to block off the offending end, but one can carry two for extreme conditions. And if there is no wind or rain problem you can leave the tarp ends open and get superior ventilation.
I only had a problem with open-ended tarps once when the wind shifted and it started to drizzle. I had pitched the tarp especially high off some trees, not expecting rain. Since it was our last night I was too lazy to get up and reset the tarp, so my bag got somewhat moist around my shoulders, but I didn't care.
I plan to make a bat-wing for each of my tarps and carry them all the time (I'm terrible about predicting the weather).
Jun 21, 2012 at 12:12 pm #1889008If you have a large enough tarp, and have an external guyout in the proper location, you can avoid the "bat wing" and just stake the tarp to the ground at the foot end, and guyout the middle of the foot end with a pole, to get some clearance for your feet.
There's a photo of this method on this page somewhere:
http://www.hikeabovetheclouds.com/oware-6×8-tarp-setups/Jun 21, 2012 at 12:49 pm #1889019I don't get it either and chose other options.
But…
There are bivvies and there are sleeping bag covers. When I think of a bivy, I think of a tough stand alone shelter that I can simply throw down on the ground (or hang from a rock face) and be protected from wind and precip. Some take a step up and have some poles in the head end, raising the complexity, cost and weight. Even the simple forms are heavier and can be more expensive than a well made tarp or single wall tent. You could juggle apples and oranges all day on bug features. If you want to cook and rest with a bivy open in the rain, then you need to add a small tarp to cover the head end. That doesn't add up for me– If I have to play with poles, strings and stakes, I might as well have a full shelter. I could make a case for a bivy for something like adventure racing or as part of an SAR kit. Wall climbers have no other options really.
When I think of a sleeping bag cover, I think of a simple bag with a waterproof bottom and a water resistant and breathable top. It performs pretty much like a windshirt for your sleeping bag or quilt, providing another layer to protect from light precip and wind. If you want a very minimal tarp or poncho shelter, they give that extra bit of protection. We can do the bug feature dance on this version too.
I don't think the small tarp/bag cover option adds up well for weight or cost. If you are using a poncho for a tarp, then you get some multiple use "credit" from that combination; otherwise, you can add another 12oz or so for a rain jacket. My alternative is to use an SMD Gatewood Cape that provides good coverage all around, I don't feel the need for a sleeping bag cover and I get that multiple use for rain gear credit in an 11oz package.
I do think that a poncho and something like a space blanket bivy make a good day hiking rain and CYA combination. I'm going to carry rain gear anyway and the space blanket bivy will get me through an unplanned night out. I would be using trekking poles anyway and the only extra weights are the space blanket bivy and a few stakes (or I could cut some).
Jun 21, 2012 at 4:35 pm #1889065I would bet that many (if not most) bivy users are those lucky people who can simply lay down and fall asleep. Doesn’t really matter where they are – surroundings be damned they lay down and a minute later they are sound asleep. Kinda like those old Hercules movies where he lays down on the ground with a rock for a pillow and is out like a light until morning.
Unfortunately, I am not that kind of sleeper. For me I need some space to move around while I’m unwinding and finding that elusive sweet spot for the transition to sleep, and the tight confines of a bivy are not very helpful to that process. I wonder if the ability to fall asleep quickly might be one of the factors that separates bivy users from tent users…
Jun 21, 2012 at 5:28 pm #1889084Dave I think you are on to something. Me. I am a sleep champ. Anywhere is good. I've used a bivy. I've used a hammock too. Like a suspended bivy.
Jun 21, 2012 at 7:01 pm #1889100AnonymousInactive"I wonder if the ability to fall asleep quickly might be one of the factors that separates bivy users from tent users…"
That and not having to get up to pee 2-3 times during the night. :{
Jun 22, 2012 at 7:12 am #1889178Seemingly, not much love here for the DWR bivy. I love mine though and rarely go anywhere without it. Enjoyment of backpacking is strongly influenced by personal aesthetic, and a light bivy suits my philosophy perfectly. Admittedly, my camping style falls heavily in the minimalist camp, and I won't try to convince others to go this route, but just wanted to express my thoughts for those considering a more SUL approach.
I'd be hard pressed to find another sleep system that provides complete storm and bug protection with as little fuss as my 4 oz poncho tarp and 5 oz bivy. No stakes, no poles, no additional rain gear, and the ability to throw down anywhere without the need for setup (like a bug shelter) if the weather is nice. In it, I can sleep on my packraft, in the snow, in shelters, places where a net inner couldn't go. Even when I have pitched my poncho, I can slide my bivy out from under it to watch the stars at night while remaining sheltered from bugs. 9 months out of the year, I don't need to bother with the face netting, but can still use the bivy for warmth, draft protection, and constraining the quilt.
The bivy provides structure to my light quilt, allowing it to conform to my body without gaps and without the need for straps. It keeps the quilt from falling or sliding off a groundsheet and getting muddy or wet in the snow when I roll around at night (which I do quite a bit).
Contrary to above criticisms, a lightweight DWR bivy is no more constraining than a sleeping bag (in fact, it is less so due to its wider girth) nor any harder to get out of. I'm an insomniac in normal life and toss and turn quite a bit. The bivy keeps me on my pad and my quilt on me, but I can't say I notice it otherwise as the material is no thicker than the shell of my quilt.
If I was the type of hiker who spent any time holed up in my shelter, maybe I'd feel differently, but in general, I hike till after dark, shelter only to sleep, and am up at daybreak to hike again.
A view from my bivy this weekend. I had packrafted the river at midnight and threw down on top of the raft on a small island in the river when it got too dark to safely navigate.
Bivying in the snow. The light face netting was enough to block hourly flurries.Sorry for the long winded response. Just wanted to share my love for the bivy
Jun 22, 2012 at 10:22 am #1889232Great post.
Makes me all minimalist again. I think I need to keep separate kits for long mile hiking (near instant setup/teardown) and community hiking (cozy bungalow at night).
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