On the Hunt for an SUL Bag

[Miles Barger]

Due to some interesting circumstances, I'm currently without a compact, (S)UL sleeping bag. Here's what I'm looking for:

-Mainly for summer use in Rocky Mountains, i.e. right around freezing, perhaps pushed to shoulder seasons with Cocoon/Micropuff jacket and/or pants.
-Accommodates a thin (46" shoulder girth) side-sleeper who tosses just a bit.
-Stuffs small, letting me put a long weekend in my soon-to-arrive MLD Revelation.
-And, of course, is as light as possible. This is BPL, after all.

I seem to have narrowed things down to 4 choices.
1. Western Mountaineering Summerlite. Large enough for me. A conservative 32F (2"). Hood included. No drafts. The most traditional choice. BUT could be lighter at 19oz.
2. Jacks R Better No Sniveller. Large enough. 30F (2"+). Serape mode, which, if used in lieu of a insulating top, could be like -10oz. Still, a bit heavy at 20oz and, because its made to be usable by hammockers, isn't streamlined for an alpine loving ground dweller.
3. Arc Ghost. 32F (2"). Very light at 14oz. My main concern is it being too small for a side-sleeper, especially if I wanted to push the bag below the rated temp with Cocoon tops and bottoms. Perhaps a 3rd strap right below the shoulders for drafts and an ounce of overfill on the hip area to prevent shifting would help?
4. Arc Specialist. 32F (1.75"). Light at 16oz. I worry that this bag would not be as warm as the Ghost, and I'm not sure that I would need the additional girth. If not, I'd rather save 2oz and $30.

Any suggestions about these choices or others that I haven't considered are very appreciated.

[Richard Nelridge]

Also look at the Feathered Friends Vireo which can be purchased as light as 16oz. Mine is a shorter bag with 2oz of overfill and 800+ down. It is an extended half bag without a zipper. Down can be moved in the baffles and has varying lofts of down in the baffles; it is designed to be used with a high loft jacket and the additional optional Volant Hood.

Rich

[Doug Johnson]

Hi Miles,

I've got a No Sniveler and an Arc Ghost. Review of the Ghost is posted on the site- Spotlite of the No Sniveler is up as well.

The No Sniveler is definitely warmer and more versatile. It also has an optional pad attachment for ground sleeping. I'm going to get it out this weekend but initial outcomes are good.

The Ghost is not as warm. That said, I use the Cocoon top and bottom to push it to pretty cold tems. I'm a side sleeper too and I find this bag to be wide enough for me but without a whole lot of extra space. For me an Arc Edge would be too narrow. These days, I use the Ghost with a bivy unless it's really warm. The bivy cuts the breeae issue that I deal with because I thrash when I sleep.

The Arc Specialist is very interesting to me. That way I could layer a Cocoon top and a belay jacket and REALLY push the bag.

These are all great bags- doubt if you can go wrong here!

Doug

[Adam Rothermich]

I've been tossing around the idea of making a quilt to save some money. The biggest dilemma I'm having is the dimensions. I'm about 6' and 175-180 lbs, side sleeper, toss around a bit though. Is the width of the No Sniveller (48") enough to keep most drafts out?
Eventually I plan on getting a Ti Goat bivy to help, but for now it will be used alone w/ a GG Nightlight Torso.
Sorry for the blatant thread-jacking, but it kind of pertains to your original question (enough that I don't feel too bad asking at least).

Adam

[Douglas Frick]

>I'm about 6' and 175-180 lbs, side sleeper, toss around a bit though. Is the width of the No Sniveller (48") enough to keep most drafts out?

I have a JRB Nest (20.4 oz; same size as the No Sniveller), I'm 6'2" and 230 pounds with a 60" chest/arm girth, and I toss around a bit too. It's _almost_ big enough for me, so I'm going to either add Quilt Wings or get the Pad Converter. Since your girth is much less it should be fine as-is. (Quilt Wings add only 0.3 oz.)

[Don Wilson]

Miles –

You didn't mention your height, but I'll assume less than 6 feet since you listed the weight of the regular length Summerlite.

I love the Summerlite. Superb bag for the weight. I am also a side sleeper, and I flop around alot, so I'm not too fond of most top bags and quilts. With some extra insulation you can push the Summerlite to some pretty chilly temps. And I like that it has a full zip and is baffled. Hard to find in a sub 20 ounce bag.

I've recently been reviewing the Marmot Atom – also very nice. Listed at only 16 ounces for the regular length. I've pushed my Atom below freezing with no problem, although the Marmot spec is 40 degrees F. Really low volume when stuffed.

But if push came to shove, I'd choose the Summerlite over the Atom.

Don

[Brett .]

