Apr 10, 2012 at 10:51 am #1288540
@leslerLocale: right here, right now
what are others reaching for after feeling shelled?
choice beverages? food?
i'm hung up on cocount water and bananas.
ltApr 10, 2012 at 11:04 am #1865748
A few years ago a bunch of us did a super tough dayhike. We were out for about 17 hours before arriving at a campground and the rest of our group. They asked me what I wanted to eat, but I was too tired to eat a lot. I asked for one cup of fruit juice and one bowl of hot soup. Then I collapsed to sleep.
–B.G.–Apr 10, 2012 at 11:08 am #1865750
I tend to be like Bob. When I'm exercising I tend to not eat a lot and after I just eat whatever I normally eat. With that said, the leaner I've gotten the faster I get hungry. I attended a local whitewater raft guide school a few weeks ago and found myself eating a ton. The coconut water and banana cravings are probably (ok, just an educated guess really) related to a depletion of potassium.Apr 10, 2012 at 11:20 am #1865757
I used to get bad muscle cramps during heavy exercise. Then I got smart and started on bananas or Gatorade, each good sources of potassium. Then the cramps went away.
If you just want the electrolytes but you don't need the sugar dose of the Gatorade, then take some dieter's salt substitute. It is potassium chloride with a little sodium chloride. Plus, if you put that into your other food, it won't upset your stomach.
–B.G.–Apr 10, 2012 at 12:05 pm #1865765
A magnesium supplement is really helpful for muscle cramping. Muscle cramping can also be a sign of dehydration or can happen with a new activity that the muscles aren't accustomed to. Usually for me it is the not enough water thing.
My family doc is also Sports Med and a marathoner. She believes that water is best and that we don't need the electrolyte replacement drinks if we have a decent diet and keep hydrated. I asked if she uses them in the marathons she runs…. nope – just water.
It really depends on the day what I do post-workout. If I am hiking, I've generally fueled along the way. If I am running it depends. Sometimes I'll have a yogurt (or chocolate milk). I generally have a small handful of nuts or granola that is heavy on the nuts along with the dairy. If my blood sugar is low I also pop a couple ClifBloks. Sometimes I have a quinoa salad with some sort of bean (usually edamame) in it.
Today I had 1/2 whole grain bagel with cream cheese, fresh herbs, roasted garlic and roasted mixed peppers and a glass of mineral water. I also had an apple. I choose this because I ran right before lunch.Apr 10, 2012 at 12:36 pm #1865783
@bookLocale: Northern California
So I discovered dried bananas last season. Just awesome in my morning oatmeal! Also love 'em during the rest of the day. Does anyone know (Laurie) if these dried bananas have all the potassium goodness of the regular nanner, or if the drying process kills the nutritional value?Apr 10, 2012 at 1:01 pm #1865792
Jeffrey, the drying and preparation of bananas should not have any serious effect on potassium. It will have some effect on other nutrients such as vitamins. But, if you are just trying to get some calories and potassium, there is no problem.
–B.G.–Apr 10, 2012 at 1:02 pm #1865793
I've had good luck with the Endurox R4 I got on closeout from Bonktown.Apr 10, 2012 at 1:07 pm #1865797
As far as I know dried fruit retains much of the nutritional value. Now I am talking about freeze-dried and home-dehyrated bananas here. Those crispy ones are actually fried and I'm not sure of the nutritional values on those (they are yummy though).
There are actually other good sources of potassium (some of these are even better than bananas)…
– sweet potatoes
– beet greens
– orange juice
– white beans
– dried apricots
– cocoaApr 10, 2012 at 1:12 pm #1865798
Those crispy banannas are fried, and coated with sugar water so they don't turn black.Apr 10, 2012 at 1:17 pm #1865800
@eugeneiusLocale: Nuevo Mexico
Depends on duration and exertion. I'm a bit of a catfish and don't have a stringent diet I stick to.
For my early morning trail runs (1.5-2hr) I always down a banana at the trailhead post run, gets me from trailhead to the coffee shop where I usually grab a green chile bagel w/ cream cheese and a coffee. Maltodextrin based gel or drink lightly during my run so I'm not famished (~100-200cals). This is my routine most days and does the trick.
For any running over >3 hrs. I grab fruit (banana, apple, pear, etc) immediately post run and usually have some whey protein ready to mix into some water back at the trailhead (*if my stomach is cooperating). If it's an ultramarathon or long run with run mates I will eat whatever is available at the finish or at the nearest brewery.
A pint of brown or double IPA with a green chile burger and sweet potato fries is killer.Apr 10, 2012 at 1:18 pm #1865801
Yes… I knew that Joe. That's why I avoid them unless I am backpacking (occasional treat as a small ingredient in a granola bar). I've started drying my own dipped in lime juice and a little agave nectar… not quite as crunchy but a wee bit healthier.
