Titanium JetBoil Sol — CAUTION

For what it’s worth, I’ve reworded the original post that started this thread. I will also reword my blog post.

This verbiage was in my original post. I think it’s appropriate, and I left it unchanged:

Please note that not all the facts are in and that this is a CAUTION only at this juncture. The potential consequences of a failure are serious enough that I think a “caution” is warranted even though all the facts are not in.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

I emailed a link to the other thread to Jetboil customer service.

Didn't hear anything back….

OK…so why not the Sol Aluminum? Is it because of the Titanium Sol being Ti and aluminum at the same time?

M

Yeah it's possible that the welds holding the aluminum the the ti are failing. It is after all difficult to weld the two materials. We're not totally sure if that's the problem though.

"BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE"

This is just crazy. A claymore is a directional explosive meant to direct it forces and projectiles in a forward fan pattern at communists intent on entering your perimeter or walking down a trail. They are also good for home defense against the neighbor's cat.

A Jetboil canister exploding would have an entirely different pattern. An explosion would certainly be hazardous to a tent if this occurred in one, as well as to the neighbor's cat if it was in the same tent.

Warning! Caution! Getting scratched by your neighbors cat could result in infection and ultimately DEATH!

Just thought it prudent to send out a warning.

only teasing!

Hi Jim

> So you’ve got this very hot metal underneath the pot and surrounded by the bracket that
> connects the burner to the pot. That’s a lot of heat confined to a fairly small space.
> Some of that heat is radiated back to the canister. As the canister heats,
I’ll buy that one. Maybe the molten aluminium is a big factor, maybe it’s only a small factor. But something(s) are pumping heat into the canister at a dangerous level.

As to ‘claymore mines’ – well, what I can tell you all is that the typical failure is for the bottonm of the canister to ‘pop off’. As it can’t actually do that, what happens is that the entire top of the canister goes hurtling a long way into the air, with one hell of a bang. The remaining superheated fuel forms a fireball of rapidly expanding size – a BLEVE. How do I know? Controlled experiment of course.

Cheers

Swords can't explode. Duuuuuhhhh!

Matthew Perry wrote: > OK…so why not the Sol Aluminum? Is it because of the Titanium Sol being Ti and aluminum at the same time?

Yes. Affixing aluminum to aluminum is a fairly common process. Also, the aluminum pot will conduct heat away from the heat exchanger fairly well whereas the Ti pot has trouble doing that.

I don’t see anything that would indicate that the all aluminum versions of the JetBoil would have a problem. None of mine, PCS, GCS, or aluminum Sol ever have. I’ve never met or heard of anyone having a problem with the all aluminum versions.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

“BLOW LIKE A CLAYMORE”

This is just crazy. A claymore is a directional explosive meant to direct it forces and projectiles in a forward fan pattern at communists intent on entering your perimeter or walking down a trail. They are also good for home defense against the neighbor’s cat.

A Jetboil canister exploding would have an entirely different pattern. An explosion would certainly be hazardous to a tent if this occurred in one, as well as to the neighbor’s cat if it was in the same tent.

Much appreciated, Jack. I needed a good laugh. :)

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

Roger Caffin wrote: > Hi Jim

> So you’ve got this very hot metal underneath the pot and surrounded by the bracket that
> connects the burner to the pot. That’s a lot of heat confined to a fairly small space.
> Some of that heat is radiated back to the canister. As the canister heats…
I’ll buy that one. Maybe the molten aluminium is a big factor, maybe it’s only a small factor. But something(s) are pumping heat into the canister at a dangerous level. [emphasis added]

My thoughts exactly.

Roger Caffin wrote: > As to ‘claymore mines’ – well, what I can tell you all is that the typical failure is for the bottonm of the canister to ‘pop off’. As it can’t actually do that, what happens is that the entire top of the canister goes hurtling a long way into the air, with one hell of a bang. The remaining superheated fuel forms a fireball of rapidly expanding size – a BLEVE. How do I know? Controlled experiment of course.

Thank you, Roger.

I remembered your experiment and had it in the back of my mind as I made some of my remarks, but it’s good to be reminded of the specifics of the case.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

" Matthew Perry wrote: > OK…so why not the Sol Aluminum? Is it because of the Titanium Sol being Ti and aluminum at the same time?

Yes. Affixing aluminum to aluminum is a fairly common process. Also, the aluminum pot will conduct heat away from the heat exchanger fairly well whereas the Ti pot has trouble doing that.

I don't see anything that would indicate that the all aluminum versions of the JetBoil would have a problem. None of mine, PCS, GCS, or aluminum Sol ever have. I've never met or heard of anyone having a problem with the all aluminum versions."

OK, Jim…then the simple fix would be to make the Sol Titanium with titanium heat exchanger fins, not aluminum…correct? Or is the titanium material itself the issue?

M

Yes, but “titanium” and “heat exchanger” are a bit of an oxymoron. Titanium is a very poor conductor of heat. If you’re trying to pick up heat and conduct it to the contents of a pot, titanium is (almost) the last material that you’d want to use. On the other hand, if I recall correctly, aluminum is a superb conductor and absorber of heat, surpassed only by copper, gold and silver — and copper, gold, and silver are heavier and a little on the pricey side whereas aluminum is light and cheap.

So, you marry the aluminum to the titanium and voila you have a heat exchanger on a titanium pot. The only problem is if the two don’t get along. As noted, there have been some reports of problems with the heat exchanger separating from the pot. In one case the result was quite fiery. Mating Al to Ti is no simple process based on the discussions I’ve had with people who are familiar with the subject.

How common are these separation problems? Dunno.

