Hilleberg Tent thread

[Stuart .]

Keith, over the last couple of years I went through a search for the most versatile 2P Hilleberg shelter. I am lucky enough to live close to a couple of Hilleberg dealers so I could set up various shelters side by side. For tunnels I looked at the Anjan / Nallo / Nammatj / Kaitum. For domes I looked at the Rogen / Allak / Staika / Jannu.

As you read on outdoorgearlab, the tunnels have a better space to weight ratio than the domes. I personally didn’t get on with the Anjan or Nallo 2P variants because the slope of the roof toward the foot end makes it feel much tighter down there and prevents two people from sitting up other than right at the door. Thanks to the equal length poles, the Nammatj has much more usable space (headroom and width), albeit at a weight penalty. If you can handle the extra length of the Kaitum 2, that will give the most usable interior space with a pair of vertical doors. The twin vestibules let you can stash your packs in one end and use the other as a dedicated entrance. If you’re sold on the Anjan, then consider moving up to the Anjan 3. Its 7-8oz weight increase over the 2P offsets a lot of the limitations of the latter, being a foot wider and 2″ taller at the door, and 8″ wider at the foot end.

On to the domes. Forget the Jannu for 2P use unless you like being really cosy. The Staika and Allak doors are almost vertical thanks to the toggle design that connects the inner and outer tents, but the curvature of the head and foot end cut down on usable space. Long sleeping bags invariably get damp at the foot end when using a 2.5 – 3.5″ thick sleeping mattress. The Rogen has bigger vestibules, but the inner tent is the smallest of the three. The doors are much less vertical, and they are slightly concave.

In the end I chose the Allak when I need a freestanding tent, and the Nammatj 3GT for luxury base camp use for 2-3P.

[Michael F]

Hey Stuart. I envy your closeness to Hilleberg retailers. For me, the closest one is a 3 to 4 hour drive and believe it or not, I bought my Tarra without ever seeing a Hilleberg in person. That brings me to my question. Of all the models you listed above, why wasn’t the Tarra one of the ones under consideration? Was it the weight? Cost? Something else?

In part, I’m curious because during my research, I found significantly more information on most other models which led me to wonder why the Tarra gets comparatively so little attention?!?

[Crow]

Stuart – the better interior space of the Nammatj is why I decided to buy and keep the pre-2003 Nallo – it has the same inner tent dinensions and pole lengths as the Nammatj unlike the 2003+ models which mimic the Anjan. A shame for the current Nallo in my opinion.

Hillebergs may weigh more than cheaper tents, but you get a lot of value increase from that. These are truly lightweight tents for the conditions they are designed for.

Despite the weight the Keron remains my favorite and I imagine I’d like the Kaitum too. In 2017 I intend to purchase a Kaitum 4 GT to support base camping with my wife and two kids. For UL use, we all fit comfortably into a Big Agnes Scout UL2 which weighs only 1.5 pounds but it’s quite fragile and less comfortable than the Hilleberg tunnels.

BTW, we’ve been on the road and spent every night except maybe 10 in a Hilleberg since the beginning of June. They still look and function as new, and I only washed each once if at all in that time. The Big Agnes we used maybe a dozen times in the past much more carefully and it already has some minor damages.  So these are all very good durable tents.

[Stuart .]

Casey – The Kaitum 4 / 4GT is going to be an amazing addition to the Hillie lineup. The first Hillie I owned was a Kaitum 3, and I loved that tent for 2 adults or 2 plus a child. My only objection was the way the tent tapered from 75″ at the middle to 60″ at the doors, which wasn’t shown in the dimensions in the Handbook or online at the time. That made it tight for 3 adults and prevented the use of LW pads. I spoke at length with my namesake Stuart at the company, who was responsible for both the Handbook and website design. The following year they incorporated the feedback for all their models, providing their customers with much more usable data to make choices. To their credit, Hilleberg took back my Kaitum 3 and allowed me to exchange it at no cost for a brand new Keron 3.

[Stuart .]

