Canister Refiller — WARNING

[Hikin’ Jim]

It is possible that the seller may be using a large tank of butane. That doesn't much help a buyer in a country where that fitting connects to a tank of 100% propane, but it is possible that a tank with that fitting could contain butane.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Dan Yeruski]

Jim, I think you jumped the gun on this one and assumed he was filing a canister with propane.

[Inaki Diaz de Etura]

> It is safe until one blows up. There are many factors, a big one is how many refills can the valve accept in a canister or cylinder?

I guess a valve failure would turn into a gas leak, not a canister blow up, correct?

[Terry Trimble]

I really don't know why people are even arguing about refilling the small canister used in our backpacking stove. My family owned a major appliance business since I was kid. When we moved to Fallbrook,ca. Most of the town used LPG gas so I have personally converted hundreds of stoves,cook tops, Wall ovens,Clothes dryer from natural gas to LPG gas.

Then I worked for appliance company that had a delivery truck fleet that ran on gasoline converted to LPG gas. I had to wait for the attendant to refill the tank every few days. I asked him question about LPG gas and refilling propane tanks he explained to me about how certain valves are made to be refilled hundreds of time verse some valves are made only to refill once like camp stove cartridges.

We talked about how my truck seemed to be running hotter burning the the LPG verse gasoline he said it does burn hotter. He said that happens with truck conversions verses propose built LPG trucks. In fact after one year after replacing exhaust manifolds on the fleet twice because of blowing small holes through the manifolds and shooting blue flames out the side of the manifold. Our company scraped the LPG program and leased Diesel delivery trucks.

So a leaking pressure valve damaged on a small canister like we use can be dangerous if refilled and leaking and could explode while cooking. The price we pay for the disposable canister is only about $0.25 so for safety sakes it not worth refilling risking injury from a damaged pressure safety valve.

If you want save money get a liquid filled backpacking gas stove or alcohol stove.
Terry

[Nick Gatel]

"I guess a valve failure would turn into a gas leak, not a canister blow up, correct?"

So what would happen with a canister gas leak? Light the stove and the vapor coming out of a top mounted stove would ignite the fuel at the leak. Seals would melt and more fuel would escape. I imagine one of two things would happen. The canister would over heat or the flame would flash into the canister – both scenarios could likely cause an explosion/canister failure. Maybe you would see the flame in time to turn off the stove, but it would more than likely turn into a fireball before you could act. Not to mention you could burn down a forest.

I have converted gas vehicles to LPG, tested & adjusted LPG vehicles for emissions, repaired LPG vehicles, tested & repaired gasoline fuel systems of cars & trucks — from low pressure carburetor systems — to high pressure high performance fuel injected systems, converted appliances from natural gas to LPG, repaired RV LPG stoves/furnaces/water heaters/absorption refrigerators/catalytic heaters, built LPG supply systems in RVs from scratch and installed new appliances, etc. I have witnessed fuel related industrial accidents.

I am not afraid of any fuel, but I respect them. Especially fuel in a pressurized vessel. And I always follow manufacturer's specifications and instructions.

Can you adapt and be safe by going outside the parameters set by the manufacturers? Yes, probably. Hiking Jim probably knows more about these system than the vast majority of users and he seems very safety conscious. He also posts warnings anytime he varies from the manufacturer's recommendations. But potentially a stupid person(s) is going to read his blog and injure themselves.

I am not posting my experience to brag, but to warn people.

Do as you please. But if you get injured or die, I won't shed a tear. I will just say you were warned and your actions were stupid.

[Hikin’ Jim]

I think you jumped the gun on this one and assumed he was filing a canister with propane.

I'm not trying to warn people over there; I'm trying to warn people here.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

I guess a valve failure would turn into a gas leak, not a canister blow up, correct?

The most likely failure would be for the valve not to reseal properly when you remove the stove from the canister. In that case, I would re-attach the stove and see if I could get the valve to re-seat properly. I've had valves jam open before — not on canisters that had been refilled by the way. The important thing here, whether with new canisters or refilled canisters, is to never attach or detach a stove near a heat source.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

I am not afraid of any fuel, but I respect them. Especially fuel in a pressurized vessel. And I always follow manufacturer's specifications and instructions.

Words of wisdom; words that if followed will not lead one astray.

The point of this post was to pointedly warn anyone away from this particular refilling device since a) the device itself is shoddy and b) the gas that it would connect to (at least in the US) would be decidedly unsafe. But that warning assumes that someone would even consider refilling a canister in the first place. Most will not, and that's probably a good thing.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Dan Yeruski]

Nick Gatel asked:

>There is no published standard I have ever read, they are designed to take one initial fill at a minimum. Then there are different blends iso/pro, butane, propane, etc. Do we know the burst rates of canisters?

Nick and I would like to know the burt rate of canisters. Years ago I was lead to beleive that canisters were designed to withstand the pressures of gas many time over than what was going to be introduced into them. Who has the answer to this one, come out from under the rocks.