The freeze-dried ones from Natural High are fabulous. They rehydrate instantly and the texture is good. Not as good as a fresh banana mind you.Apr 10, 2012 at 2:37 pm #1865828
"If you just want the electrolytes but you don't need the sugar dose of the Gatorade, then take some dieter's salt substitute. It is potassium chloride with a little sodium chloride. Plus, if you put that into your other food, it won't upset your stomach."
+1 It's called Mortons Lite SaltApr 10, 2012 at 3:00 pm #1865835
"I've had good luck with the Endurox R4 I got on closeout from Bonktown."
Whether or not one chooses to use a "recovery" drink, the type and amount of ingredients they generally contain can provide a template for what you should be taking in, regardless of the source, IMO/IME. Primarily carbs and protein in a 3:1 ratio, along with electrolytes. I am talking here about recovering from an extended hard workout or long, hard day on the trail. For shorter efforts it doesn't make that much difference because you haven't exhausted msucle glycogen or metabolized significant muscle protein.
@ Laurie – I have to disagree with your doc on the electrolytes, at least for endurance activities, especially in hot weather. I have personally had two serious incidents, during a marathon and a 50 miler, where electrolyte depletion was part of my problem. I also used to have frequent trouble with leg cramps, and since I started to add electrolytes to my water have experienced practically none. Maybe I'm a unique physical specimen, but somehow I doubt it. No doubt there are individual variences but, in the course of an extended effort, everyone loses Na in particular and, to a lesser degree, K, beyond what is ingested in a normal diet.Apr 10, 2012 at 3:33 pm #1865855
@sarbarLocale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
I eat whatever I crave – if I can find it that is ;-) Today I had a leftover bean burrito from last night's dinner. Was delicious and filled my belly.
I get my freeze-dried fruits/berries from Trader Joe's. The bananas are excellent. I eat a lot of potassium in food due to my BP meds. I live on a "diet" high in veggies/fruits as well.
But honestly some days all I want is a latte and I go for it!Apr 10, 2012 at 3:42 pm #1865858
@cohikerLocale: San Isabel NF
If you're talking about those 20-mile dayhikes or century bike rides, there's a growing body of scientific research showing that plain old chocolate milk is as good for recovery after endurance exercise as anything that marketed as a recovery aid. It has a nearly perfect ratio of protein to carbs, plus a little fat.
During two separate courses earning a BS in exercise physiology I had to not only conduct a meta-study on the subject from an endurance point of view (mostly cyclists doing multi-hour rides), but also as a class actually created and conducted and participated in an experiment investigating the effect of chocolate milk on recovery after high aerobic intensity workouts to exhaustion. We specifically ran 200m and 400m sprints.
Turns out it's quite effective in pretty much every regard. It's also cheap, palatable, and easily acquirable at any gas station or grocery store.
It doesn't provide much in the electrolytes, but that can be addressed rather easily with oral rehydration salts, or gatorade you drink during the hike/run/ride.Apr 10, 2012 at 3:49 pm #1865861
@sarbarLocale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Actually dairy milk is full of electrolytes! 8 ounces of 2% has 400 mg of potassium and 125 mg sodium with 8 grams protein.Apr 10, 2012 at 4:09 pm #1865875
"there's a growing body of scientific research showing that plain old chocolate milk is as good for recovery after endurance exercise as anything that marketed as a recovery aid. It has a nearly perfect ratio of protein to carbs, plus a little fat."
+1 It's the "go to" recovery drink for one of my hiking partners, a seriously fit endurance athlete. She got the idea from an exercise physiologist up here, and swears by it. The only issue I can see has to do with backpacking. It isn't practical to carry chocolate milk on multi day trips. We were talking a couple of days ago about experiementing with Nido and cocoa powder. I used a combination of 2 oz Ensure and 1 oz Nido last year in the mountains with acceptable results, but it is a bit to high in fat to be an optimal recovery drink, IMO. Lots of options without breaking the bank using commercial recovery drinks.Apr 10, 2012 at 4:13 pm #1865877
@cohikerLocale: San Isabel NF
"Actually dairy milk is full of electrolytes! 8 ounces of 2% has 400 mg of potassium and 125 mg sodium with 8 grams protein."
Well, I'll be… You're right. I never looked at that. All our experimental concern was for the protein/sugar/fat proportions.
"The only issue I can see has to do with backpacking. It isn't practical to carry chocolate milk on multi day trips."
It's heavy because it's liquid, but I drank a fair amount of Shelf-stable choc. milk on deployment, and it's not undrinkable. Roughly the same nutrition too.Apr 10, 2012 at 6:34 pm #1865940
Tom…. I trust her judgement on this one. Keep in mind too that (for me at least) she recommends a daily magnesium supplementation for running (and that is one of the important electrolytes). She is sports med and was a military doc before that so she's used to extremes. She did recommend yogurt or choc. milk or a date bar post run. All of those contain electrolytes. Plain old water does contain minerals although there can be variances in that by region.