Michael – The Tarra is the only 2P model I haven’t seen in the flesh. Neptune Mountaineering took the decision not to stock that model, and every time I called Bent Gate Mountaineering they were out of stock. The weight was off-putting (I’d say the same of the Staika), but it wasn’t the deciding factor. I found it curious why the Tarra wasn’t redesigned to include vents in the vestibules the way the Saivo was back around 2010 / 2011. Those vents are what sold me on the Keron and Nammatj. In condensation-prone conditions, they make the world of difference, and the zippable mesh inserts mean that in gnarly situations you can close the upwind vent to prevent spindrift, while leaving the downwind vent open.

Last spring I was out in my Allak in a storm that dumped 2′ of wet heavy stuff. The tent did brilliantly given the conditions, but around 2am I woke up feeling I was in a sweatbox. The weight of the snow pushed the vent cover down, sealing the roof vents. I spent much of the rest of the night knocking the snow off the roof and digging out around the doors to restore the ventilation. You could argue the Allak wasn’t really designed with those conditions in mind – it’s sold as more of a kayak touring tent. I believe the mountain tents – the Tarra and the Jannu – come with guylines attached to the vent cover which may help alleviate that problem. Still, I don’t think there any such thing as too many ventilation options, and I would like to have seen the Tarra include vestibule vents to supplement the roof vent.

[Crow]

Freedstanding tents will have less space than a similar tunnel tent, or weigh more. The dimensions will always be more awkward. In a full tunnel like the Keron or Kaitum, all four walls are perfectly vertical, then the arch gracefully brings the two sides over you, the amount of space is incredible. Designs like the Anjan/Nallo/Nammatj sacrifice that space at the foot end, but they still have lots of room. Yeah, the Nammatj shape is a little nicer (to me), but the interior dimensions of the Anjan are still way better than a dome, since your head is still surrounded by 3 vertical walls. In the Anjan/Nallo, the door pole is bigger and the foot pole is smaller compared to the Nammatj, which they say makes it feel roomier. I find the opposite to be true, but not enough to be a dealbreaker either way. After getting used to a sloping foot Hilleberg, coming back to the Keron or Kaitum is remarkable as it is vastly more spacious. We could spend days holed up in there with no complaint about space – and that’s with 4 people in a 3-person tent.

That all said, I just bought an Unna too. :)

[Crow]

Nice observation Stuart – I didn’t realiize the Tarra lacked vestibule vents – curious! The worst thing about the Anjan is the lack of upper ventilation, though it’s only been an issue during very humid conditions, and if it’s not raining the outer can be rolled up on the ends. The Nallo is a lot better in this respect. The other thing I don’t like about the Anjan is the mesh panels on the inner tent and door. There’s no solid panels to zip clozed so water can and does get in through them a bit. Driving rain splashback can come in through the door onto your face, and condensation drips through the foot end (though only very little – mostly it runs down the inside of the outer tent). For such a light tent, this isn’t a big deal, but I value Hillebergs for the superior experience that only the black and red label tents seem to deliver.

IMHO, while black labels are great, red labels are a really good balance. The Nallo gives us significant weight and bulk reduction compared to the Keron – the poles are identical to the Keron and I’ll probably switch the 3mm cordage and line locks to 2mm and replace zipper pulls to cut weight a little more – and it fixes all the shortcomings that I didn’t like about the Anjan. Plus it’s a free bonus that I can use it in snow (since I feel strongly that the 4-season design aspects really help in humid summer use). I’ll still prefer the Keron in winter and frankly would not trust the Nallo in too much bad weather unless doubling the poles (I felt perfectly confident in the Keron when we got 30″ of snow dumped on us), but the Nallo is a great “all-around” tent while the Keron feels overly luxurious in most conditions.

[Michael F]

Stuart – Thanks so much for the insight. A bit of background. Back in the mid-80s as a Boy Scout, The North Face (TNF) gear was all the rage. If you could afford it (which my parents couldn’t), you had some of the best gear out there. Move forward about 7 years and I was a college student living in England. I happened upon an outdoor retailer in a nearby town who stocked a full line of TNF gear…some of which was unique to the European market, so I loaded up. I bought a 15 degree Blue Kazoo bag, a Snow Leopard II expedition pack and a Mountain 24 tent. That gear now approaching 25 years old has proved to be rock solid and in the few instances where repairs were needed, TNF has absolutely been golden about honoring their lifetime warranty.

