Hilleberg Tent thread

[jimmer ultralight]

Bo Hilleberg, Hilleberg founder ,is quoted as always telling his children "We are not here for the company,it is here for us".. This tells me a lot.

The protected pricing structure ,IMHO is a good one for their particular niche. For dealers of premium priced goods,having your margin being protected from predatory discounting is only fair. If you want cheap,get some other maker's product at 40% off..Hilleberg does not seem to mind.

It's really no different than MLD,TARPENT XPACKS wtc..Their goios are rarely on sale a steep discounts and only are available from limited outlets. The HB pricing structure also prOtects the consumer a bit at resale,knowing they will not have to compete with heavily discounted new stuff flooding the market if they put theirs up for sale.

Things I wish they would change are-

Hillebergs' management might take a good look at real inflation numbers ,the US economy and the Euro vs Dollar exchange rates over the last few years. No much reason for their yearly 10% price increases lately..Pretty insane IMHO.

The final thing I DO find somewhat arrogant about Hilleberg is their resistance to make NEEDED product improvememts. Most of their stuff is well designed, but..

A good example is the RAJD..It is SERIOUSLY flawed from the standpoint of ventilation/condensation. The doors and side awnings should have been redesigned YEARS ago.Apparently bugs and tent condensation are not problems in Sweden?

Since 2006,the RAJD design has been improved on by SMD,Tarptent,ZPacks and probably a few others.You would think Hilleberg could to do the same.

[Ken Thompson]

A sil MLD Solomid XL $220

Inner net insert $150

Avg price of higher end poles $120

Pole extensions so you can pitch with an inverted V $10

Stakes, needs six $20

Totals $520 not including tax and shipping.

Now what about a Hilleberg Atko? Comes all ready to use, stakes and all. Also $520

Look at any tent by Black Diamond , Mountain Hardware, Marmot, for four season use. Hillebergs are not so much if any more expensive than other options.

Charge what the market will bear.

[Stuart Murphy]

The Akto has arguably been usurped by designs like Tarptent's Scarp (though there is a question mark in my mind over quality of workmanship/materials – perhaps to the detriment of performance i.e. with Hilleberg likely significantly better).

I agree with you that for better or worse they seem to get a design and stay with it (I assume it must be a lot of work/expensive to bring a new tent to market).

But they are doing things like introducing new materials/designs eg. via the Anjan and Enan's of this world but are they likely to improve the Akto significantly… I doubt that?

They are also selective with the information they promulgate (eg. why bang on so much about tear strength when tensile strength is likely the more important factor – I cannot find thoat specification anywhere on their website; I doubt any of their tents are stronger than the Soulo even though they are marketed as such — sure Kerlon 1800 may be more durable but I reckon the Soulo (due to its design and comparatively small size) would be the last tent standing (in their line-up) in a big wind (the exception may be their tunnels if the wind is from the perfect direction) … so at the end of the day I treat them with the skepticism of any business). Of course I may be wrong on the aforementioned technical points but even their annual 10% increase (I agree with you — how is that justified other than the market will bear it, so they can get away with it?) reminds me it is a business they are running, not some community service for people who need tents.

[David Ure]

Good comparison Ken. However, only one of those shelters can actually take a snow load and it doesn't start with an H.

[jimmer ultralight]

The MLDs are made in the US ..

Hilleberg tents are made in Estonia.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Stu,

I'd say that Hilleberg and Tarptent are of equal quality. Tarptent may build tents of lighter materials but all their materials and construction are the same quality as Hilleberg's in my own observation of 3 Hilleberg tents and 4 Tarptents.

Hilleberg definitely does design most of its tents for severe weather while Tarptents are lighter, mostly 3 season tents. That difference does not speak to quality of construction, just design.

** NOTE:
In response to the comments below please note my last paragraph above. I acknowledge that Tarptents are lighter and designed for 3 season use while most Hillebergs are designed for severe weather, hence the heavier materials. Like comparing a Honda CRV to a Toyota 4 Runner. Different design and materials for different purposes.

[Ken Thompson]

So

[Stephen M]

Nm

[David Ure]

I too have owned several Tarptents and Hillebergs. It depends on what you define as quality. Is it stitching quality? If so, my Akto had the inner stitched like it was completed by a drunk. Given all Hillebergs have the name of the person who made the tent on them, perhaps I should have called them (just kidding).

Hillebergs use heavier materials, including plastic and metal buckles. Does this provide a higher and more robust level of quality? Maybe. But they are much, much heavier than Tarptents. The latter are intended to be light so the comparison is probably not quite fair.

The prices they now charge are clearly based on a perceived brand value. Is it real? I haven't had a Tarptent or MLD Mid or (name it) fail in the backcountry. Although I used to be a big fan of Hilleberg, they are slowly losing my support. The prices are way out of whack and given the global economic conditions which are about to get quite volatile, I can see a rough year for Hilleberg sales.

