Layering w/thermawrap

Hi Jaiden,

I've been posting some of the same in other forums Like winter camping etc.

It seems like we need
1) a base layer. thin and light to wick the moisture off the skin and go to the next layer. (silk, light weight stuff like Eastern Mountain Sports EMS 'Tech Wick')
2) the next layer begins with a better insulator like Medium wight Smart wool. ( begins to control a bit of warmth as well as moisture)
3) the third layer is something like a heavey fleece, maybe incorporating a hoodi in this.
4) the last being a windbreaker water proof, breathable shell.

Whileyour walking and moving, this I'm told, is ok. But when you stop, then you begin to chill off and you need to pull something from your pack with more insulation.
Down filled top and bottom. Use it when you stop for a while. put it away when you go back to walking.

Maybe use the same Down layer to sleep in which brings your sleeping bag some greater R factor.

The above is what I've put together so far. Hope it's helpfull

First, a clarification — a wind layer is actually a type of shell layer. When you expect wind but not rain (or just a little rain), then a wind jacket or pullover will suffice as your shell layer. But if real rain is in the cards, then your shell layer should be waterproof/breathable (wp/b)jacket or pullover. On a 3-season day hike, I usually bring a wind jacket. Even if it rains, I'm just not that far from trail head anyway. But on a multi-day hike, I'll bring a lightweight wp/b jacket as my shell instead — and have it do double duty blocking both rain and wind. I don't carry both wind and rain shells.

OK, now back to the Thermawrap. This is an insulation layer that happens to be fairly wind resistant (but not wind proof or rain proof). It is meant to replace your midweight fleece. In fact, the Thermawrap is lighter, more compact and yet warmer than fleece! It does not, however, replace your shell layer. So your 'system' will look something like this:

1. Base layer — say long or short sleeve synthetic or wool tee
2. Insulation layer — Thermawrap (for morning/evening camp wear)
3. Shell layer — wp/b jacket or just a wind jacket if no rain is expected

The base layer plus Thermawrap keep me pretty comfortable to 40F when resting in camp. Adding a hooded shell layer is good to 30-35F. But if I still feel cold (say low 30's or high 20's), then I may just add another base layer — say a second wool long-sleeves tee.

When hiking, I find the combination of wp/b shell and base layer warm enough down to the low 30's.

OK both of these replies have been helpful

I do have a golite poncho on order to handle any real rain, though if the forecast is nasty, i'll probably stay home! I do think a true hard shell jacket would be more comfortable over longer periods, but I don't see myself trekking in the rainy cold enough to justify the expense. I like the versatility of the poncho to cook under (or at least I think I will!)

I don't own any sort of lightweight (down) jacket/vest, so I'll probably just bring an extra fleece such that my maximum would be base, thin fleece, thick fleece, thermawrap, wind jacket, poncho. on the bottom would be base, fleece, wind pants, rain pants. I expect to carry a garbage bag and some produce bags for an emergency vapor barrier if the "S" hits the fan.

This would be 3 insulating layers, which isn't really the method, but it does seem like it would keep alive, which is more important to me than shaving a few ounces. Also it avoids another $150 or so for a vest/jacket I probably won't use in the spring.

thanks, and I welcome any further comments.

>I don't own any sort of lightweight (down) jacket/vest

Your Thermawrap is equivalent to a "lightweight (down) jacket/vest".

>base, thin fleece, thick fleece, thermawrap, wind jacket, poncho

All of these together should take you down to +10F or below, and if you aren't going to be in those temps then you're probably carrying too much. I think the thick fleece is redundant; as Benjamin said, the Thermawrap is better all around than a thick fleece. So when you're hiking, you'll be wearing your base and add the thin fleece and/or the wind jacket if you get cold; adding both should take you well below freezing. When you stop for a break or make camp, add the Thermawrap. (This is what I do for temps down to +10F.) You can wear the thin fleece and Thermawrap in your sleeping bag to stretch it at least 10F colder if needed.

Since carrying a thick fleece isn't like carrying an extra tent, there's no reason not to bring one with you while you're testing your gear. My bet is that you won't need it, and when you're confident of that you can leave it behind.

>on the bottom would be base, fleece, wind pants, rain pants

That seems reasonable. Wear your base and wind/rain pants as needed when active, and add the fleece in camp (and/or in your bag). Again, I find this sufficient down to +10F.

..what Benjamin said, exactly.
My understanding, and application of the layer process is simple;

base + insulation + shell

– Base layer varies in thinckness depending on conditions.
(my choice is wool)

– Insulation is another "soft" layer (in order of warmth/inch..) capilene, wool, fleece, thermawrap, or down.