So life has come somewhat full circle, my oldest son is in Boy Scouts and now working on his Eagle Scout and my younger son just joined last month. For my older son, I bought him TNF gear but after 3 years I’ve come to realize that what they mass produce today is nowhere near the quality of my old stuff. So I was at a crossroads, what do I get my younger son…at least in terms of a pack and sleeping bag? I decided that I’d give him my old gear and I’d use the opportunity to get myself some new stuff. Over the last couple of months I invested in an Arcteryx Altra pack, Western Mountaineering Badger bag and a Hilleberg tent. I’ve bought all the stuff from Moosejaw and they’ve been top notch to deal with.

Specific to the tent, the Tarra and Mountain 24 are extremely similar (both 4-pole, modified tunnel/geodesic designs) which is one reason I honed in on it. My chief complaint with my old M24 is that it had absolutely horrible ventilation making it a sweat lodge in the summer but also causing a lot ice crystallization inside the tent in the winter. With it’s roof vent the Tarra promises to help alleviate that problem but I’m in complete agreement – Hilleberg should alter the design to include vents in the vestibules. However, the Tarra seemed to fix other smaller issues like having poles that are all the same length which makes setting it up in the dark easier. Or, that the inner and outer tent are connected so setting it up is a one step procedure. I think the vestibules are also a little larger in the Tarra.

So I’ve had my Tarra for about a week now and set it up yesterday in the yard for a second time becoming more proficient at the set up and take down procedure. For the first time I put my Thermarest NeoAir mattress in there and realized it fits albeit barely and laying down in the tent the door walls are at a steeper angle and my M24. At about 5’9″ I’m not tall but the tent does feel smaller than my old one. Looking at the specs the old M24 inner tent, it’s 225cm long x 138cm wide where as the Tarra is 210cm long by 126cm wide. So it turns out the extra 6″ of length and width seem to make a huge difference in terms of feel. Now I’m a bit worried that with my pad and/or bag touching the front and back walls they may wick moisture.

All-in-all I’m not as happy as I thought I’d be. At 9lbs 8ozs the Tarra slightly heavier and bulkier that the M24 at 8lbs 0ozs but of course I knew that going in. The Saivo would definitely alleviate the space concerns but at nearly 12lbs, it’s just far too heavy for one person to backpack with.

Anyway, the big trip comes at the end of December when I’ll be up on the US and Canadian border in Minnesota cross country skiing and snowshoeing for a week. We’ll be camping on frozen lakes, doing a little ice fishing, some serious low temp cooking and potentially a bit of dog sledding. I love cold weather camping so I’m eager to see how all the new gear works out.

[Stuart .]

Hi Michael, I’m back in the UK right now for a couple of weeks, and I’ve been exposed to some very different weather conditions than I’m used to in Colorado. I’m reminded how much humidity there is, and in just a few days here I’ve encountered more rain than I have all year. And that’s why ventilation has been on my mind.

My first tent, bought in the early 90s, was a four season model from a long defunct British company called Phoenix, the Phusion Extreme. It weighed in at over 4.5kg / 10lbs, which at the time seemed ‘normal’. It was pretty much bombproof, but it was a nightmare to set up in cold weather. The pole tips wouldn’t fit into the fabric pockets without a major fight. No way it could be done wearing gloves. I remember being in Utah in early November ’96, I fought that tent for 45 minutes in temps that were down in the teens, and I almost gave up. That was the last straw, and the tent was retired after that trip. That’s one of the things I truly appreciate about the Hillebergs – at the end of a hard day in adverse conditions, I always know I’ll be able to pitch the tent in a few minutes, keeping my gloves on. The pole cups are brilliantly simple.

I’ve had this discussion with a few folks, and many Hilleberg model dimensions are designed on the assumption you are using 72″x20″ pads. Long / Wide pads do change the equation, and that’s something I’d like to see Hilleberg acknowledge. The published inner tent dimensions also don’t give the full picture – sure, you can see headroom and floor space, but the numbers can be misleading. For example, the Jannu seems to be one of the longest at 92″, but its wind-shedding design means that the foot end wall is a much shallower angle than any of the other models, so not all of that length is usable.

The Tarra is far stronger than my Allak and it’s intended for use in much worse conditions. The review on outdoorgearlab explains perfectly where it shines. If you are in any doubt about the usable space inside the inner tent, then a Keron 3 or a Kaitum 2/3 are the other options open to you – but as discussed in earlier posts on this thread, the tunnel design has its own trade-offs. Your December trip sounds great. Let us know how it goes!

