tarp, bivy, ground cloth vs. UL tent weight/cost analysis

"not really … some tents can be used fly only if you so desire … so basicaly a tarp .."

Still very heavy that way. The Copper Spur in Fly only mode is 1 lb 14oz.

I think others have hit on it but I believe Tarping is really about

Tarp/Bivy Pros

1] Reduced Weight
2] Great connection to the outdoors
3] Easier entry/exit
4] Flexible pitch options
5] Less expensive
6] Optional Bivy only makes most nights very easy. Keep your sleeping bag inside the Bivy. When you arrive at camp you throw down the Bivy and your done.
7] Less condensation issues in humid climates

Tent Pros

1] Convenience of a single do it all shelter
2] May be easier to get perfect pitch

"Tarp/Bivy Pros"

That's a good summation, but it bears even more relevance given the OP's marital situation. Like many, I'm married to someone who, while she enjoys the outdoors, prefers it mainly in small doses, with a shower, hot meal(s) and bed each day.

Since I also have kids, and our family is engaged in plenty of other activities/trips, there is no way I'm able to take off for any length of time just to "do my thing". That means the (solo) trips I do go on are highly compressed 3 night/4 day, almost 24 hr affairs, where I'm literally moving all day. I also happen to exclusively hike/fish the high Sierra, where no matter how deep you are, you're not really more than 1 day (15+ miles) away from a TH.

OK, so add it up: what do I really need to bring if at most I'm only spending 3 nights and can bail at any point? Do I need a nice ground cover, or can I sleep on the rocks/grass? (I bring window shrink rap.) Same question of pad – what exactly do I need, if anything? Tarp/bivy? I bring an oversized tarp, sans bug netting, but don't put it up unless it's wet.

My TH quilt has good DWR, so I don't care if I get some dew on it. Besides, I'm out of there shortly anyway – it will have plenty of time to dry. Bug protection – jeez, I've got enough heavy duty sunscreen on to block insects by itself, but 100% DEET works pretty darn good. Oh, did I mention I'm only out for 4 days, so I can wash that stuff off when I'm done?

Same analysis with food – we cook up a storm @ home, but on the trail, I can easily get by with my own GORP, jerky and sweets for 3.5 days. (I eat a huge prepped meal before starting, and of course scarf down @ the end.)

As with anything, your gear needs to fit the particular situation. If you're young & going on a 30+ day thru hike, then you need to think longer term. Ironically, the older you get and the more responsibilities you have, you actually have the luxury of thinking in a very short time frame.

i think some of those are myths

reduced weight … depends on the setup … i suspect if you add all the extras the difference wont be that great … not to mention you can get very light tents these days

easier entry … not if yr using a bivy

less expensive … not if yr going cuben for the weight advantage and want extra options

condensation … id say yr worst off in humid climates if yr using a bivy … look up bivy condensation issues, there have been several threads on it

also as mentioned, tents have bug protection (which youll need to get extras or go with a restrictive bivy for with tarps), theyll add warmth in adverse environments, and are often less fussy to pitch then a tarp with the extras

im not saying one is right or wrong … but once you try to become "tent like" with a tarp is there any real advantage?

if you want to tarp my suggestion is to go out and get a cheap 5$ poly tarp … and have fun … go truly minimal

if you want bug protections, extra warmth, weather protection … etc … a tent is usually a better option

where it REALLY gets interesting is something like the hexamid which is basically a very light tent IMO … or these "tarp" systems which are basically modular tents (mld duomid and inner)

"reduced weight … depends on the setup … i suspect if you add all the extras the difference wont be that great … not to mention you can get very light tents these days"

Poncho Tarp 7oz, Bivy 7oz, stakes 2oz = 16oz vs. 40 oz Copper Spur. 1.5 lbs is significant to me.

"easier entry … not if yr using a bivy"

My bivy zips down the side, no more difficult than sliding in a sleeping bag.

"less expensive … not if yr going cuben for the weight advantage and want extra options"

Cuben not necessary. My tarp at 7oz is a $69 Golite Poncho made of Silnylon

"condensation … id say yr worst off in humid climates if yr using a bivy … look up bivy condensation issues, there have been several threads on it"

The entire upper 1/4 of the bivy should be mesh. Mine is and I have zero condensation issues. Without significant mesh you will have condensation issues.

and yet we are arguing in circles … a poncho tarp is not an "equivalent" in certain types of weather to a tent

there are plenty of places where a poncho tarp aint the "best" choice … and i own an ID sil poncho … the OP specifically asked about something with similar coverage and protection to a tent, youd have to go up to a bigger tarp IMO

tents have plenty of advantages … in bug country, in areas with incremental weather, etc …

the trick is not to become one of those tarp fanatics that refuse to see any other way …

MLD because everyone just knows how "bomber" it is and for equivalent protection …

MLD cricket …11 oz, $155
MLD bivy … 7oz, $169
stakes, cord, etc … 2-3 oz, $20

total= ~21 oz, cost = ~$340

terra nova laser photon ~26 oz trail weight … $369 at moontrail …

Beyond persoanl preference for comfort, outdoor philosophy, etc, regarding weight and cost, you definitely need to add the numbers.
For tarps, once you factor in bivys, higher rated sleeping bag or quilt, bug net, etc., the total weight can meet or exceed that of an UL tent.