– Shell is a windshirt(and pants) or waterproof/breathable jacket(and pants).
(my choice is houdini+Montbell wind pants or DIAD+goretex pants)

Choose which to wear/carry based on worst case forecast and your tolerance of suffering.

> This would be 3 insulating layers, which isn't really the method,

It is 'the method'. Three layers is the rule, not four. Four layers is getting bulky and awkward. Even in the snow.
Actually, I haven't heard the phrase 'four layers' before this.

Hi Roger,

You may wish to check this link from Pro Mountain Sports regarding 3 and 4 layer clothing systems:

http://www.promountainsports.com/clothing.shtml

Rich

Actually, I haven’t heard the phrase ‘four layers’ before this.

Here is a description of a four layer system from Pro Mountain Sports. Pro Mountain Sports also have a description of a three layer sleeping system that Ryan Jordan, Jim Nelson, and Alan Dixon borrowed an illustration from for their article Clothing and Sleep Systems for Mountain Hiking.

In my view four layer systems are really just an off shoot of a three layer system. Instead of bringing heavy G-Tex shell with pit zips as your only shell (or a poncho that you swelter in when you need a little wind protection) you bring both a light wind layer (highly breathable) and a light rain layer (water proof).

For an excellent example see Ryan Jordan’s Arctic 1000 clothing list. Here he describes his four layers (not necessarily all worn at the same time) as:

Base: GoLite Stride Shorts; Smartwool Hoody
Wind: Patagonia French Roast pants; Montane Lightspeed Jacket
Rain: GoLite Virga Jacket; Mont-Bell Ultralight wind pants
Insulation: Bozeman Mountain Works Cocoon Hooded Pullover and Cocoon Pants

Dang, Richard beat me to the punch :(

I use two different 4 layer systems in the Winter:

System 1 — for Lift-served skiing:

Base Layer: Light weight Powerdry Crew

Insulation Layer: Patagonia R-1 Zip-T or Cabelas ECWS Thermal Pro fleece Zip-T depending on expected conditions

Shell Layer: Cloudveil Prospector Hoodie. This highly breathable layer provides abrasion protection for when I wipe out, a hood for climate control, and pockets for snacks and small gear storage.

Wind Layer: This is the magic layer in the system. I carry a Montane Featherlite Smock that wads up small enough to stuff into one of the Cloudveil pockets. If I need extra warmth, which is usually when the wind picks up, I put it on under the Cloudveil Hoodie. It dramatically improves wind resistance and adds warmth due to the extra air boundary layer it provides in the layering sandwich. The Featherlite is so thin that it adds almost no bulk, and its slick surface actually reduces bunching between the inner layers.

Base Layer: Lightweight Golite C-thru Zip-T or REI midweight powerdry Zip-T depending on expected temps

First Shell Layer: Cloudveil Prospector Hoodie. As above, this provides a hood, abrasion resistance and pockets in a highly breathable layer. I use just the base layer, or the hoodie and base layer when skinning uphil.

Second Shell Layer: Integral Designs eVent jacket. I carry this for rain protection if needed in our wet North Idaho winters, but also add it over the Cloudveil Hoodie for wind protection and additional warmth on descents. The Cloudveil hoodie (usually damp from perspiration) essentially becomes the insulation layer in this case.

Insulation Layer: BMW Cocoon pullover or RAB Quantum Endurance Neutrino Parka, depending on expected temperatures. This stays in my pack most of the time and only comes out for extended rest stops. It also serves as an emergency warmth layer if needed. The Cocoon can be layered over/under the others as dictated by conditions, while the RAB parka always goes on top of everything else.

Cheers,

-Mike

Reading the Pro Mountain Sports link above:

Layer 1: base synthetic or wool tee
Layer 2: light shell (e.g. wind shirt)
Layer 3: insulation
Layer 4: rain and snow shell

But is it really 4 layers — or actually still 3 layers? If I understand the article correctly, one would layer on as follows:

1. When in motion: 1 + 2 + 4
2. When at rest: 1 + 3 + 4

Wearing all four layers while in motion is probably an invitation to overheating. So I still see this as 3-layer system, but with a choice of the middle ("insulation") layer being either a lightweight wind proof garment or full-blown insulation, depending on activity (or non activity) and temperature. As explained in the article, a wind jacket in the middle can retain a surprising degree of warmth, enough anyway for a body in motion.

Now going back to OP's scenario of hiking in a low of 35F… for me anyway, when hiking for multiple days where full rain protection is desired, then I would rather bring a very light weight, very breathable but totally waterproof shell that can also perform well as a wind jacket — then to bring separate wind and rain shells with me. So my layering would be:

1. When in motion: 1 + 4
2. When at rest: 1 + 3 + 4

Ben summed it up clearly and concisely.