I also do not sweat profusely even under extreme circumstances. I wish I could sweat more because I'd be able to regulate my body temp better… anyway I have to wonder if this puts me at less risk for hyponatremia.
So, after your comment, I thought I'd Google it and I found this interesting article with resources cited and linked.Apr 10, 2012 at 6:56 pm #1865948
This all depends on the duration and whether it is a multiday event.
1) For sub 4 hour I love the chocolate milk. I also will get intense craving for beer which is strange since I rarely drink it.
2) For longer single day events I make sure I get plenty of protein. I do this immediately at finish.
3) For multiday events I do both protein and carbs to replenish the carb supply for the next day.
As far as electrolytes, I with Tom. With all due respect to your friend, a 4 hour marathon is not pushing the limits in most cases with respect to electrolytes. While she could get away with it she would likely change her tune in events beyond a marathon. Like Tom, I used to get bad cramping on high mile hiking days from lack of electrolytes. No longer.
The Lite Salt will give you Potassium, Sodium and Cloride. I also mix in a magnesium and calcium complex and take a multi vitamin to get the rest of the critical electrolytes.Apr 10, 2012 at 7:05 pm #1865952
"Tom…. I trust her judgement on this one."
For your situation, yes. However, if you ever decide to get into endurance training/running, I'd revisit the subject if I were you. Maybe at least get a second opinion? Your doc is not infallible, and there are other opinions. (See below)
"Keep in mind too that (for me at least) she recommends a daily magnesium supplementation for running (and that is one of the important electrolytes). She is sports med and was a military doc before that so she's used to extremes."
I also use a magnesium supplement, and it has helped me a lot, but I also make sure I have adequate sodium/potassium dripping in on longer, hotter, higher altitude workouts/hikes. You do lose sodium under those conditions and if you go on long enough, you will need to replace it. I choose not to wait until I am "a quart low" to do so because by that time my body's homeostasis has been disrupted and bad things start to happen. Been there, done that, and it isn't a pretty sight.
"anyway I have to wonder if this puts me at less risk for hyponatremia."
Perhaps, but it also puts you at greater risk of hypothermia if it is hot, especially if it is humid and/or you are out for an extended period.
"So, after your comment, I thought I'd Google it and I found this interesting article with resources cited and linked."
Yes, and it basically makes the same points I have been trying to make. Keep in mind that I am not talking about 5k runs. The article cites the Mayo Clinic as recommending that you consider electrolytes in your fluid intake if you are going to be out more than an hour, if I have read the article correctly.May 1, 2012 at 7:09 am #1873046
There really is nothing better than what nature provides. After exercise you have about a 45min window to refuel the muscles. They need glucose and protein. A banana and an egg with salt added is the best recovery out there. Of course you need water as well. Weigh yourself before and after exertion to get an idea of water loss. 8lbs/ gallon and drink what you lost. Pediolyte is the best water replacement. It has nearly perfectly balanced electrolytes. No Dr has ever said, hurry give that dehydrated baby some gatoraide. Gatoraide is about the worst thing you can drink. Takes out much more water than it puts in. And the electrolytes are totally out if balance. Way to much sugar, not enough salt, calcium or potassium. It has an osmolality of about 900 and humans are at 300. Anything about 300 takes water out of the system and anything lower puts water in. Near 300 puts water and electrolytes in. Pediolyte is 270. No sports drink even comes close. I tell all my patients who are long distance athletes to put pediolyte in their sorts bottles and it makes a huge difference in performance. no more cramps.May 1, 2012 at 5:12 pm #1873245
"Pediolyte is the best water replacement. It has nearly perfectly balanced electrolytes."
I think you can come close enough for field work using Mortons Lite salt replacement. It's a lot cheaper and you can take just as much as you need based on the duration of your activity. I've been using this for years for backpacking, bookended by calcium and magnesium supplements at either end of the day with good results.May 1, 2012 at 9:38 pm #1873359
If you were a chemist you might get it right. No one in the sports drink world has managed to get it right and you're not likely to either. You're best bet is to use water and real sea salt as it is as close to your own bodies mineral makeup as nature gets. Any salt that has been treated like table salt will always have the minerals out of balance. This is why table salt raises blood pressure but sea salt does not. Always trust nature first. Man nearly always gets it wrong. On things like hikes and camping and athletic events it wont matter much. When your life is on the line it might. I saw a 26 year old girl go into a coma last year at a marathon that was unusually hot. She nearly died from dehydration and the family just couldn't figure it out. She drank gator-aide the whole race. Stuff should be banned from sports.
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