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Should I upgrade sleeping pad before buying a quilt?

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PostedApr 29, 2012 at 7:35 am

End of semester I am looking to reward myself with a gear purchase! It wasn't so long ago I was looking at a kelty red cloud 90, but, bad back + this website have changed my outlook.

Anyways, is it worth it to buy a quilt when my sleeping pad is still in dyer need of an upgrade? I have never used a quilt but it seems like its performance is greatly dependent on the insulation of your sleeping pad.

So bottom line, am I better off investing my money in a new sleeping pad and using my heavier sleeping bag for now?

Thanks!

PostedApr 29, 2012 at 9:49 am

right now I just have a basic 1" thermarest. I noticed the other discussion thread indicating NeoAir + Quilt can get chilly. I'll be in Michigan where summer temps my drop to 30-40 degrees.

I am thinking I should focus on a different upgrade before trying a quilt…

PostedApr 29, 2012 at 10:08 am

You could get a Z-lite or ridgerest. Cheap and insulate pretty well without having any dangers or deflation.

Roger Caffin BPL Member
PostedApr 29, 2012 at 3:21 pm

Looking first at your airmat might be very wise.

The Therm-a-Rest is good, but maybe not good enough for 30 F. We do have a survey of airmats with their R-values and how they perform. It might be worth subscribing and reading that survey first:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/airmat_sotmr_part1_2011
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/airmat_sotmr_part2_2011

You could also considering adding a 1/4" closed-cell foam mat over the top of your current airmat. This is a very cheap option.

Cheers

PostedApr 29, 2012 at 4:12 pm

Being that you are in Michigan, you will probably require an air pad with a higher R-Value, unlike me here in the Southeast that can get away with using an original NeoAir (R-Value 2.5) just fine down into the mid to low 20's (F). If it gets any colder I can simply layer a Gossamer Gear 1/8" ThinLight pad on TOP of the NeoAir and survive anything around here.

I would suggest for you, going with something with an R-Value of around 4 – 5 if you plan to use this one pad year round. This should be fine for your warmer months on it's own, and then as I mentioned, you can layer a ccf pad on top to boost the warmth (and even the comfort IMO).

It is important, especially so in the cold, to have adequate insulation, both on top of you as well as below you. So, if your top bag does fine for now, but your bottom is a little lacking, you should replace the bottom first. But, if the bottom is just slightly cold, by getting a ccf pad to add to it can be a cheaper alternative to replacing the whole pad. Something to think about…

As far as your statement about someone getting cool with a NeoAir and a quilt, well that is a vague statement and not one that can necessarily be relied on out of context. Given the appropriately insulated top quilt with an appropriately insulated bottom pad, one can stay snug as a bug.

However, a few other things to think about that affect staying warm on a cold night… make sure that you have eaten appropriately so that your body doesn't run out of fuel during the night. Your body is a furnace and requires a fuel source to continue to produce adequate heat, which is food and water.

Also, make sure that you void before laying down, and if you have to go in the middle of the night, get up and go. Don't hold it. Your body will be using up that fuel source to help keep the urine warm. So, jump up and go pee, and then do a few jumping jacks before crawling back in to get your blood pumping!

Make sure that your sleeping bag/top quilt fits you appropriately. If it is too big, your body is trying to heat all that extra room, if it is too small, your body is pressing against the sides and compressing the loft, which is what holds all that heat that your body produces close to your body. Less loft is less storage space.

Make sure that your pad is inflated. From what I understand, the R-Values that are listed for sleeping pads are based on the pads being fully inflated. If this is true, if the pad is barely inflated, then you are only taking advantage of a portion of what the pad offers. (Although if I am wrong here I am sure that others will chime in. Like I said, I have read this before, but cannot confirm it.)

The amount of clothing that is worn inside a bag seems to be a bit controversial by some. Some will sleep in layer upon layer of clothing (everything that they have) inside a sleeping bag, while others wear a thin baselayer only, and then there are a few that sleep in the nude. Of course the argument for wearing everything is that you are distancing yourself from the outside air and providing more air pockets to trap the warm air that your body is producing. On the other hand, if you are layered up, then none of the heat (or at least most of the heat) that your body produces does not make it into the insulation of the sleeping bag/top quilt because it is getting trapped in the clothing layers. If this is the case, then there is more cold air trapped inside the sleeping bag… So, my suggestion here is that you try it out (even in your back yard) and find the combination that works best for you.

