Cylinder Stove Specs

[Adam Thibault]

I'm making a version of the Ti Goat cylinder stove and am about do drill the intake holes and the feeder hole in the end plate, my question…

Does anyone have one of the Ti Goat stoves that they could measure the diameter of the intake holes/feeder hole and let me know? I don't want to rip off Ti Goat's work, however I would like to get the dimensions correct to make sure my stove has the proper air intake…

Many thanks!

[george carr]

Adam, I just made the same stove last week. I placed (5) 3/8" holes right below the feed door. As far as the door goes, I made that as large as the endplate would possibly allow so I wouldn't have to fight to feed the stove. With a 3" diameter, 9' pipe the stove drafted hard enough to shut the door on it's own!

[Josh Leavitt]

If you build it out of stainless it needs those holes, if you build it out of titanium, it does not need those holes. The pictures on the tigoat sight are old, they no longer have/need the holes. Good design in titanium negates their need.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Josh

That must be one of the most obscure comments I have read for a while! It sounds as though you are saying that a Ti stove does not need air inlet holes, but a SS one does. I am sure that is wrong, so could you please explain?

Cheerts

[Adam Thibault]

@George – nice work! How do you plan on doing the legs? I was thinking about riviting t-nuts to the end plates (much like the Ed T stoves) however I was also thinking it would be easy to just run a bolt throgh the end plate edge and stove body and lock it down on the other side with a wing nut…

@Josh – my end plates are titanium (snow peak plates) but my body will be SS (at least for now). Do you think I will need intake holes?

[george carr]

There is no difference between how a ti or ss stove will draft, all things being equal. The end plates on my stove are ti, as is the damper assembly. I'm not sure why the lower holes are gone on the newer tigoat stove, except to say it looks like the door might not be a 100% seal, letting some air draft through. When I close the door with the damper wide open the air being drawn in through the front acts like a magnet drawing the flame to the front of the firebox. The stove actually roars when the damper is open full.

@Adam, if you notice there are a couple of "extra" holes in the front. I actually bent some aluminum rod to insert in those holes to function as legs.

I'm already on version 2.0. I'm waiting on ss plates for the end, and will probably weld washers to the plates so I can insert threaded rod to hold everything together instead of cable and turnbuckles. I think this will go together a little faster. I also think I will weld legs similar to the ti goat legs to my endplates, but I have to get that far first.I'll be sure to update with pics when I get all my materials.

[Josh Leavitt]

Adam, With a stainless body, you will want air intake holes.

Rodger, this a simple and accurate statement, it is not obscure. Stainless stoves will need additional air intake holes, titanium stoves will not.

George, All things being equal, a titanium stove and a stainless stove, will not draft the same. They burn different, they draft different, they cook different, they heat different, they are just flat different. Of course the only thing I have to back this up, is designing the first roll up cylinder stove, and having hundreds of hours of burn time on them, so I could be wrong.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Josh

> Stainless stoves will need additional air intake holes, titanium stoves will not.
Well, I don't understand. I have a PhD in Physics, and I like to understand these things. Now, don't get me wrong: I place experimental data above theory every day. So if you see differences, I believe you.

My problem is that SS and Ti are both hard metals with poor thermal conductivity. I cannot understand how two stoves made of the different materials but otherwise identical in design can have different airflows and (therefore) different burning behaviour. Of course, it is possible that there are differences in the design between the two versions due to the difficulties in machining Ti.

So, basically, educate me! A few others might also be interested as well. Tell us all.

Cheers

[Josh Leavitt]

Rodger

I cant say too much, I've already put allot of money in other peoples pockets as is. The simple explanation is the thermal efficiency of Ti increases, exponentially, as it heats up. The thermal efficiency of SS decreases as it heats up. So one pours heat outward, while one tends to shield the heat inward. This affects the way they burn, which affects the input and output flows. One particular aspect is the tempature of the gas exiting, and at different elevations of the pipe. In a stainless steel stove(specifically one with a stainless pipe) the temps in the pipe can be several hundred degrees higher than those in a Ti pipe, from a Ti stove. Because of these temp differences, it matters where and how combustion air is introduced into the stove. So Ti has some physics working in its favor, but design plays an important role also. Rockets hanging out the end of a tent may look "cool", but they dont heat or cook well. They are just the children of poor design, and improperly utilized materials. Dot get me wrong, SS can work as a stove material, but there things to overcome. There is a SS cylinder stove, that will be comercially available, that at least from my first looks, appears to address some of these things. And where weight is not of the utmost concern, SS is an affordable option.