Pro Mountain numbers the wind shell as 2, implying it is worn over just the base layer. It also works well over any soft layer; insulation works best when it is trapped in dead air.

Using the Pro Mountain numbering scheme, I do the following, this time in a two by two matrix of temperature and wetness..

Active:
hot/dry: 1 only
hot/wet: 1+2 or 1+4
cold/dry: 1+3
cold/wet: 1+3+4

At Rest:
Add one layer to the above combos..
cold/dry: 1+3+4
cold/wet: 1+2+3+4*

Choose the R value of each layer depending on forecast. Dividing the body into 5 zones (head, torso, legs, hands, feet), you would be wearing/carrying 15 clothing items. and indeed I do in the 3 coldest seasons.

*I dont carry layer 2 and 4 at the same time, but if you did, 2 under 3 is the optimum layering sequence to create two independent dead air zones.

Forgive the simple description here; maybe it will be useful to newbies; I sure wish I had known I only needed 15 carefully chosen items (as in my example) a year ago..

When I carry a windshirt it is a four layer system

Active:

Moderate: Base
Cooler, Wind, Modest Rain: Base + Windshirt
Cooler, Heavy Rain: layer your rain jacket over whatever you are wearing. So this might be base + rain, or base, windshirt + rain. The idea is that you don't bother taking off the windshirt once it's on, until the conditions are back to where you would be comfortable with just a base layer.

Stopping:

I don't bother changing the layers I have on, I layer over them.

Cool, Raining: Add my rain shell. Helps trap some heat and keeps water at bay. Sometimes underlieing clothing will actually dry out.

Cold! Add insulation over whatever I am wearing. In my experience, this mostly doesn't happen until it's below freezing, so if there is precipitation, it's snow not rain… though on a few climbs when I was really exhausted it was either rain or sleet. That is why is important for the belay jacket have have a good DWR shell, and in warmer weather to be made from a high loft synthetic.

So the layering might be:

Base, Wind, Insulation or
Base, Wind, Hardshell, Insulation

Once I am in camp I work to dry things out. I more or less live (and sleep) in my base + windshirt. Insulation goes over this combination when needed. If it is raining, shell goes over the top of everything.

—-

These days I often am not bringing a separate windshirt. In most conditions I am using a Rainstopper Jacket as by windshirt shirt and hardshell, and in cold weather I am using a Rab Vapour Trail which integrates the base layer with a wind shell.

–mark

> Reading the Pro Mountain Sports link above:
> But is it really 4 layers — or actually still 3 layers?

Yeah, that was my thought too. Sure, you can have 4 layers of clothing with you, but would you normally wear all 4? Why bother?
Base layer – yep
Insulation layer – yep
Surface layer – windshirt or W/P, yep, but what's the point of wearing both of these at once? You won't gain much at all. Better to keep the windshirt dry if wearing the w/p layer.

Fwiiw, down to nearly freezing we normally wear just one layer – a Taslan nylon smock or windshirt – plus a pack on our back. That's usually enough. Surprising how effective a pack snugged up on your back is when you are working.

Oft time backcountry skiing we will have a base layer ('thermals') and a light fleece shirt. I might stick my EPIC windshirt over this when the wind is up, but I can't imagine wearing a full duvet while traveling fast in our conditions. I guess there are places though where you might be glad of it :-)

The windshirt that is mentioned is just a shell. How about something like the Marmot Driclime that has an added layer inside? I recently did a day hike where the temp was 25-30 degrees, 3-4 inches of snow on the ground. I wore a longsleeve Montbell merino (love it!)base layer, Driclime over that and my Moonstone Cirrus over that. Once I warmed up, the jacket came off and I was pretty comfortable after that. My question is this: if I had a windshirt of shell only, would it have made me cooler, warmer, or the same as the Driclime?

Roger asked why someone would wear four layers at once: aren't the windshirt and hardshell redundant (or the windshirt and the high loft jacket whose shell is pretty much the same as the windshell. The answer is that it not just about the layers, it is about the transitions between the layers. Our to put it slightly differently, a 3/4 approach is one where the ordering might violate base + insulation + shell ordering.

The people I know who talk about 4 layers are mostly climbers. They have larger swings between HIGH aerobic output and low output (climbing -vs- belay). Often they don't have a sheltered place to be when adjusting clothing. They recognize that changing layers causes you to lose heat, you run the risk of accidentally dropping the layer, and recognize the hassle of changing layer (especially when you are in your harness). There is a focus on process as well as the layers themselves. In this world single items go one or off, almost never are people switching layers around. So while the windshirt looks redundant in say base + windshirt + belay jacket (which has a windproof shell), the reason the windshirt is still there is that it's easier, it's not hurting anything, and when the belay jacket comes off you are ready to go.