(please tell me the new Enan solo 3 season tent is not $625)

Sorry for the thread drift.

[David Ure]

"Any insights on this issue? Nammatj 2 users – does that vestibule feel cramped? Is the 3 person version worth the extra weight (approx 11 oz) for the added space?"

I had a Nammatj 2 and it was big enough inside for two really close friends but no room for gear. The vestibule is sufficient for gear but then you have to crawl over the gear to get out or in (no problem if using for solo). The Nammatj 3 will offer more room inside the main body of the tent to store additional gear but the vestibule is no bigger. I might look at the Nammatj 2 GT with the huge vestibule instead of the Nammatj 3.

Also, have you considered the Katium 2, which has dual entries and dual vestibules? It weighs the same as the Nammatj 2 (has some lighter weigh fabrics).

[Jeff Jeff]

"I'd say that Hilleberg and Tarptent are of equal quality."

Damn, for $800 I would hope not. My rainbow fell apart in just a couple seasons. Even one of the vents was messed up from the factory.

[David Ure]

"My rainbow fell apart in just a couple seasons. Even one of the vents was messed up from the factory."

Did you send it back for a refund?

[Stuart .]

I'll second what Dave said about the Nammatj 2 – interior space is manageable for two, but I had to climb over packs to get in and out. For extended trips this would likely get old. The Nammatj 3 offers considerably more space both inside the inner tent, and also in the vestibule due to additional height and width. Packs plus dog in the vestibule would be much more manageable in the 3. Back on page 16 of this thread I posted some photos comparing the inner tent for the two tents.

Personally, I switched from the Nammatj 2 to the 2GT. I valued the extra bug-free space in the vestibule over additional space in the inner tent. However it does come at a weight premium over the Nammatj 3 (non-GT).

[Jeff Jeff]

The pictures definitely helped. I'll probably end up with the Nammatj 3. The 2 GT is too heavy and it will take longer to shovel out a site. The only things I keep in the vestibule are boots and cooking stuff anyways.

[Stuart .]

I helped a friend make a decision on a 1P shelter recently, and it boiled down to Scarp 1 vs Akto. (Funny, the Tarptent to Hilleberg comparison almost always boils down to these two models.) The crossing poles and dual vestibule / door setup on the Scarp make for a more flexible shelter. In the end he went with the Akto because he doesn't plan to take it out in heavy snow, and more importantly he needed more vestibule space for his dog than the Scarp could offer. Other buyers have different criteria. It's nice to have the choice.

I've owned a couple of Tarptents, the SS2 and the Notch, and I'd say they are built to a different standard than Hillebergs. Different, not necessarily worse. Lighter materials means lighter weight, but less durability and more fiddly to pitch in bad weather. They do very well for what they were designed to do, but I would prefer to ride out a winter storm in my 2 or 3P Hillebergs. I would also expect to have the Hillebergs fully functional, without need for repairs, for the long term. The impression I got with the Tarptents I owned was that they would need replacing after a few seasons' heavy use. If I buy three Scarp 1s in the time that I own one Akto, which was the more economical purchase?

On the quality argument, I've had runs in the inner tents from both Tarptent and MLD, right out of the package. I've also had crooked stitching from both companies. They function fine, but may not be the most aesthetically pleasing. The one product quality issue I had with a Hilleberg was a missing zipper slider in an end vent. I contacted Hilleberg and it was replaced within the week. I was specifically asked whose name was on the tag, so they could address the QC issue with the right employee back at the manufacturing facility. I've written before about how Hilleberg treated me when I had concerns about the usable space in my Kaitum 3. They allowed me to exchange a nearly three year old tent for a new Keron 3 because (in their words) "we stand by our products for a lifetime." I was astonished at their customer service.

"Bo Hilleberg, Hilleberg founder ,is quoted as always telling his children "We are not here for the company,it is here for us".. This tells me a lot." I guess that depends on your interpretation. My wife is a tax accountant and runs her own company. She is currently on her third straight week without a weekend day off, and may not have one till after April 15. A lot of small businesses run this way, but it doesn't mean it's right. I read it that Bo Hilleberg wants his family and employees to have a balance between work, family and outside interests. That's pretty typical in Scandinavian countries.

The annual price increases in N. America are a kick in the wallet, no doubt. However they're also happening in Europe. And the prices over there are eye-watering. However we've seen ~10% price increases year on year from a number of cottage manufacturers and from the bigger outdoor brands. It's just that the base price of Hillebergs is so much higher to start with.

For most folks on BPL, backpacking is a three season hobby. The fourth season is for skiing or snowboarding or hut trips, or perhaps for whinging on forums. They don't need a Hilleberg, and would resent the weight and the price penalties for performance they won't ever use.

[jimmer ultralight]

I actually have been seriously looking at a Hilleberg Rogen as a two person hard use tent for Fall hunts in the Rockies. I have thought about the durabilty vs price issue and I guess it comes down to me seeing,handling and setting up a Rogen before I can be convinced its worth $750.