[george carr]

Josh, as Roger says, please educate me. How (or where) do you introduce fresh intake air in a ti stove, as opposed to the front intake of a ss version. Since I am not interested in building an all ti version (or a commercial version for that matter)I won't take offense if this data is considered "sensitive". Just curious since, like Adam, this is more of a DIY project for me than anything. I'm actually considering buying a "pro built" box stove. In that regard would I be better off with say an all ti version like Seek, or a SS version like Kifaru?

Also, I went with a longer pipe because I was concerned about exhaust smoke entering the vents on my tent (Golite Shangra La 5). How do I determine the optimal length of my flue pipe?

Like most others here, I'm always looking to learn something. Or as I used to say, "If you ain't learning, you're not paying attention". :)

[Adam Thibault]

Enough said for me Josh, I'll take your word for it!

Thanks so much for the insight!

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

I agree a flaming pipe looks cool and makes people think the stove is working but in reality the opposite is true.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Josh

You have done the experiments, I haven't. So in essence what you are saying is that my assumption that the SS and Ti metals will behave similarly was wrong. OK, fascinating stuff.

I understand about design issues in general of course. Been there many times. We look forward to future developments.

Cheers

[george carr]

As always(well maybe not always, j/k), Roger says it best. I am pretty happy with what I assembled and did not intend to hijack the thread. I got a clean burn with no flame or smoke that burned completely down to a nice little pile of ash.

Anything you choose to share is appreciated, Josh, anything you choose to hold onto is respectfully understood.

Adam, good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Kevin, maybe you could help answer my question – how do I determined optimal pipe length? What I'm doing (9' flue pipe) works, but I don't understand heat distribution in the pipe and will concede might not be the best setup. As I stated earlier, I was concerned about stove exaust in my tent. The peak of my shelter is 6' w/ vents near the top.

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

If you have a spark arrester , you really just need enough length to exit the tent plus a margin of safety, some of it depends on how high your stove is and how clean your burn is, however I would never recommend a 9 ft pipe in our tent that is about 6 ft tall. I would generally recommend about 7 ft.

[george carr]

Kevin, thanks for the reply. I am using a damper and spark arrestor. I'll take your advice and cut the length to 7' . I appreciate your help.

[Josh Leavitt]

George

It is as much about quantity, as it is about location. At least with the front of a cylinder stove. The additional internal heat of a SS stove causes excessive "over draft". To deal with this, larger pipes are helpful, as is the additional intake holes on the front of the stove. Adding additional air at the wrong place, in either Ti or SS, will create undesirable burn conditions. This is sometimes done through bad design, both accidentally, and intentionally.

Longer pipes are good. If built right, 9' pipes in 6' tents work just fine. Spark arresters plug up, and I dont reccomend them, they can actually be dangerous. Prudent use of a good damper, with a long pipe, is your best bet.

To answer your question about which stove, I would say neither. While I am of course biased, scientificly speaking, the K-stoves suck. The other stove is just a K-stove knock off, at least by design. Though it is at least Ti. I am probably not giving enough credit to the damper design though, great improvement, based off one purchased from TiGoat. But its not balanced, or properly adjustable.

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

Not a knock of, the only real similarity is using threaded rods. Size, seams , door and damper are much different. The damper was not based as you said , in fact it is much different, in shape, size and construction, it looks like a real damper on a regular stove.

[george carr]

Josh and Kevin, I appreciate both of your input. I am aware of both of your backgrounds on the subject of stove design (or at least who you are and where you came from). I also know that sometime between now and September I will be buying a box stove b/c I believe it will be better for cooking and hot tenting next winter than the cylinder stoves I have been tinkering with. If either or both would like to address some basics for a guy like me to look for in stove design either here or in a pm I welcome it. I have heard in other places that spark arrestors are a bad idea, and I will follow that advice. I think I'll keep tinkering with pipe length, since there seems to be no concensus and so far I guess I've been lucky with my chosen length. I will say that I'm a little confused by "if they are built right". My pipe is .005 ss shim, 12×108, with a ti goat end ring and ti goat ti damper in the 3.125 size. I assuming you mean not so much about rolling the pipe as much as damper, etc.

I'm of the same school as Roger – I like to know why what I'm doing should or shouldn't be working, even if it is :). What I don't want to do is throw gasoline on a fire and cause two respected members here to feel like they have to defend their positions and or reputations.

I see that since I am no longer a member (sorry, not getting into that discussion)there doesn't seem to be a pm address in my profile. I am at [email protected] .

[Josh Leavitt]

George

Buy as you like, I have nothing to gain or loose either way. The consequences and rewards are all yours.

Kevin
So you bought that TiGoat damper, while you were developing your stove, just for fun? Kinda like Ed's titanium purchases from TiGoat? At least you did not get a discount.