To answer Donna's question… an unlined windshirt would have been less warm than your driclime since the driclime has some insulation. There are a fair number of people who use the driclime windshirt as an integrated base and windshirt. I use a Rab Vapour Rise Jacket in this way: when the conditions are cool enough that I am going to constantly want a windshirt (e.g. winter). In the winter I will often wear just the Vapour Rise. By itself I have all the protection I need while I am engaged in aerobic activities. When I stop it's not warm enough and I layer over it.

I can see the advantage of layering a shell in between base and insulation. Even when it's cold out there, we often sweat through our base layer when hiking in our base and shell layers. When we stop and add our insulation layer in the traditional way (base + insulation + shell), there is a risk of our sweat soaking through and compromising the insulation — esp. down.

But if we simply add the insulation on top of our base and shell (base + shell + insulation), the shell can serve as a sweat barrier when worn in the middle — correct? A fleece jacket will probably be worthless when worn as the outermost layer, but an insulation with a wind-resistant shell — such as the Thermawrap — can still do its job to a great degree.

The second advantage, as Verber wrote above, is that it saves you the trouble of switching layers (taking off just to put something else on first).

But in my mind, for hikers anyway, you still don't need 4 layers, but just 3:

When hiking: base + shell (wp, breathable, lightweight)
When resting midway: base + shell + wind-resistant insulation
When resting at camp (even colder): base + insulation + shell

I guess what I am saying is that instead of 4 layers that include both wind and rain shells, just pick a very light, very breathable rain jacket to do double duty — but place it in between base and insulation — instead of outermost as is traditional. And if you pick a wind-resistant insulation layer, then you can perhaps get away with needing a second shell to cover the insulation.

Ben,
the problem with your last assumption is that no rain shell is breathable enough to replace a windshirt. Leaving the windshirt at home perhaps lightens the load but decreases comfort which is in contradiction with what we're trying to achieve.

Quote: Brett1234
"Dividing the body into 5 zones (head, torso, legs, hands, feet), you would be wearing/carrying 15 clothing items. and indeed I do in the 3 coldest seasons."

Brett, I tried to list the 15 items I use on a per-season basis. I love the idea of layering on the head, which I don't personally do enough of. But I have one question: what do you use for layer #2 (light wind layer) for your hands and feet?

I can come up with 13 items but not 15!

Tom:

This one is going to be variable depending on each individual's needs and preference…

On multi-day trips, my rain jacket does double duty as wind breaker. I've found that my air permeable MontBell Peak Shell jacket works really well. I've snow shoed on a 2-mile stretch with moderate but almost continuous incline at 35-38F, carrying a full backpack. I didn't break a sweat at all — even with full zip and pit zips all closed up — there just wasn't any need to monkey with ventilation at all.

Sure, the Peak Shell weighs 11 oz whereas a wind jacket weighs just 3-5 ounces. But if I am going to carry a rain jacket anyway — then yes, it can make sense to leave the wind jacket at home.

My understanding is that some of the eVENT jackets are even more breathable than my pretty-darn-good MontBell Peak Shell.

Mark, I'm assuming you meant Drop Stoppers when you were talking about using your rain shell as your wind shirt. Would you compare the Drop Stoppers and the Montbell Peak Jacket with a Houdini in terms of breathability when all are used as a wind shirt in cool temps.

Ben,
I don't have any practical experience with both eVENT or Breeze Dry-tec so I can't comment on that. My current rainjacket is paclite which I only wear in heavy rain because under better conditions it's just not comfortable enough.
Now, if someone could compare the breathability of an Arc'teryx Anabatic windshell with eVENT or Breeze Dry-tec, that would give me a better idea of how breathable these really are.

I bet Mark Verber can do the comparison — he seems to own one of everything. :)

Not that I have done any actual comparison, but I would assume that a good wind jacket is going to be more breathable than a good rain jacket. But in my own experience, I've found my MB Peak Shell rain jacket to perform very well doing double duty at below 40F.

Martin…

For cool temp protection from just wind my preference is:

1) Houdini
2) Drop Stoppers
3) Montbell Peak

Drop Stoppers are a bit better than the Peak when the vents are closed on the Peak. I think this is because the Drop Stoppers are a lighter material, maybe slightly more breathable?, is oversized so I get a bellowing action which pumps some air through the Drop Stoppers, and finally is lighter weight.

–Mark