Then again, several cottage makers are selling UL shelters made of relatively short lived Cuben for $600 to $700 these days…

[Randy Nelson]

"For most folks on BPL, backpacking is a three season hobby. The fourth season is for skiing or snowboarding or hut trips, or perhaps for whinging on forums. They don't need a Hilleberg, and would resent the weight and the price penalties for performance they won't ever use."

Says the guy about to go on his first hut trip. :) (Probably didn't think I'd read the Hilleberg thread!)

Bring one of the Hillbergs along Stuart. I'd like to check one out in the field.

[Stuart .]

Touche, Randy. Oh, and I plan to. Now I've realized that the xc setup Skurka wants me to buy from Neptune would cost me north of $800, it's snowshoes all the way. In spite of the beer quota, I'll have plenty o' space on the pulk to bring a Hillie and the Kodiak. Heck, after the first night my snoring might banish me to the tent anyway…

[r m]

I sold my soulo. Its an awesome tent, but at 6' I didn't like the length, nor the narrowness at each end. I should have went with an Unna.

The Jannu has been getting good use. The raised bathtub floor has probably proven more of a disadvantage than a benefit as I haven't camped in any lakes and its a condensation magnet. The feet end slopes, and is a bit saggy. I've taken to lining the side and foot with with gear to keep the bags drier. As suspected the vestibule is too low angled to shed any snow, but given the packs are there they take the snow loading and it hasn't yet dragged the front of the tent down.
If you use the closer zip side of the vestibule when its snowing you often get a little bit of snow in the inner, but its the easiest one to reach when you're inside and the vestibule is full of gear.
With a prolite and xtherm sitting right next to each other, there's enough space on either side there's enough room to stuff a bit of gear between you and the side walls.

Overall its a great tent, but I'm pondering larger tents for snow trips longer than three days, perhaps a Keron 3 (anyone know how they perform with a big dumping of snow? I'd rather not have to get up at night to clear snow).

[Stephen M]

Nm

[Stuart .]

I just had my first look at a Jannu a couple of weeks ago, and – aside from the weight – I really like the design. I'm surprised that you call it a condensation machine, though. With the inner door open halfway, and the roof vent fully open, you should be getting enough airflow through there to keep the condensation at bay. That being said, two doors always wins for maximum airflow.

I swapped out my Kaitum 3 for a Keron 3 last year. The latter has more usable space inside, even though the Kaitum is wider in the middle. I have yet to use it in a heavy snowfall, but the 10mm poles and stronger flysheet give me added confidence that it'll do well with the occasional tapping of the roof from inside the tent. A dome with crossing poles will give you the maximum strength if you plan to use it as a basecamp, but you're sacrificing interior space or adding weight, or both, over a tunnel.

[NW Hiker]

One of my favorite set-ups…I have a bunch of Hilleberg's, love to use them all seasons but this set-up is becoming my favorite Winter set-up. Took a Altai UL, had Rainy Pass install a stove-port, and use my Kifaru stove. Zero condensation, tons of room, not ultralight but easy to pull around in the ski pulk and the kids love it.

[Stephen M]

Nm

[Stephen M]

Nm

[Doug Smith]

" I doubt any of their tents are stronger than the Soulo even though they are marketed as such — sure Kerlon 1800 may be more durable but I reckon the Soulo (due to its design and comparatively small size) would be the last tent standing (in their line-up) in a big wind (the exception may be their tunnels if the wind is from the perfect direction) "

Stuart M, Having briefly owned both the Soulo and the Saivo, as well as Saitaris, Nammatj's, etc., I can tell you the Tarra or the Saivo would be the last Hillebergs standing. No doubt in my mind. The Saitaris has beefy materials, and the dome is bomb-proof, but the tunnel portion is the weak link (it really isn't weak, I'm just saying comparatively). What the Tarra and Saivo have going for them are not only are the materials stronger than the Soulo, but they have way more pole crossing points. The Tarra has 5 and the Saivo has 7!…vs three which are all very close together on the Soulo. I'll give you that the Soulo is small, but it has a fairly tall profile for the scale of the tent compared to the Tarra and Saivo.

My money would be on the Saivo if you were to make a competition of which Hillebergs would last the longest in heavy snows or strong winds. Until you've set up or been inside a Saivo in person, it's difficult to describe. They really rewrote the book on "bombproof" with that tent. And it's profile is just perfect for harsh conditions. All of this has a drawback of course, the Saivo is not roomy for a 3 person tent. The lighter and "smaller" Tarra has more living-space inside (headroom) and larger vestibules. As a side note, the Saivo probably has the best ventilation of any Black label Hilleberg. It has two huge roof vents, as well as two door vents. The Saitaris has the same four vents, but for a larger tent with more capacity. The Saivo is simply a gorgeous and phenomenal tent. I just really wish I had a need for one, but I don't.

PS- I happened to write this, the 400th post. I have reached a new level of badassedness. Hahaha

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