 

[Andy Berner]

When carrying these Hilleberg tents, what pack are you guys using?  I feel these fill my pack up quickly(HMG Porter 4400).  I picked up an unna again for this winter and am sadden by how little space is left after putting in my winter sleep system.  I know having XL clothing and 6’6″ sleeping bags/quilts doesn’t help…

I have a sled but don’t always want to use that…

 

[Stuart .]

Andy – My Enan fits in the side pocket of my MLD Prophet ;-) My Soulo fits in a 60 litre pack, although I skipped the ULA Circuit and went to the Catalyst. That pack also gave me enough space with the Allak and before that the Nammatj 2. However the Catalyst was a fail when I had a Keron 3. I’ve since switched to a Nammatj 3GT and a McHale LBP 38. That being said, the Nammatj 3GT will see most use with my pulk.

[Tipi Walter]

I always strap my Hilleberg tent on the outside of my pack—plus it’s often wet from rain when it’s packed.  Or frozen solid with encrusted ice.

HILLEBERG ALERT—I’m wondering if these tents have lost some quality in the last couple years???  I’ve noticed alot of interweb chatter on failed zippers, quick UV degradation and poorly coated urethane floors allowing easy water leaks.  See especially—

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/120216-Hilleberg-tent-is-a-pool-seamgrip-failed

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/camping-equipment-and-all-clothing/hilleberg-staika-800-tent-leaks-60429

Regarding zippers—

http://earth-roamers.blogspot.com/2015/04/redesigning-hilleberg-inner-tent.html

http://www.woollypigs.com/2013/05/review-when-hilleberg-zippers-fail-and-fail-again/

The point of this is not to bash Hilleberg as I own several and use the Keron as my go-to solo backpacking tent which I certainly love.  The point is to discuss where Hilleberg is headed, their solution to these problems, and if their quality control has drifted south in the last couple years.

[Crow]

I use a Kelty Serac, and almost always put the tent into the main upper compartment, including the poles though they are kept packed separately. In the winter when my pack is filled with other stuff or on long treks requiring a lot of food, the tent ends up secured to the top of the pack using the lid of the pack to hold it down.  For me even the Keron bulk isn’t that much of a problem; my bulk problems come from carrying all the gear for 2 adults and 2 children (the other adult carries the children). At lowest pack weight, I reckon the tent, bags and pads are about 1/3rd of the weight I carry, but 1/4 and a bit heavier pack is more typical.

The Nallo is definitely more favorable from a weight and bulk perspective but has it’s tradeoffs. I would personally not want to use the Nallo in real winter conditions, since we have the Keron as well and it doesn’t have any compromises. And we’re currently experimenting with an Unna too.

[Michael F]

Andy, I’m using an Arcteryx Altra 75L pack with mine.

Tipi, you might find the Arcteryx Altra a good solution for you if you’re in the market for a new pack. The Altra has a vertical zipper pocket that runs nearly the full length of the pack from top to bottom that’s completely separate from the main compartment and it’s both waterproof and has a water drain hole. It’s ideal for putting wet gear like a tent fly or even a whole tent you want to keep away from everything else. Size-wise, it’s the exact dimensions of my Tarra in its stuff sack.

[Tipi Walter]

Thanks for the Arcteryx suggestion but it’s just too small for my needs.  I’m currently using a 7,000 cu in pack to haul all my gear for long winter trips in the 21 day range.

[Matt Dirksen]

“The point is to discuss where Hilleberg is headed, their solution to these problems, and if their quality control has drifted south in the last couple years.”

Hi Tipi,

I appreciate you raising these QC issues. While I personally don’t need a new tent, if I were to get another tent, I’d certainly be interested in Hilleberg, given their overall track record.  (In full disclosure, It would be to compare them to some of the older generation heavier “classics” which I am still partial to.)

Over the past 30 years, I have watched the average quality of many outdoor equipment companies fall as they got bigger or more sought after, so part of me would suspect that perhaps it’s just time for Hilleberg’s impeccable reputation to take a hit.

But has there been any significant changes in the way they make their tents to warrant any genuine concern?

Often, a company changing where their gear is made seems to affect QC the most, but I don’t suspect that to be the case here.

