Open Country 2qt pot 7.8oz. (a 15 dollar aluminum pot vs. 60 dollar 7.9oz titanium pot!)

Yes, but I asked:

Roger, which part of the paper “Molecular mechanisms of aluminum neurotoxicity: Update on adverse effects and therapeutic strategies” (Advances in Neurotoxicology, 2021) did you disagree with?

You didn’t answer and Exley wasn’t an author on that paper. I’m very familiar with the Exley / Keele University funding issue, by the way.

Cheers,
Andy

Since you ask: consider the start of the third paragraph:
Being a non-essential element, Al was shown to be toxic for humans (Exley, 2013),

Given Exley’s appalling reputation, trying to quote him as an ‘authority’ seems problematic at the least.

Cheers

Since you’ve decided to focus your entire argument on the reputation of one man, I’ll bite:

When did Exley’s appalling reputation begin?  Because Keele University were extraordinarily proud of his achievements and publishing record in peer-reviewed journals.  Until suddenly they weren’t.  Do you happen to remember when all that changed?

Perhaps the reason he’s still quoted (which would be foolish if someone’s work had been retracted and/or genuinely demolished) is because the part of the scientific community that is interested in how Aluminium works in the biosphere (where as I’ve pointed out) it’s a relative newcomer in terms of bio-availability, sees a great deal of value in his lifetime’s work studying Aluminium.  That’s why it’s safe in academic publishing to quote him in peer-reviewed journals.

I don’t remember anyone having an issue with Exley when he described possible pathways of Aluminium toxicity in fish.  So, when did Exley’s reputation suddenly become sullied?  Do you remember?

Andy

Hi Andy

Sorry, but I do not remember. I am a physicist (PhD), not a medico. I do remember the big fuss at the time, but I did not go into the details. All I remember is that he was exposed as a bit of a fanatic anti-vaxxer, with dodgy funding, and similar to A Wakefield.

Cheers

I remember following it at the time, but I might be a little off (I’d have to do some research).  I think the “reputational issues” and funding source issues (the latter is perhaps a stronger negative case) seemed to really begin around 2016.  The two big funders of Keele University were AstraZeneca (UK/Swiss pharmaceutical giant) and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.  The Gates Foundation set up GAVI in 1999, the Global Vaccine Initiative and AZ were and are heavily involved in vaccines.

Aluminium is an adjuvant in vaccines. Why is Aluminium used as an adjuvant (an immunological agent that increases the antigenic response)?  Because it’s highly inflammatory and causes a profound immune response (which is what you want from an adjuvant).

In 2016 Exley wrote a paper looking into Aluminium adjuvants.  The vaccine industry is a multi-billion dollar business.  Even Keele has admitted that they were pressured to pull Exley’s funding. They did, and he had to go begging-bowl in hand to get external funding.  Now clearly, some of that funding came from parties concerned with vaccine safety (we’ll call them Anti-Vaxxers).  I don’t think Exley ever was an “anti-vaxxer”.  I do think he should have been more savvy in his acceptance of donations (if one is sceptical of industry funded science, one should be of activist funded science too).  The University ultimately shut-down (seemingly under pressure from industry funders) his portal which they originally set-up for him to receive private donations.  The pharmaceutical industry spends a ludicrous amount of money on public relations.  They fund “independent” blogs to launder smear campaigns to destroy the reputations of people who threaten their profits.  It’s a dark and unpleasant side of this business, but it’s real and does happen.

In 2016, Exley’s aluminium adjuvant paper was likely the final straw and the industry went after his funding and reputation. He’s now without funding and is no longer doing research.

But I think the concerns are real and valid. I just went through this paper:
Aluminum in neurological disease – a 36 year multicenter study and couldn’t see any mention or reference to Exley.  He was a major researcher in the field, but far from the only serious voice.

Cheers,
Andy

I suspect that Keele was also under very heavy pressure from the global academic community as a whole. Exley had been judged, and found wanting. His published results were a disgrace.

Cheers

Andrew I

I share your wariness towards Aluminum or Aluminium if you like. Picking up on your mention of its use in vaccines…. thimerisol is a form of mercury that is also often used in vaccines. It is well known that when you combine mercury with aluminum, the aluminum reacts and expands tremendously. On their own, each of these substances is already unhealthy or suspect in the body, but together they become exponentially more dangerous.

Aluminum is very reactive. Making a pasta dish with tomato sauce is a big no no in an aluminum pan – especially if it is not anodized. If you’ve ever placed aluminum foil close on top of some pasta sauce you would see that within hours the reactivity of the aluminum to the acidity of the tomato sauce is such that the foil will precipitate down onto the sauce and you see holes begin to form in the aluminum foil. I’m not going to eat that pasta sauce. Wrapping a potato to bake in a fire is a different story. I have concerns about it but I’m not as worried about it. Maybe I should be.

I remember as kid I would sometimes drink from some cheap aluminum cups. I found water tastes strange from them. I don’t like my lips, tongue, or teeth coming into contact with it. There is a reason that all those aluminum soda and beer cans are lined with a thin layer of plastic. It protects from the reactivity of the aluminum. The plastic lining is also suspect. Bottles are surely better. But when a cold brew is desired on a backpacking trip – it is hard to beat the lightness of aluminum cans over the heavy fragility of glass bottles.

