Wind Pants not as popular as wind shirt?

thought this thread on wind pants?

So for low enough temps when its possibility of rain, in a fairly narrow range, of 30F-40F, I'll be wearing some wear-all-day softshell waterproofs with side vents. Wore them this week for local short walking in heavy rain. However, it can't be much above 40F and active as simply too warm and where windpants kick on. Can't bike in them, too baggy. Very breathable and comfy and really wear-all-day contexts which requires it to be cool damp.

http://paramo.co.uk/en-gb/garments/detail/index.php?pgc=NIKWAXANALOGYLIGHTTROUSERSVELEZADVENTUREMENS

I don't know why some folks use meaningless terms like "shoulder season" in BPL. Its the temperature which is the only meaningful language. USA is huge, a cold winter in SoCal is nothing like a cold winter in say Chicago. If you were to ask my windpants when they'd be packed, its might be for a day in summer in San Francisco, when that afternoon ocean-cold wind kicks in and the shorts required at 90F in the sun of noon then aren't enough for the 56F at 5pm with damp fog blowing past.

eric said "all softshell pants and many hiking pants are windproof anyways these days …."

exactly why my wind pants are seeing far less duty these day :)

Mike, hiking pants are very wind resistant but anything also waterproof aren't usually breathable enough. Often just adding a proofed Pertex overlayer is enough to shed a bit more rain and raise the temps of the layer under to keep them dry enough. So that's a few contexts windpants still have uses, to boost a little some hiking pants, to boost a little for shorts. My windpants are 4oz, and like you say mine aren't used much but they are packed many many times as a "just a bit more" layer.

The only softshell pants I have happen to be waterproof.

no official testing, but the DWR on my Rock Guides appears to be in the same ballpark as my Montbell windpants- so not much to gain, if I'm in shorts however than definitely some advantages to pants that shed some moisture

my wind pants are also in that 4 oz range (and pack VERY small) so I definitely see some potential in packing them when in shorts or conversely if I'm in tights snowshoeing or skiing

i think the OP was asking why people dont pack windpants …

considering that many people wear hiking pants or softshell pants that are windproof and DWRed anyways, then you likely dont need em for wind protection unlike the upper body where people often wear a base layer and maybe a light fleece/shirt

some people as indicated may wear em for additional warmth in static/semi active situations … but a pair of light rain paints will work as well and likely be more versatile

also while some people might find windpants durable enough for their own uses … it all depends what you do … i wouldnt want to scramble rough rock in em as the leg see quite a bit of abrasion, my 1.3 oz/yd windshirt developed pinholes after a few days out on the rock …

Eric. It all depends on the context. I had posted earlier if the temperature conditions warrant bringing windproof pants, and if the context warrant tough-wearing, I have some very tough comfortable windproof pants, Paramo Fuera, full-length venting and boot-compatible.
http://paramo.co.uk/en-gb/garments/detail/index.php?pgc=NIKWAXWINDPROOFTROUSERSFUERAUNISEX

In the UK these are the only pants of that type – tough windproof. In USA I don't know the equivalent make. Its one of those buy-once-in-a-lifetime items.

Relative to much of my outdoor gear, quite low cost and appropriate to sacrifice to the rocks more than say my softshell pants which are roughly 3x the cost.

The weight of these, 10oz, due to the many zips and the tough fabric makes them never packed on multi-day hikes but just if I'm doing a day hike and conditions appropriate. Not waterproof but anything waterproof is too warm >60F, its just a protection booster. You could if you were describing them call them softshell but really its just thicker windpants.

Similarly for the upper body, if the context warrants a tough windshirt I actually own 3 all tough material, a smock, a jacket, and a venting jacket, the Paramo Fuera Smock, Paramo Fuera Peak (no longer made), and Paramo Fuera Ascent, bought of many years apart. The smock I found annoying, the Peak is lighter and the Ascent is more of a mountain all-day windshirt. The fabric is so thick and tough its absolutely what you'd use scrambling around rocks as in this video

Some thread resurrection here, but I've been doing some thinking lately.

Like Eric, I normally wear light-colored softshells as long as the highs are lower than around 65-70 (often in the mountains). Any warmer, and I'm much more comfortable in shorts.

As such, when the weather patterns dictate that I'll usually be hiking in shorts, it'd be nice to have something warmer to wear in the early mornings, evenings and if bad weather moves in.

Typically, I'd just be carrying around softshells in my backpack, but that's a lot of unnecessary weight to be carrying, if the weather for the entire trip appears to have highs that dictate mostly hiking in shorts.

I think this is where wind pants are most useful, as Nigel has already stated. When you're typically preferring to hike in shorts, but need some insulation in the early mornings or late evenings (or unexpected large weather shifts). I'm often in more manageable terrain during these times (off ridgelines/talus fields/etc.), or even in camp, so wind pants durability isn't much of a drawback.