Carbon fiber tent stakes(verbatum) ring a bell?

Versa port, err a versa somthing, ring a bell?

I can go on and on.

The threaded leg thing is sort of the defining feature of a K-stove.

What makes you stand out? You could not even make the only defining and some what origonal thought you had, the bottomless/expandable stove, work. For an engineering and design fee of $1, I will make that concept work for you. Your customers come out on top, and I get to demonstrate that you dont know what you are talking about. The $1 can be paypaled to [email protected]

When you actually innovate something, I might give you some credit, until then, you are no better than the hoards of Asian factories churning out poorly interpreted american innovation, that they dont truly understand. You should have called your stoves Bulin.

Isn't there some sort of BPL rule, or precedent, about boycotting people like this? Oh yeah, never mind ;-)

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

But we bought the damper because a customer did not like something specific about it and mentioned it to us, so we took a look. I in fact have never used the damper and have no idea where it even is.

Is not some sort of threading device used on the roll up it goat stoves. Did Ed not publish a roll up stove in 2002 well before ti goat came out with one.?

There are a lot of original concepts in our gear, so before you go on the attack perhaps you should look at yourself.

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

We originally had an interchangeable vent / stove jack due to customer suggestion. We moved on to a dedicated vent and stove jack ( that can close) last fall. The concept, while having some merit was to fiddly for us. It is still available on the three person, but the rest have both. The fact of the matter was, almost everyone was using the tents specifically with stoves, so the additional flexibility had little value for us.

Companies should listen to their customers, and try to integrate features customers suggest, we do it often, it's really a part of R&D. We also strive for continuous improvements, such as changing the orientation and cuts of our liners to vertical with a slightly extreme cat cut to result in a tight liner with a dedicated air space that results in very little loss of space.

When companies are young they try different things, for instance dwr tents, but then they move on, it's a natural progression. We have not attempted to blatantly build our business on the back of another vendors forum as some reportedly have.

We communicate openly, and honestly with customers and perspective customers and try to give them the best solution that works for their intended usage. In fact, I have even recommended other tents and stoves on occassion, when I feel our product does not meet a certain feature they desire the most. An example would be that I often say if lightweight is your primary concern, then a cylinder stove is what you will be most happy with. We have even shown our tents to folks that just wanted to build their own and adviced them on the benefits of one seam orientation vs another. We don't pretend to have a patent on a lightweight tipi, nor do we pretend to have some specific guarded knowledge. What we do have is experience in building tents and stoves , with a variety of features and seam orientations combined with very experienced seamstresses, and talented metal workers. We couple that with the fact that we really really strive to go above and beyond on customer service. If you are our customer, we will listen to your suggestions, we will advise you appropriately, we will take care of you to insure enjoyable backcountry outings.

[Josh Leavitt]

Kevin

No, Ed did not publish a roll up stove in 2002, before TiGoat. I suggest you get your facts straight. As ussual, you dont know what you are talking about. Ed has had a number of cylinder stove designs, and the early ones were all made from cylinder containers, and did not roll up. And none of that would change the fact that he used an industry discount, to purchase materials from TiGoat, to go into business, building stoves for you.

So your stove boots were what dimensions? And how did you come to that?

Come on, its not like people were waiting for 2 years to get a product, so you saw a niche to fill, because people wanted them. When TiGoat went into business, it was done implicitly with a finger in the air to the competition, and a stark contrast in what was offered. If you stood out in some way shape or form, or at least were not so passive in your aggresion, I might respect that.

I am almost always the first to offer a hand to new guys, which is why I have not said much until now. And as for the new guy thing, I'd been in the outdoor industry awhile when I was getting my guides, rooms, and meals comped in Ouray, in 1998, just to put things into "your" realm. I built my first conical tent in spinaker, in 1994, around the same time I sewed my first tarp on an industrial machine. You've been doing this how long?

I did not really read your post, you stand out how?

Do your customers want to know how to make a bottomless stove work?

If your customers told you to jump off a bridge………

Also, I'm dying to know, did you read any trappers journals before you moved from Texas to Colorado?

[Josh Leavitt]

I forgot, I sewed my first DWR tent in '94(home machine), nothing new, they still get sewn to this day. That is a matter of mass market, verses more specialized user groups.

And attempting to impugn me on my bad behavior, especially that performed on other forums, wont get you far. I wear it like a jacket, it cold weather. Notice how things got quiet, and its just you and me ;-)

[Josh Leavitt]

Kevin

One last question: I see that you are doing a tent out of heavier fabric, and a cone stove. You'ld be cool with me doing tents out of heavier fabric, along with a cone stove stove, right?

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