As far as a quilt, if you are using the quilt on the ground, width is an important factor. When looking at these make sure that the width at the shoulders are adequate to wrap around you without compressing the loft. As a reference, I am 5'10" and 195 lbs. I have a top quilt I got from Hammock Gear. It is 49" wide at the head end and has a straight taper down towards the feet. As a side sleeper, this is really too narrow for me, but it works ok because this is a summer quilt. if I were looking for a quilt to use in temps below 40 F I would want something with at least 52" width at my shoulders, and would be happier with about a 56" width (however, this is my preference, you or the next person may have a different preference). Quilts are a great piece, but they are not as simple as a sleeping bag, at least not until you use one a time or two and get an understanding of them. However, quilts are typically lighter and pack up smaller than bags, so they definitely have their advantages.

Also, if you decide to layer a ccf pad with your air pad, I suggest putting the ccf pad on top of the air pad rather than under it. Reason being, when you lay against a ccf pad, the warm air does not move away as easily when you roll over as it does in an air pad. In an air pad, movement will stir that warm air around inside the pad with cold air. So, keep the ccf pad on top of the air pad to gain the most additional thermal efficiency of the combo.

Anyway, I hope that this helps. And of course feel free to ask away on here…these forums have all the info you need and can be a lot of help if you ask around.

USA Duane Hall BPL Member
PostedApr 29, 2012 at 6:06 pm

I've been thinking of getting a quilt, but holding off for a bit as I would only save a little weight and spend $170 + – or more. I was thinking last night while out car camping, wondering if a longer pad would be needed with a quilt as I use a small NeoAir now, which has been used with a 15 degree WM bag, down to the single digits F, two nights in a row on dry ground in the Fall at Crabtree Meadow/Sky Blue Lake. With the info on this thread, sounds like I may not lose much weight if any and still have the bulk if having to add a thicker pad. I sleep on my side and toss and turn a lot, using a shelter/tent on bp trips. Thanks for the info on width needed for side sleepers.
Duane

PostedApr 29, 2012 at 6:07 pm

Both a sleeping bag and quilt offer the most minimal bottom insulation. IME, a good pad helps both equally, and both are hampered by poor ground insulation. The difference between the two is basically zero.

PostedApr 29, 2012 at 6:52 pm

Duane, As Stephan said, a good pad helps both (bag & quilt) equally. So, if you were having to add a thicker pad with a quilt, you would also have to add it with a bag. As well, most of the cold weather quilts feature a sewn footbox which extends up the quilt different lengths. Also, with a quilt, there is typically some method, whether it be ties, snaps, Velcro or some other method, which allow the quilt to be wrapped around you and closed shut, or as an alternative, the quilt can wrap around the sides of the sleeping pad. Either way, it is my opinion that you would be able to use the same sleeping pad set-up with the quilt as you could with the bag (granted the quilt and bag are equally rated). As well, because of this you could definitely save some weight since the quilt lacks a "bottom" section, which a sleeping bag has. Also, a quilt does not feature a hood, so you will have to integrate your separate hood as part of your sleep system too. However, you will already have a hood anyway in cold weather, so this is a hair more weight savings.

I do agree though, if you already have a top of the line WM bag, the weight savings will probably be minimal as compared to other lesser, heavier bags.

If you are interested in how a quilt would work though, just simply unzip your bag and sleep under it the same as you would a quilt. Also, check the specs on your bag to find out the dimensions and see how much width you could probably do away with. A lot of bags are around 59 – 62", so do you think that you could do without an few extra inches? How many? If you get a 52" wide quilt, that could be as much as a 10" slither cut out of the back of your bag. Granted that won't equal out to tons of weight saved, but if you add it up with the lesser weight of the hood and the zipper on the bag, it will equal a few oz for sure…

For reference, here is a post from my blog in which I include multiple pictures of me under my quilt. You can see how the quilt conforms around me pretty well, which may give you more of an idea of fit. Keep in mind though, this is a summer quilt. The quilt opens up completely, but I have the option to completely close up the footbox about 18" up the quilt.

http://sticksblog.com/gear/my-current-gear/sleeping-bags/hammock-gear-50-f-custom-top-quilt/

USA Duane Hall BPL Member
PostedApr 30, 2012 at 10:20 am

Thank you Chad, your reply makes sense. I'll have to check out your blog tonight, I'm at work on my lunch. I would only be using a quilt for summner trips, too much gear to try to upgrade, one season at a time for now. I've about bought all the old stoves I think I need, only about two more needed, then I can maybe upgrade my bp gear again.
Duane

PostedMay 1, 2012 at 5:54 am

Thanks for all the tips and insight. I am going to stick with my bag for now and check into a new mat. I actually had a dream last night that I owned a NeoAir All Seasoon, and it was really comfortable! :) I'll take that as a sign and start the sleeping pad research. I never really considered the Zlite or Ridgerest, I guess I though that the price point would be a reflection of the quality. Sounds like it may be a worthwhile addition to the gear though, especially if I pick one up on sale.

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