The FF mentioned in this thread are great bags and someday I will buy the RockWren.. But for now I can suggest an unconventional sleep system for 2 people travelling in pairs; sharing a bag. This also applies to those people who find mummy bags too constrictive and/or wish they could wear more layers to push the bag to a temperature lower than rated. Let's start by looking at the Feathered friends Viero for example; it has the following widths and stats..
Viero, Girth(shoulders/hips/feet): 64"/48"/38", 45'F, 17oz

One of their Wide bags, suggested for 'two person' use..
Sandpiper, Girth: 64/61/48 , 40'F, 36oz

But with a Montbell super stretch long you can have the both of both stats, wider than the FF single and lighter than the FF double..
Montbell #7L, Girth 56"to75"/not listed/47"to63", 50'F, 18oz
Notice the minimum girth before stretching is smaller than even the FF single, because the inner(not outer) baffle eliminates problematic dead airspace in the bag, yet it stretches larger than even the "two people" FF bag. I have used it in this configuration; and its fun. :)

This is not intended to disparage FF at all; FF and WM are the best bags in the world IMO, and when I can afford a RockWren I am definitely going to buy one! Im just suggesting an 18oz bag with room to share, or room to layer and push down in temp. How far I don't know, but a Patagonia MicroPuff top and bottom layer, or Montbell Thermawrap layer, or BMW Cocoon layer set should make a huge difference.

Oh, and the #7L is $169 now at Prolite.com, the Sandpiper starts at $329.

Ben, I know.. I'm pimpin' MB again..

[Aaron Sorensen]

Miles,
I see that you like MLD products. Why not wait for another week and get the "Devotion 38, @ 14.8 oz".

You are a SUL hiker and obviously would know what to wear with the bag to keep warm at night. If you're looking to get down to 32*, I would also assume that you have a nice down jacket that would work.

[Miles Barger]

Richard – thanks for the Vireo/jacket combo suggestion. I hadn't considered that option and am still not sure how I feel about it, but it's certainly something to think about.

Doug J. – It's great to hear from someone who has used both the No Sniveller and the Ghost! From your picture, you look around my size, so the information is very much appreciated. If I end up with the Arc Specialist, I'll let you know how it goes.

Adam – The idea of making my own quilt is attractive: lower cost, just what I want, and, most importantly, a great feeling of accomplishment. However, I'm not much of a sewer, and handling high fill power down is not something that I look forward to. I hope someone can help you figure out what dimensions are right for you. Maybe you could make yourself a prototype out of some cheapy fabric first?

Douglas F. – Thanks for the info.

Don – I'm 5'11", 145lbs. It's good to hear that the Summerlite's range can be stretched.

Brett – I admire your love for Montbell's SS system! Not quite what I'm looking for, but good to remember.

Aaron – I find Ron's products to be intriguing, admire his willingness to stand firmly in the SUL camp, and always love to see small cottage comapanies. I've emailed back and forth with him and spoken to him a few times, and he has always been very pleasant. So, yes, I'd like to support his business. But… from experience, I'd have to say that I'll be quite surprised if the new Devotion bags are available in a week. I'm definitely considering the 38, but the difference between not-quite-40 and right-below-freezing is bothering me a bit. I'm just not sure that I'd be comfortable with a ~40F bag around the treeline in the Rockies, even in the summer, despite the fact that I do know what to wear to keep warm. I'm also not so sure that I'm sold on the top-bag concept. Despite the fact that the top can be somewhat unzipped and the drawstring foot can be opened, I think that a variable girth or full-zip would offer more flexibility.

Thanks all–keep 'em coming.

[Aaron Sorensen]

Alright,
I hate to say that I also agree about the MLD temp rating for what you are looking for.

As much as I would love to say get the atom, for only 4 ounces more, the summerlite with it's baffles is well worth the extra 4 oz.

This of course is only if you don't go for the quilt.
I love my quilts and will never buy a bag again, unless I am in the need for something to go down to 0*.
Good luck.
I would keeping looking at what other people have to say about being your size and being a side sleeper. If a quilt can suit your purposes it will save you some good weight.

You can also go for the Rab top bag at 14.9 ounces and 32* rating. Mandatorygear.com has them for just over $200.

[ryan g]

I'm also in the market for SUL ~30 deg bag/quilt. I've looked at all of the above, but may hold out for the Cocoon 180 (19.6 oz), to be released (I think?) this spring. I don't think BMW publishes degree ratings, but this is what Ryan Jordan used in the Arctic, if I'm reading the site correctly. I assume it could handle 3-season use in the Rockies.

[Miles Barger]

I've thought about the 180. A few things that are leading me away and that you might want to think about:

-I remember hearing something about pre-ordering the new cocoon line in November or December. Hasn't happened. I'm very remiss to trust any dates or deadlines from BMW. This is not really a criticism, as I know that BMW's business model is unique. If you don't mind waiting a long time, this point is moot.
-The bags seem to be designed for use with a Cocoon (or similar) top and bottom. I like the idea a lot, but I'd like to know more about the loft of the bag, i.e. is it necessary to wear an insulated top and bottom to get below 40F?
-Synthetics are great, and if you're going to be in the kind of weather (Arctic in June, for instance) where water is a major concern, then right on. I'm not, so I'm more inclined to skip the extra bulk in my pack.