So, this would typically be, extended highs above 70 degrees (80s and 90s included) during the day, but in a mountain or marine climate, where cold winds/rain are quite possible in the early and late hours.

I'd like to experiment again with regular hiking pants used when hiking in these temperatures, but based on past experiences, I'll likely be more comfortable hiking in shorts and carrying the extra 3oz for windpants to prevent chills in the early/late hours, or in unexpected short-duration bad weather.

"….65-70 …." if it is dry then it about 40F-50F for me. My avatar image shows where my cold-feeling bits are, and its not my legs.

If its wet then raise the temps, the water is still at a temp it is 1000ft up and is conducting a cold temp to the skin than the local air temp so if its wet it might be say 50-60F for windpants. Even if its raining I sweat in anything other than bare legs above 60F. I tried about 3 winters back covering the legs and under-insulating the torso and I got sweaty legs and felt cold in the core at the same time.

When I grew up as a child in English school many decades ago, we had to wear shorts all year round til aged 12, so I think the cold sensors just got disabled. I was also brought up in the hills and so often active and I reckon a lot of heat is made in strong leg muscles. If I'm inactive then my legs will radiate heat out so I need warm pants for inactive.

The problem becomes somewhat reversed in the 0F-20F type range, when active the blood is pumping through the legs and makes my core shiver no matter what is on the core, and no matter how fast I move, but when inactive the blood flow in the legs reduces so I can get away with less insulation on the legs inactive than active.

Weird, but entirely evidence-based experience. Others the same?

Nigel, sounds like your experiences with softshells are with the heavier weight ones? Which models have you tried/owned? There's not a lot of them on the market, so they're not easy to find. The ones I've used tend to have a much higher temperature range. They weigh around 10-11oz in a medium-ish size.

I'll have to experiment with the warm legs, cold body thing. But I tend to have pretty warm legs as well. I could probably do shorts down to around 40-50 degrees in the wind as long as I'm on the move. But, the benefits of softshells, is that they're comfortable on the move up to around 65 degrees in the sun in calm weather, and you don't need to layer up when you stop or slow down in colder temperatures. Less hassle and fuss, messing with layers.

I also tend to wear shorts a little longer into the season (and a little earlier) than most folks. I also tend to sleep a little on the warmer side than most, my guess is the two are related (thermostat set a touch higher).

Adding wind pants w/ shorts (as I mention above) can be a useful strategy, but equally effective imo is using lighter soft shell pants- if the weather is conducive to pants.

Another consideration, for me anyways, is what is going to be more useful to carry when wearing shorts- my wind pants (4.8 oz) or my Cap 4 bottoms (6.2 oz)- usually the Cap 4's get the nod as they provide more warmth w/ just a small weight penalty

"I also tend to wear shorts a little longer into the season (and a little earlier) than most folks. I also tend to sleep a little on the warmer side than most, my guess is the two are related (thermostat set a touch higher)."

Goes to show how we're all different. I don't think awake and asleep thermostats run parallel for everyone. I need a lot more insulation when I sleep than others particularly on the legs.

"Another consideration, for me anyways, is what is going to be more useful to carry when wearing shorts- my wind pants (4.8 oz) or my Cap 4 bottoms (6.2 oz)- usually the Cap 4's get the nod as they provide more warmth w/ just a small weight penalty"

SO my legs are the most forgiving when active so i tend to give them the least gear attention, but I did a very successful multi-day outdoors trip in early cool damp spring using some Paramo Cambia longjohns which have a variable insulation, little/more due to a weave which has recesses on one side, smooth on the other side, if you have the holes facing skin it traps more heat than the smooth side. It works. I then layer with waterproofs for rain. A variation on that would be the longjohns under windpants if its not raining. I'd not combine rain with windpants over anything which soaked up water obviously so over bare legs which dry quickly or over non-absorbant trousers to give them a bit longer till wetting out is more common.

Softshell pants, I'd find them too inflexible, I'd be carrying them when active and yet when inactive they're not that warm? I've not tried an outdoors trip with this combination but my guess is the lightly insulated longjohns, a thin windpant and a shell will pack less on average?

yeah we're all different it sure seems :)

I don't pack rain pants anymore- they were rarely used, don't breathe very well and wet legs when on the move have never been a problem for me

I think wind pants w/ a good DWR would suffice in most instances, even if they wet out you'd still be warmer w/ them on- they also dry very quickly

> Softshell pants, I'd find them too inflexible, I'd be
> carrying them when active and yet when inactive they're
> not that warm? I've not tried an outdoors trip with this
> combination but my guess is the lightly insulated
> longjohns, a thin windpant and a shell will pack less on
> average?