I will say that Hilleberg seems to be making a lot of different types of tents nowadays compared to years past, so I wonder if that diversification could make it more of a challenge for their employees, from a production standpoint?

Finally, the “cleaning of the zippers” blog post is quite unfortunate, both from a customer service perspective and a workmanship perspective.

 

[Crow]

I’ve looked at the Altra, but my current pack is 115L, and I use every bit of it.

[Crow]

Hilleberg uses YKK zippers so no change there. If YKK’s quality dropped we’d see it all across the industry. I do think they should switch to molded YKK zippers though, as these simply don’t fail for much longer. Hence why the expensive jackets, etc. have switched to them, though you never see them used on tents.  And I’d prefer waterproof zippers on the outer tent – keep the flap cover on at least black label tents just to keep the zipper dry too.  As others have suggested, it’s high time to ditch the metal pulls, and ship the tents with an official cord pull.  The metal buckles may be ideal for durability, but they can cause holes in the tent when packing, so coat them with rubber like Thule does for metal clamp components of their roof racks. And if it’s not black or red label, switch to strong but lighter plastic parts instead.

[Matt Dirksen]

” As others have suggested, it’s high time to ditch the metal pulls, and ship the tents with an official cord pull.”

+1 to that. One of my favorite tent companies (Moss) offered a zipper cord kit for their tents back in the 90’s before they were consumed by REI/MSR. Zipper cords are MUCH quieter, more durable, easier with gloves, etc.

I also believe that when pulling a zipper from a cord pull (with the metal pull removed), there is noticeably less perpendicular force applied to the teeth of the zipper. In turn, I believe this reduces stress on the zipper and greatly improves the it’s longevity.

[Michael F]

Just a few observations after my first outing with the Tarra Friday and Saturday night

• I’d forgotten that a year or two ago I’d bought some glow-in-the-dark zipper pulls by MSR from REI that were on my old North Face Mountain 24 tent. This time of year when the days are short, I missed them. This (or something like them) would be a nice touch on these tents.
• My Mountain 24, which is nearly the same 4 pole design as the Tarra, had 4 loops sewn into the inner tent to which you could attach a gear loft. Although the Tarra has a pre-rigged cord in the inner tent, having the four loops was much more versatile.
• Years ago and after a dozen times being rudely awakened by something tripping over my tent guy lines in the middle of the night as they stumbled off to the bathroom, I replaced them with the reflective variety. I’d like to see Hilleberg use reflective or glow in the dark guy lines.

[Crow]

I strongly prefer the non-reflective guylines that Hilleberg provides, and appreciate that their reflective patches on the tent are fairly minimal and easily removed.

What is an interesting thing is that there isn’t a single 2mm or 3mm cord that Hilleberg uses – I have seen at least 3 different weave patterns in the same diameter cord.  Always red and white but some weaves make a more rigid cord and seem stronger.  I guess it’s something they’ve tweaked over time.

[Keith L]

When will Hilleberg’s 2017 models be available? More specifically, when will they be available at places like Moosejaw?

[Stephen M]

Not sure, you should call Hilleberg and ask.

[Stuart .]

Best to call, as Stephen suggests. However from experience when the Enan was introduced for 2015, the first batch weren’t available until the beginning of March. I ordered mine through Bear River Outfitters. It was a month or so later before I saw them listed at Moontrail, who I believe are the biggest volume dealer in the US. Moosejaw took even longer to list the new model.

[Stuart .]

Thought I’d share something that sparked a good discussion on Facebook’s Hilleberg Owners Group. Hilleberg often talk about double poling their tents to make them stronger still. Trouble is, that increases the weight and bulk significantly. I’ve heard of some Red Label tent owners buying a set of 10.25mm poles instead of double-poling with 9mm lengths for the harshest conditions, but for owners of 1P tents, Hilleberg don’t offer 10.25mm pole lengths short enough. My guess is that the 10.25mm poles can’t arc tightly enough for the span of a 1P shelter.

A Soulo owner in Sweden posted the pic below where he double-poles just the shortest span – the one that goes from front to back, and he reports that increases his wind-handling significantly without the added weight of the two extra long spans. I just ordered an extra 285cm x 9mm pole from Hilleberg at a cost of $36, and will give this a whirl this winter.

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