Another qustion:

What pressure exists inside of a clear plastic hose filled with liquid propane? No air inside the hose, only LP.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Nick

> The canister would over heat or the flame would flash into the canister
The flame can NOT 'flash into the canister'. Not possible: no oxygen in the canister, AND the hole is too small for a flame to pass through it.

In practice, assuming you are monitoring your stove, it is usually fairly easy to turn the valve off. But if the gas is leaking from under the stove (from the connnection), that does not work of course. The solution then is to either unscrew the stove – which might be a wee bit tricky if there are flames, or to throw the stove into the creek!

The design of the Lindal valve is very good. I have heard of a canister leaking at the valve after a stove was removed, but only once or twice. You would need to get dirt into the seal inside, which is actually rather hard to do. It can usually be cleared by poking the valve down briefly or reconnecting the stove for a moment, to flush the dirt out.

The sensible person always checks the stove/canister combo for leaks before lighting. That is quite easy to do just by listening. It becomes automatic. The same applies when disconnecting the stove.

But I have to agree with you: Darwin rules!

Cheers

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Dan, Look up the phase diagram for propane.

[Jerry Adams]

I have used maybe 40 canisters

One of them leaked when I unscrewed the stove, so I just screwed the stove back on and left it that way until the canister was empty. No big deal because it only leaked when the flame was out and I was unscrewing it.

My Coleman F1 ultralight started leaking between canister and stove. Problem was stove, not canister. It would flame up, I blew it out, screwed it on tighter and then it worked. No big thing. Bought new stove.

I'm still waiting for someone that overflows their boiling pot onto the canister, which raises temperature of canister, which could produce a much bigger flame.

[Dan Yeruski]

We can all go home now. Jim has succeeded in having the listing removed.

Kudos to Jim!!!

110850400525 – MacCoupler Liquefied Gas Refill Adaptor Gas Charging Valve Inflatable converter

We're sorry to tell you that the item isn't available for purchase anymore. We removed the listing because it likely fell into one of these three categories:

— The listing doesn't follow eBay guidelines.
— The item isn't allowed on eBay or can only be listed under certain conditions.
— The listing contains pictures or words that may have violated copyright or trademark rights.

[Nick Gatel]

A 5 gallon (20#) LPG tank will have an internal pressure between 100 psi and 200 psi, depending upon the temperature.

Code for interior RV appliances cannot feed LPG at a pressure higher than 11 inches of water column, or about 6 ounces of pressure per square inch. So how do we drop the pressure in an RV? We use a pressure regulator at the tank. In my tent trailer if I turn on my 3 burner stove, my oven, my water heater, my refrigerator, and my furnace all at the same time, the system pressure stays right at 11 inches WC. And the flame from my furnace and water heater are much larger than anything you will see from a canister stove. The appliances are rate at around 12,000 btu at maximum operation. How do I know the pressure never drops below 11 inches, you ask? I measure it with my manometer (or you could build one). This is what a manometer looks like.

My manometer goes from 0 to 15 inches measured on the outer scale.

Now a 5 gallon propane tank can actually hold more than 5 gallons, but the OPD device in the tank limits it to 4.7 gallons or about 80% of its potential volume.

So what we need to know about canisters…

What is the fill pressure and do you have a tool to measure it.

What is the max volume of liquid your canister is rated to handle and do you have a tool to measure it.

What is the max pressure coming out of the canister that your stove is rated to handle and do you have tool to measure it. Lets say that your canister can handle double the pressure your stove is meant to operate at, what would happen? I can tell you what will happen if you hook up a low pressure RV stove to the exterior regulated high pressure appliance fitting (16 psi)… Mt St. Helens. Because of this, RV manufactures have quit supply high press appliances/fittings for outside use.

What is the lining of your canister made of, and what kinds of chemicals can degrade it. For example, is the interior rust resistant and would any water vapor get inside your canister when you fill it yourself. LPG is not pure propane. It contains other chemicals, some purposely added. Would any of these chemicals damage the canister lining. What is the chemical make up of that butane vessel your might use to fill a canister. Is it truly 100% butane?

[Cayenne Redmonk]

Maybe someone could pressure test some empty containers to get an idea of the pressure where they fail
.

[Larry De La Briandais]

That would be very interesting to know. Anyone on here have that capability?

[stephan q]

"We provide you with a special high altitude stove and fuel canisters. Our stoves are of the "hanging" type, designed to be used inside the tent (well ventilated of course). We have found these to be the best possible stoves for high altitude use, as it is essential to cook inside the tent during stormy weather. Our stoves are suspended above the floor so you have room to sit comfortably and warmly in your sleeping bag while cooking.

Our high altitude fuel is of two types. Above 7000 metres/23,000 feet we use imported propane/butane 250 gramme canisters. Below 7000 metres/23,000 feet we refill the canisters with propane gas. Liquid fuel does not work above 6000 metres/19,700 feet so we don't use liquid fuel above basecamp or advanced basecamp."