I'd suggest giving the lightweight ones a try, Nigel. Anything in the 11oz range would be ideal. Definitely less than 14oz. As long as I can securely roll them up above the knee, I've never felt the need to remove them, as long as I gauge the trip's temperatures correctly.

I like the old school nylon windpants with full length zippers .

I use my REI Kimtah eVent rainpants as winter windpants.

Works great with heavy weight polyester long johns and on bitter cold days I wear fleece pants over the long johns.

No sense carrying 2 pair of pants for wind and rain.

EDIT:
My last statement above precisely states the BPL ideal of multi-use items. As I've said before, a specialized "wind shirt" or "wind pants" never made much sense to me, especially after eVent came out.
WPB rain gear is SAFETY gear and it is multiple use gear as well. I have never seen a specialized wind shirt as true safety gear, gear which could protect a hiker from rain or wet snow.

If my REI polyester Sahara pants and LS Sahara shirt ain't enough to protect me from cold wind then on go the WPB gear.

I use windpants instead of rain pants.

I wear them more in camp or on breaks when i'm not generating as much heat, especially good in the AM on cold mornings to add a little warmth.
Adding some warmth to the legs does improve your overall temperature, maybe not as much as top layers, but they do contribute.

I wear mine at laundry time, whether it be in town or on the trail and there are other people around.

They can act as a backup when you rip the bottom out of your hiking pants from glizzanding, a snag or fall.

I consider them worth the extra 4 ounces.

I remember hiking with one guy along the AT in the Smokies. It was late winter and he was thru hiking in shorts. He had been wearing his windpants most of every day and planned on continuing until it got warm enough to wear just the shorts.

They had no sign of wear that I could see.

I had a pair of montane featherlites. They were comfortable to hike in, even in warmer temps. Nice and silky on the skin and definitely light. the durability, particularly in the seat and knees, left something to be desired. After only one trip I got little micro holes just from sitting down (carefully) on rocks or tree stumps or kneeling down to get water or setup camp. The fabric was also super slick so if camp was anything but perfectly flat it was a challenge to stay on my pad and almost comical inside and equally slick sleeping bag. Lastly if the wind was really chilly the fabric clinging directly on the skin was not great. Having a base layer underneath was way better but it was not ever cold enough for that.

Regular supplex hiking pants for me.

Here in the East they would get shredded by the underbrush nearly instantly. And that's not going to do you any good for wind protection.

Don’t know about back east, but I actually prefer them here. In fact, I found about the ones I use on a thread on this very site.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=64702

If you look at this handy-dandy-link, you can see me using them in the urban setting on the shoulder of a 13k ft peak. ;)

Not everyone hikes through dense underbrush.
The ultralight ones are very fragile, but you can get heavier wind pants that are more durable than regular hiking pants and lighter. The dense weave when it's in the 7-10 oz range is really sturdy. In RC's artcile on bushwhacking trousers, he recommended heavier thrift store wind pants.

Here's a pic of me wearing my Montbell Dynamo Windpants on an urban ~10,000' peak a few weeks ago. Wore them the entire day.

The whole UL "revolution" is based on thinking outside the box. Using wind pants is one of those outside the box sort of concepts, just like using windshirts. I would be cautious about throwing out a whole concept on the basis of one attribute.

I think the best scenario for wind pants is when they are used with super light running shorts. Durability is an issue, but they are light. You do have to pay attention where you sit and watch for brush and sharp rocks.

My personal preference is for typical Supplex nylon zip off pants. If it is cold and windy in my pasty of the world, it is usually raining too, so rain pants also fill that slot.

It would be good if wind pants were offered in light colors— all the ones I have seen are black. That would allow better use for sun and bug protection, which is something you would want if your primary bottom choice is running shorts.

My experience is that the simpler unlined pull-on style nylon and polyester running pants are about 6 ounces. The super light versions like Montane and Montbell are more like 4oz, IIRC.

I checked one pair of REI running shorts that have a liner brief and pockets and they weigh 4.8oz. Ex Officio zip offs with brief liners are 13.8oz. Typical zip-offs run 11-14oz without belt or brief.

So it looks to me like there can be a significant weight savings, IF you wear running shorts and IF you are willing to out up with the compromises in durability.

Here on BPL, Patagonia Houdini wind shirt is king of the hill. What would be the Houdini equivalent in wind pants?

For me its Montane Featherlite Wind Pants.

"What would be the Houdini equivalent in wind pants?"

Houdini wind pants! http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/houdini-pants?p=24130-0

Montane is good. There are dancer's warm-up pants for a really cheap but effective alternative (see http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=64702). Or just get unlined runner's wind pants for a tougher, slightly heavier (about 6oz) alternative.