You can absolutely cook things well with titanium. Using it for a pan, it is helpful to season it with a thin coat of olive oil in the oven at 200-300F several times. It is also helpful to keep the pan moving as you cook with it. And yes, I tend to prefer to cook over an open wood fire. It adds a little challenge but it feels more real to me to not rely on fossil fuels whenever possible. And I like being able to use locally available wood.

On the subject of vaccines I will say it is none of my business what someone puts in their body or doesn’t put in their body – unless they’re flying a plane or driving a bus that I’m a passenger in in which case I would expect them to not be intoxicated. Most things in life are a grey area. Believing we should all think the same way and put the same things in our body is a totalitarian philosophy.

To me, a huge part of backpacking is about sovereignty. I mean no harm to anyone, and I won’t tell anyone what they must put in their body or can’t put in their body. That freedom to refuse or agree to put whatever you want in your body ought to be in the bill of rights. It is a two way street. I am not anti-vaccine. I am anti-coercion. I don’t believe in using force unless it is to prevent violence. Refusing to be penetrated is the antithesis of violence.

Thread drift!  I hope that the Staff would move the conversation about health and aluminum over to CHAFF as it doesn’t belong here.  The OP was discussing lightweight and inexpensive options to a 3 cup pot.  If you want to discuss aluminum open a thread in CHAFF and you guys can beat yourselves up over there.  My 2 cents.

We don’t have chaff any longer.

This is a site about backpacking gear, philosophy and technique. Keep it on track, folks. This is a discussion about a cookpot. Keep it on-topic.

If a credible argument can be made regarding the safety of a piece of gear, the forum should be free to express it and not be censored as off topic

I think what you’re saying instead is that you don’t think it’s a credible argument.  Then I think a more constructive approach is to refute it, not silence it.

Personally, I’d like to know if anodizing reduces risk or at least risk for those who believe there’s one, but I’ll do my own research spurred on by this interesting conversation

Since Aluminum was in the thread title and it was about comparing aluminum to titanium cookware it seemed pertinent to bring up exposures to aluminum in other aspects of life and how it interacts with other substances which may add insight to the debate. But if we must confine our conversation of aluminum to only as it relates to its use in cookware then I’ll focus here on the issue of cost vs titanium.

Yes, titanium is usually 2-4 times the price of the same cookware in aluminum. But we’re talking about a difference between $10 vs $40 or $20 vs $80. People spend well into 3 and sometimes 4 figures for dyneema tents or goose down sleeping bags and jackets. A pot and pan in titanium is a relatively small cost that will last as long as any type of backpacking gear. So if you’ve already shelled out for a dyneema pack and tent and 900 goose down quilts and jackets, an extra $100 for a cook kit in titanium seems fairly immaterial.

One person’s trash is another’s treasure. One person’s extravagance is another’s justified quality item. There are so many types of gear to sort through. But once you’ve tried a few different options you can dial it in and find what works for you.

I try to learn from all and respect others freedom to choose what gear may work better for them than for me.

Well said David. I too am interested in what benefit anodizing may have for aluminum. I wonder if it prevents interaction with acidic foods like tomatoes. I have the Firemaple G2 heat exchanger in aluminum and a GSI cookpot in anodized aluminum. I imagine boiling water is the safest way to use aluminum and probably of the least concern. But if you want to do some real cooking then the reactivity of aluminum vs titanium becomes more of a concern to me.

Hi Volker, thanks and I wonder as well.  Years ago I bought the pocket rocket deluxe kit to be able to cook real food for my son on trail to convert him into a backpacker by enticing him belly first.  The pot is anodized which I checked for at the time, just out of additional unfounded caution.

Following a quick search of official Health Canada.  Juicy bits:

“While there has historically been some concern that aluminum exposure is associated with Alzheimer’s disease, the current evidence is conflicting”

“Some aluminum cookware manufactured outside of North America has been found to transfer lead into food.”    Something to ponder when buying low price pots from Aliexpress etc (everyone’s risk tolerance will differ)

“Anodized aluminum cookware conducts heat as well as ordinary aluminum, but has a hard, non-stick surface which makes it scratch-resistant, durable and easy to clean. Anodized aluminum cookware reduces the transfer of aluminum from cookware into foods, particularly acidic foods like tomatoes and rhubarb”

I’ve always felt like raw aluminum is reactive. I’m not sure why, it just feels weird on my fingertips or utensils based on what’s in it. I cannot articulate the exact quality (cognitive bias perhaps) but I do not feel it in titanium or anodized aluminum pots.

Yes, raw aluminium is reactive, but all this means is that it forms an oxide layer quite quickly. When I am making my stoves, I do create a (shiny) raw aluminium surface where the metal was machined. It dulls slightly after a while: an oxide layer forms.

An ‘oxide layer’ is not quite the same thing as an anodised layer: the latter is usually quite a bit thicker. So far I have not tried anodising my stoves: it is wet chemistry and needs practice.

Yes, something as acid as cooking tomatoes can damage an aluminium pot. Given a little time, the acid may break through a plain oxide layer; given enough time, and depending on how the anodising was done, it may even get through an anodising layer. FWIIW, I have noticed that tomatoes can even damage a cast iron pot!

Fortunately, stainless steel is mostly impervious to tomatoes, and so is titanium I believe. The reason both are resistant is that the oxide layer which forms on them is far more tenacious. Yes, Both do have oxide layers. You can also use glass saucepans: they are quite impervious. But SS and glass are both heavy.

I have cooked ‘sun-dried tomatoes’ in my Ti pots. No visible damage from that.

Cheers