I have a GG TheOne and total weight for tent, GC and stakes is about 17.8 ounces. Plus weight of Trekking poles, which I would also carry with a tarp set up. 17.5 total is hard to beat with a tarp set-up with the same level of functionality.

Of course the money side of the equation can really go up for UL or SUL options for either one. If I were starting over, I would definitely shop the gear swap for gently used gear more aggressively.

Sorry to derail the original posters thread, but a few responses I feel need correcting. If you are talking price, thats one thing. But I'm tired of some of you tent or tarptent users claiming that your heavy shelters can't be easily beat by a tarp/bivy combo in the weight category.

MLD cuben fiber Grace Solo Tarp: 5.9oz (My older model which doesn't have things like linelocs comes in at 8.3oz with cord, 8 titanium stakes, stuff sack).

MLD Superbivy: 5.5oz with a cuben fiber bottom.

Total WT = 8.3+5.5 = 13.8oz

I bought my tarp in 2008 and my bivy in 2009 and I'm still using them as they are almost as good as new, even after a PCT thru-hike. Where I lose is in the cost, but considering how long I've had them, I think I'm doing better then those who have already thrown away their 4 year olds shelters:

Total Cost = $225(tarp)+$25(8 stakes))+$169(bivy)+$60(CF bottom)=$479

To the poster above, a bivy sack sleeps warmer then a single wall tent as there is less air to warm up. Just thought I'd correct that misunderstanding. ;)

That said, I think where the true arguement lies is whether you can classify a Zpacks Hexamid shelter as a tarp or a tarptent when you have the netting option included. Its kind of in the middle. It's a nice weight, but since I'm a very lazy camper (I hate setting up tents or tarps), I prefer cowboy camping if it isn't raining/snowing. Thus my choice in using a bivy and thus a tarp. Obviously not everyone feels the same.

The lightest, most expensive tarp/bivy combos are barely lighter than the lightest, most expensive solo tents, IF at all.

For solo "tents" like skyscape X, 15 oz.

For tarp/inner tent combos the lines get blurred. Is it a tarp or a tent? These can equal or beat the lightest tarp/bivy combos.

MLD cricket in cuben-13 oz. Hexamid solo with inner net -12 oz.

If you took the hex solo with net and had a solo groundsheet sewn in w/o excess netting (make a true tent) the wt would be about ~10 oz

Realizing that some options are very light because of the use of 0.5 cuben, which others wont use for TENTS because it is too fragile. 0.74 add a couple oz to the same shelter.

Reasons for choosing a tarp may include flexibility, but if you never take advantage of it (ie always bring the bivy), might as well be in the tent .

"Reasons for choosing a tarp may include flexibility, but if you never take advantage of it (ie always bring the bivy), might as well be in the tent ."

You miss the point of Tarp/Bivy flexibility here. On 80% of nights when it's good weather I can pull my Bivy from my Bag, throw it down and I am ready for bed. The Tarp ONLY goes up if weather is bad or going to be bad. My Neoair stays inside my Bivy (deflated of course) along with Sleeping Bag. No setup except blowing up my Neoair.

If you are not into Bivy/Cowboy camping then your missing out on one of the biggest advantages of Tarp/Bivy flexibility in which case you should head more in either the Shaped Tarp (more protection from elements and therefore no need for Bivy), Mid or some other more protective shelter.

+1 on Randy's whole post.

My moment is 26 ounces. The pole is 6.5

My style would be a mld patrol and serenity at 11.5 Plus 8.5. I would need poles at 3. I don't use hiking poles.

So yes. Way ahead of the tent except for setup time which you don't have to carry.

Oh well… Maybe time to get the sewing machine out.

+2 to Randy and Ken

i just got the Integral designs silshelter (12 ozs??) plus steaks and im loving it, if you ventilate it right there's very little condensation

then all you have to do is buy a polycro floor sheet that weights 2 ounces and put it under the tarp and your golden…
looking foreward to the next storm so i can see how it holds up, I bet it will do great!

good luck

@ Travis The increased weight and bulk are the only downsides of the Hilleberg. That is enough to take something else for most around here. It is wet and windy here, a lot.

Many do cowboy when the weathers nice, but dont need a bivy. Just a headnet.

Many tent "inner nets" can also be pitched without the fly on nice nights for the bug phobic.

There is really no difference.

I have woken with my sleeping bag covered with ice from dew quite a few times from cowboy camping. Didnt bother me.

"i just got the Integral designs silshelter"

I purchased one of these a long time ago (2002?) and modified it a bit. I sewed a skirt of mosquito netting around the bottom. This way, on a warm night, I can raise the whole thing up 3-4 inches to allow a breeze to blow under.