Still, I'll be interested to hear more. If the bulk increase was minimal, the 180 was good down to ~32F, and I could get one of the darn things by mid-April, I might just be tempted. You hearing this Ryan?

[David Wills]

BMW says it has 180g/ sq m of insulation. I believe that translates to 5.4 oz/ sq yd, probably 2 layers of the 2.7 oz delta used in other applications. That gives it a clo of (5.4 * .68) = 3.67 for those who measure with that. fanatic fringe has a delta quilt with 2 layers that weighs 22.5 oz, probably with the same weight of insulation, rated to 30*F and should be easily available. I have heard you have to quilt the yarn loops in FF quilts though. Either one should keep you warm below 40 without assistance from insulated clothes.

[Stephen Nelson]

I am also in the market for a lighter bag. I am totaliy down with arc concept, but I am not sure which product best suits me. I like the MLD design, but I have read here on BPL about the bad combination of super high fill power down and high humdity-which is the norm in my neck of the woods. Is the Arc Edge warm enough for temps down into the 30s with a jacket and pants? I am also interested in the Arc Specialist, has any one had any experience with it?

I also want some flexibility in my sysytems. I want something that isn't too warm for those warmer nights on the AT. This is what makes and arc bag sound nice, as it can be opened up. But I would like one big enough to fit around ( or small enough to fit inside i.e Arc Edge) my 30 degree sleeping bag if I ever wanted to do something in colder temperatures. Right now the Arc Edge and the no sniveler are looking very good to me. I say the nos sniveler because of the way I sleep, just having some sleeves would be nice. I am about 6'1" and about 190lbs. I typically sleep on my stomach with my arms up under my head. Does anybody know how these bags perform? thanks

[Robert Recinos]

I have an Arc Specialist I tested it out in my front yard as soon I got it. I used my Nano bivy and GG pad. I took a thermometer out with me, the temp got down to 33 deg. around 3am. I was warm. I started out with running shorts with thin layer of polar tec pants and a polar tec thin top, and a fleece hat. As the night progressed I had to remove my polar tec pants cuz I was to hot. So long story short. I was warm with just shorts, top, and hat. The bag performed very well. About side sleepers. I sleep in any postion you can think of all night, the bag fit my body great in any postion. The adjustable girth technique is awesome. By the way I'm 6' 185 lbs.

[Miles Barger]

Robert,
Thanks for the info! Your experience certainly makes the Specialist very appealing to me.

Do you generally sleep warm, cold, or medium? Did you get any overfill or custom options on your bag?

[Robert Recinos]

I guess you I say I'm a medium sleeper. My house is at 65 deg. and just wear pants and a short sleeve shirt on and I'm comfortable. The only custom options I had was that the specialist comes in size 5' 10" or 6' 5" and since I'm 6' I told them that I didn't need the extra 5". So they took the 5' 10" model and added a baffle or two to make it for my height. I can still lay flat and put my head in bag (for really cold days) and still be comfortable. Plus if your not satisfied with the bag they have a 30 day return policy. It took about a month to get my bag. Oh I forgot to mention. During my test I had socks on and my feet were good it would of been better if I placed my pack under it insted of the cold ground.

[Stephen Nelson]

you sound almost exactly like me, I'm glad to hear that that worked out for you. what was the total cost of those modifications? Less than the $369 of the long I should hope. Thanks

[Robert Recinos]

total cost with taxes and shipping was $360, but worth it IMO

[Stephen Nelson]

you are of most help. thank you

[Stephen Nelson]

and thanks for what you did for me in the military too. I appreciate your sacrafice(s).

[Miles Barger]

Well, some first hand reviews + a great price ($200) have led me to giving the Marmot Atom a try. It's temp. rating is 40F, I know… but I've seen numerous reviews from around the net as well as some tales from users here that the bag can go closer to (if not below) freezing, especially while wearing all your hiking clothes (which I almost always do). Also, it has slightly wider measurements, so adding extra layers/tossing and turning should work out better. As far as the short zipper thing… well, we'll see. Did I mention I found it for only $200?!

In any case, I'm going to give it a try. If it doesn't work, I'll send it back from whence it came and start again. If it does, I'll let everyone know. Thanks for all the advice.

[David Passey]

I own the atom. I've used it down to mid 30s, with light base layers (I sleep cold), and was perfectly toasty. I think it's a great bag–really quite roomy. I've got the atom and the wm highlite, and I lean toward to the atom, primary b/c I find it more roomy.

[Johnathan White]

I own the Atom as well and will never replace it until it plain wears out! I have used it 16 times in temps from 60 degrees to 33. During the 33 degree night (Olympic National Park's Hoh River Trail) in a Tarptent Virga II, all netting in front open, I had on a thin (coolmax) base layer and was ok. I never woke up that night due to chill. I have experienced absolutely no loss of loft, washed it once in it's lifetime 4 trips ago, no threads coming lose or breaking, and also no degredation of the Pertex Quantum shell.

[Johnathan White]

Oh I forgot to mention IMHO, it has a hood that I do not think has been matched for comfort on the open market yet. SOOOOO COMFY!

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