Canister Refiller — WARNING

“We use imported propane/butane 250 gramme canisters. Below 7000 metres/23,000 feet we refill the canisters with propane gas.”

Next question is what kind of stove and canisters are they? Perhaps the Coleman style 16oz propane canisters? Those are heavy and thick. Plus these folks are not UL hiking, they are doing serious high altitude work.

They say that they’re using 250g propane/butane canisters not 465g (16.4oz) 100% propane canisters.

Even if I were completely not a UL’er, I wouldn’t carry one of those heavy 100% propane canisters at altitudes above 7000m!

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

See what you can decipher from this:

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One bar = 14.5038 psi

What Code is that from and what is the scope of that code?

It is very dangerous to apply design practice or rules from one code to the jurisdiction of another code.

To find out what the design basis for these canisters is you need to determine the code they are built to and check only that code.

In piping code generally the stress limit is 2/3rds yeild so theoretically something can handle 1.5 times design pressure. However that safety factor is there for a reason. The codes don't take into account all possible load cases, the metal you are using might not quite be up to standard. It might be used improperly by the operator, the upset condition you designed for my not take into account all possible scenarios, you may be designing for static conditions and dynamic effects may produce pressure transients above the calculated values, poor assumptions, accelerated corrosion, etc etc. I could go on and on of things that aren't neccessarily accounted for by design codes as they are not a cookbook they are minimum standards.

So even if you find out what the maximum burst pressure is for the canister it is stupid and against code to exceed the design pressure of the canister. Generally manufacturers will build to the maximum design pressure and no more.

> So what would happen with a canister gas leak?

first thing that would happen, I guess, is you would notice. It's hard to ignore the sound and the smell.

Not a nice thing to happen, I know, and potentially dangerous but not necessarily a catastrophic event.

Greg, The code is for Aerosol Dispensers filled with compressed or dissolved gas and Containers used for filling with liquefied gas.

It doesn't say REI stove gas dispensers. I have not found the code for those. You seem to know a lot about codes, can you determine where to find the code for the canisters we are concerned with? I'm trying, that's all I can do to answer my own questions. Roger pointed us in a direction of a resource only available to donating member of which I am not. My subscription ran out. If anyone has access to that info please let us know what the bursting pressure is.

The info is out there, only a matter of time to find it. Wish Jim could find that for us. Even you Greg, maybe you can find it, at least try.

>So even if you find out what the maximum burst pressure is for the canister it is stupid and against code to exceed the design pressure of the canister. Generally manufacturers will build to the maximum design pressure and no more.

Even though I'm not going to fill a canister with propane, I want to know what the maximum psi gas canisters are rated for. And I'm talking about the small canisters we use for our back packing stoves.

Tha manufacturer may go well beyond the code just to cover their backsides. Especially when they know that end users are wrapping windscreens around their stove.

Greg, the canisters might be rated far beyond what is produced by LPG.

but the generation, curation, formatting, annotating and publication of information still costs money.

Hi Dan

> At what pressure do they burst.
Subscribe, and all will be revealed.

Cheers

EN 417 is the standard the canisters are generally designed to. I dont have access to that standard so that is as far as i can go. Also even if i did get acess to it I am very weary about interpeting a standard which i dont have expertise in over the internet where i have no control over how that information is used.

Hence my perfered default response would be dont do it.

Actually, while all the stove and canister mfrs say they conform to EN417, that really means NOTHING. I'm serious. I have asked some of the stove 'mfrs' in USA for a copy of the relevant part of EN417, and I was told they don't even have a copy.

All EN417 does is to specify safety limits, in a general manner. And they have a special exemption for small camping gas canisters anyhow.

The crucial thing is for the canister mfrs to get a DoT approval for their canister. That's about it.

For further reading, see
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_GasStoves.htm#EN417

Cheers

I think you are all being unnecessarily cautious. I have being refilling canisters for years. However, it is important to consider how best to mitigate the potential risks. I mitigate by getting one of my hiking partners to carry them. They can't tell what's in the canister and it's so much safer for me.

On one hike the heat and elevation got to the canister. So it went off with a bang… pretty exciting. But what made it even better was the explosive decompression ejected every thing out the top of his pack like so much UL confetti. Cool. His sleeping bag came shooting out the top like one of those trick spring/snakes in can… except bigger. Just as I was thinking it couldn't get any better I noticed the canister bottom had come out the bottom of his fancy pack and clipped his left cheek as it went by.

So.. if he should happen to tell you this story and wants to show off the scar to prove it, just say no.

Please note that this is all complete BS. I don't really have any hiking partners. Not since the flare gun incident anyway.

David that was funny story that also has some truths. The canisters we use have a rolled seal on bottom to join the top and bottom parts of the canister together,The valve is only activated when a pin is pushed in to the hole on valve stem type of release valve that is very weak. Are also made out very thin metal or composite of different metals, Basically tin cans that hold gas.

The refillable Canister that you find used on trailers and Recreational vehicles are heavy gage metal and have welded seams { a photo of one is at the very first post of this thread] The heavy duty canister also has a on- off valve also.

I am going to tell you a story my parents were moving back from Kingman, Arizona in the summer as they were going through the town of Needles,Ca. My Dad looked at the outside temperature gauge on his car It said 112 degrees. As they drove down the road my Dad heard a couple of explosion noises in his trunk. He pulled over to see what happened to his car and the 6 pack of coca cola had exploded in the trunk with cola all over the trunk and pieces of aluminum can shrapnel all over the place in the car trunk. One piece of shrapnel broke the glass the on picture frame with family photos.

So which canister would you think would blow up in a heated environment and turn to little pieces of shrapnel and cause bodily harm? The one time use light tin can cartridges we use or the heavy gage metal welded refillable canister ?
Also why does Jet boil include a cartridge puncture tool with each canister so the canister can be recycled? Because the canisters are not meant to be refilled!
Terry

Ps: This discussion has become a contest to see who will win the Darwin Award finding out if you can refill these cartridges. I really would hate to see any of your names at the top of the yearly Darwin award list because you died or were injured trying to refill a $0.25 cartridge to save money.

@David: lol. Yes, funny story. Now, tells us about the “flare gun incident.” ;)

@Terry: Your points are well taken. It does matter what you refill will though. I do refill, but I use 100% butane.

One of the reasons I refill with butane only is safety. Go down to a gas station or convenience store some time. Check out one of those clear plastic lighters. That clear fluid in there? That’s butane. Butane under sufficient pressure to keep it liquid. Yep, a little flimsy plastic can hold that pressure. Now compare that little plastic lighter to a 16.4oz (465g) 100% propane canister from Coleman. That’s the difference between 100% butane’s pressure and 100% propane’s pressure.

When I put 100% butane into a steel canister designed for a 70/30 butane/propane mix, I’ve got a really nice safety margin.

And conversely, when you compare a canister designed for 100% propane to a backpacking canister, you can easily see why I would feel apprehensive — and why I wrote the original post that started this thread.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Some interesting information in this thread related to recent discussions on Propane canistors.

Regulations schmegulations.

I think the regulations are intended more to prevent refilling and then selling.

If you refill for yourself, you get to look out for yourself.

However, if you sell the refilled canister to some else, then you incur all sorts of legal liabilities. So the ‘authorities say don’t do it, so they don’t have any risk (liability) themselves.

A secondary consideration is the cheap crappy plated steel used in the Lindal valves. It loses its plating quite quickly and the surface rusts. This makes for a poor seal. Don’t blame Lindal for this: they do have better versions. Blame the manufacturers instead, for going for the very cheapest option.

Cheers