–B.G.–

Bob, I agree with the shaped tarp. If you are going to tarp, then tarp. A shaped tarp can offere more protection for less weight, and will weigh less than a tarp + bivy.
Hint, the hexamid is a shaped tarp ,

A bivy could be interpretted as making a statement. It says:

1) My tarp is too small to keep me protected in bad weather
2) I dont know how to pitch my tarp to keep me protected in bad weather
3) I dont like bugs and belong in a tent, but want the pastiche of tarping it.

yeah I know the tarp + bivy is more flexible than a larger tarp and can help with condensation issues with bag or quilt. Just from a pure weight standpoint, the tarp + bivy is heavier than a larger tarp.

yeah screw the bivy unless ur gonna have a super light tarp like a cuben fiber MLD monk If your gonna tarp… TARP. ploycro ground sheet = 1.8 oz and $8 and if you dont like bugs get a sea to summit bug pyrimid for 40 bucks and its only like 8 ozs (correct me if I'm wrong) or just do what bob did and sew some no-see-um in the front and on the ground (something i'm highly considering).

BTW bob how difficult and expensive was that?

Anyway go with something like a Spinn twinn, ID silshelter of a (half)pyrimid with some polycro down low and perhaphs some bug netting. assuming you'll be using hiking poles to hold it up you'll be under 2lbs if not 1lbs.

the silshelter is on sale at backcountry.com right now for $108… when i saw that (after doing my research) i bought it instantly… and its the updated version with higher toe space!

Hexamid Solo w/beak 4.2oz
8 Groundhog stakes 3.82oz
Padded Ground Sheet 3oz
Bivy 4.3 oz
Linelocs .5oz

Total 15.82oz. Lets not talk price. 15.8oz compared to 40oz is a huge difference in my opinion. I feel like the numbers you speced out were for a heavy lightweight tarp bivy setup.

Chase

"BTW bob how difficult and expensive was that?"

As always, it depends.

Back then, I had no sewing machine, so I had to sew it all by hand. That takes a lot of time, although it is easy. I think I was able to find some thin mosquito netting that was cheap. You probably want to make it at least 4" high to do any good, but more than 6" might be overkill. Mine was 5", I believe. It is better to have it an inch or two more than you think you need. Otherwise, the bugs will find gaps underneath and make themselves welcome. In fact, if the bugs are really bad some night, pitch it so that an inch or two of the netting is on the ground, and then pile up a few dozen pebbles on it to keep it down.

Later, I had a similar modification on a similar shelter, and I did it by machine.

–B.G.–

Martin, a bivy can also say that we value our sleeping bag and want to take care of it.

In the end it all depends on what we value.
To me being able to set up a shelter quickly and get inside on a dry floor and bug free environment is important because about the first thing I do at camp is take off my clothes , have a sponge bath and put my camp clothes on.
That refreshes me and keeps me warm for the evening and is a good start for the night.
I also don't like the confined feeling of a bivy (I wake up a few times during the night, often sit up ,look around, have a drink, go for a pee)
I happen to dislike long guylines. Sometime a couple are needed but to have six or eight of them all or most of the time is not my thing..
(I tend to trip over them and at times there is no space for them where I want to set the shelter up)
I also like to set up my shelter taut before I go to sleep but don't want to re-do that or move it during the night because the wind has changed and wind or rain is hitting me from an opened side.
And definitely don't like crawling in under a fly.
So I gladly carry a 25-30 oz shelter that gives me what I like , the 10 or so extra ounces are more than worth in ease of use and peaceful rest.
As one of my mates recently commented about me, yes I prefer "design" (function) over weight.
Franco

This has been a good thread, lots of interesting discussion about tarp/bivy/ground sheet setups.

Does anyone have insight or tips for when one expects very wet conditions? The North Coast of British Columbia has some of the highest rainfall numbers in North America.

If you were planning a 1-2 week trip where it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect heavy rains and wind every day, how would you change your setup? 100% off-trail trekking, lots of bogs, swamps and marshes, potential to have to camp at less than ideal locations. Just wondering what shelter choices people would make. How about solo vs. two people in these conditions?

Cheers, interested to see what peoples thoughts/experiences are with these kinds of conditions.

Rob,

In conditions that swampy I'd use a hammock so the ground isn't an issue.

Todd

i love this forum – great discussion and then in comes hammock the curve ball just to keep things interesting. :)

to sum it all up, personal preference, bugs, level of comfort, bugs and weather and bugs are all factors that come into play beyond the simple cost analysis. i have always considered the weather and bugs and that is why i have a tent, here in the Mid Atlantic region, the bugs are just unruly guests that can't take a hint. in colder weather a tarp or cowboy camping is fine, but once the bloodsuckers are out, i wall of protection is a must.

i'm doing a simple out and back overnighter this weekend and since the weather is going to be incredible for this time of year (75F daytime high, 51F overnight low, no rain) i'll be just bringing the bivy for some cowboy camping. i don't think i'll have an issue with the bloodsuckers since it is still early and the overnight lows are expected to be in the 40's this week. if the weather gets iffy, there is a shelter i can hold up in. if i wasn't staying at the shelter, i would have a tarp just in case.