This info is from the Summitclimb.com website. Sounds like standard practice for these folks. They cook in the tent with cylinders that have been refilled with propane. Perhaps the device was for propane after all.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Our high altitude fuel is of two types. Above 7000 metres/23,000 feet we use imported propane/butane 250 gramme canisters. Below 7000 metres/23,000 feet we refill the canisters with propane gas.

To me, it's a really bad idea to refill canisters that are intended for a propane/butane mix to be filled with 100% propane, but maybe it's working for them. If the temperatures are cold, which they may well be at high altitude, then the internal pressure may be manageable. Just don't forget and leave a canister in your pack when you descend.

Liquid fuel does not work above 6000 metres/19,700 feet so we don't use liquid fuel above basecamp or advanced basecamp."

Really? When did this change occur? You mean those guys up on Everest in the early days with liquid fueled stoves were doing it wrong? This is fascinating information (I'm being very sarcastic here).

Stephen, I'd really think twice before climbing with this outfit. It does not sound like they know what they're doing. Primus and Optimus liquid fueled stoves have been used as high as any stove that has ever been used. Jim Whittaker (first American to summit Everest which is 29000+ feet) swore by his old Optimus 00, a liquid fueled stove. I seem to recall that Edmund Hillary used a Primus (a kerosene stove). I could go on.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Roger Caffin]

> Nick and I would like to know the burt rate of canisters.
Specify the temperature first.
Below 50 C it is meant to be zero. Yes, there is regular testing.

> canisters were designed to withstand the pressures of gas many time over than what
> was going to be introduced into them
and
> What pressure exists inside of a clear plastic hose filled with liquid propane?

For more info on this general area, read our articles on
Cold Canisters and
Canister Overheating

The info is mostly there. Otherwise, check the DoT regulations.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> it only leaked when the flame was out and I was unscrewing it.
> It would flame up, I blew it out, screwed it on tighter and then it worked.
If I read this correctly, it says that the canister started to leak while you were connecting or unscrewing the stove? In that case, keep (un)screwing the stove fast.

What is happening (when unscrewing) is that the O-ring seal is being broken BEFORE the actuating pin has retreated enough that it no longer depresses the valve. This does happen sometimes, as the exact dimensions between the Lindal valve and the stove pin are NOT defined. Some stove/canister combos can do this.

The secret here is to always screw the stove down and unscrew the stove fairly quickly. That way you pass through any possible leaking stage very quickly.
Yes, it is annoying.
Yes, it could be dangerous if done right next to a running stove.
No, we probably have no chance of getting all players to agree on a single standard. No-one will be willing to accept that they have to change.

> I'm still waiting for someone that overflows their boiling pot onto the canister,
> which raises temperature of canister, which could produce a much bigger flame.
Be very careful about what you wish for. There have been accidents with over-heated tanks, resulting in burst tanks and people getting 3rd degree burns over a significant part of their body. I have photos, but they can stay unpublished.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> Maybe someone could pressure test some empty containers to get an idea of the pressure where they fail

Been there, done that.
See Canister Overheating
for the details.
Yeah, very loud bangs!

Cheers

[Nick Gatel]

"Our high altitude fuel is of two types. Above 7000 metres/23,000 feet we use imported propane/butane 250 gramme canisters. Below 7000 metres/23,000 feet we refill the canisters with propane gas. Liquid fuel does not work above 6000 metres/19,700 feet so we don't use liquid fuel above basecamp or advanced basecamp."

Next question is what kind of stove and canisters are they? Perhaps the Coleman style 16oz propane canisters? Those are heavy and thick. Plus these folks are not UL hiking, they are doing serious high altitude work.

[Roger Caffin]

> Our high altitude fuel is of two types. Above 7000 metres/23,000 feet we use imported
> propane/butane 250 gramme canisters. Below 7000 metres/23,000 feet we refill the
> canisters with propane gas.
ALL canisters are imported – mostly from China.
Above 7,000 m it is going to be very cold. That's where I would use Propane.
Below 7,000 m it will be warmer: that's where I would use propane/butane.
Not sure about these guys. They worry me. Do they have any idea of what they are talking about?

> Liquid fuel does not work above 6000 metres/19,700 feet so we don't use liquid fuel
> above basecamp or advanced basecamp."
That is total rubbish.
Nope, they have no idea at all. Turkeys.
(Mind you, I am not sure I want to be refilling a white gas stove at high altitude: my concentration might not be quite as good as I would like.)

cheers

[Dan Yeruski]

>Been there, done that.
See Canister Overheating
for the details.
Yeah, very loud bangs!

At what pressure do they burst.

[Jerry Adams]

"The secret here is to always screw the stove down and unscrew the stove fairly quickly. That way you pass through any possible leaking stage very quickly."

What happened on one canister is that even if totally unscrewed, it still leaked.

Low rate. Faint smell. Faint hiss.

I screwed it back on and off. Banged it…

I think this is rare based on my experience.

I just left stove screwed onto canister until canister was used up.

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