Will these problems become more common as the Sol Ti stoves age? Possibly, but I can’t really say.

Honestly, I like the idea of an 8.5 ounce (out of the box) Ti stove/pot heat exchanger combo, and I hope these are just quality control failures. The thing that nags at the back of my mind though is the difficulty of marrying Ti and Al.

Ultimately, I suppose time will tell. The more they sell and the mroe “miles” that get put on those stoves, the better idea we’ll have of how common failures are and if there really is a problem.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

So I just look at the weld periodically and ensure its neatly mating with the pot? If it is coming off then report under warranty?

It's great that we can discuss these things in the minutest of details and analyze them until we've exhausted every possibility including alien abduction. Look, this seems to be a QC issue with the Flux ring at worst. Consider how many of these Ti models that have *not* had this issue and that may put it into perspective. To recap then, if I may…

– This seems to be a QC issue – so engage JetBoil directly and properly to get their feedback
– Has nothing to do with exploding canisters
– The blog title was overly sensational as nothing exploded
– No furry animals were hurt during the making of the video :-)

Is it just me or are these discussions getting totally out of hand lately? I mean come on. The best part of this 2-page thread (as of writing this) is the occasional shameless plug by BPL between the threads to let you purchase JetBoil stoves. If this were a serious bad issue with exploding stoves (which it isn't remember) then the advertisements would be even more hilarious.

I think we should all move on until we have heard back from JetBoil regarding the issue and the extend of this occurring.

Alien abduction responsible? Interesting…

I wonder if anyone has ever boiled over a pot with the boiling water going onto any canister stove?

"I wonder if anyone has ever boiled over a pot with the boiling water going onto any canister stove?"

Most of us probably have. But what Jim is talking about is the degradation of the fins, which then forces the heat down to the canister, something one would not see. This is akin to using a windscreen wrapped closely around an upright canister, which we know is a disaster waiting to happen.

Is this a design error or user error? We don't know yet. But I think caution is in order, and with any stove it behooves the owner to read and follow the manufacturer's instructions exactly.

Don't hold your breath on a quick answer from Jet Boil. If it is a design failure, their attorneys are looking at it, and we will see a recall. They are not going to make any comment without legal counsel.

But maybe the failure started with boil-over, hot water on canister, sudden large increase of flow of butane, large flame, damage to fins/pot

So it's not that the fins are deficient

So have you had a major boil over with canister stove?

As a jetboil owner and user, I get to comment on this whole mess.
1. If you use it for other than boiling water, you made your own mess. I'm pretty sure that's what "jetboil" refers to.
2. Don't blame a good product made by a good company for your own stupidity. Kind of like taking Ford to court because you drove one off into the lake and it didn't float.
3. If you don't own a jetboil, you kind of don't really have much right to try to post negative things about a great product. What are you hoping to gain? Just RTFM and you'll be allright.
Oh, doody! My pot of mac and cheese just boiled over why I was typing this! Does General Electric have a website? I have to go warn people about the dangers of using a stove in your kitchen while surfing the internet. Have fun.

I have had boil over on GE stove at home cooking pasta. No big deal because no canister underneath.

I have never had a boil over on canister stove because I just boil water, which doesn't boil over even when I forget about it and suddenly notice it's violently boiling.

Then I'll sometimes put in soup or oatmeal, which might boil over, but at that point I stir it a couple times and then turn it off.

If I was cooking pasta on my canister stove and forgot about it, I might have a problem. I wonder if anyone has ever done this?

"As to 'claymore mines' – well, what I can tell you all is that the typical failure is for the bottonm of the canister to 'pop off'. As it can't actually do that, what happens is that the entire top of the canister goes hurtling a long way into the air, with one hell of a bang. The remaining superheated fuel forms a fireball of rapidly expanding size – a BLEVE. How do I know? Controlled experiment of course."

Though I've never blown up a fuel canister, I've blown up several aerosol cans and depending on how they are heating, they all failed in one of three possible ways. 1) heating the side directly with an oxy-acetyline torch- this caused the side to get red hot, bulge, and fail at that location. Bang- fireball etc… 2) heated evenly like in fire or oven failed in one of two ways- the first one is just a seam failing and springing a leak which results in the can spinning around jetting out flames from the seam until it ran out of pressure, and the last was as you described. The bottom blowing off with a loud bang, sending it sailing for about 10 ro 20'. I had the can laying on a incline, bottom up, and the bottom isn't very aerodynamic so it doesn't go very far.

Like I said, I did a lot of really stupid things in my older teen age years (my poor parents) and early adulthood. My saving grace, I think, is having enough common sense to take at least some precautionary measures, as well as having some amount of luck.

BM

Jerry Adams wrote: > But maybe the failure started with boil-over, hot water on canister, sudden large increase of flow of butane, large flame, damage to fins/pot

Jerry,

That may very well have happened, but we don’t really know, and no further information is forthcoming about the originating incident. I’ve revised my caution to soften a bit. I’ll probably further revise it, softening it even further since the large flame incident appears to be isolated and the circumstances less clear than I first perceived.

However, I think caution is still advised. The most common report I’ve seen is someone heating things other than water in their JB Sol Ti and having the fins melt. To me, that’s user error not design defect, but still I think it’s important to bear in mind that mistakes on a JB Ti Sol may cost you your HE fins. The possibility of a runaway thermal feedback loop remains, but it’s unclear how likely that might be or whether some other precipitating event might first have to occur (i.e. a boil over).

Thank you to you and David Ure in particular for keeping me honest.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

I'm just not seeing the theoretical molten aluminum causing a positive feedback by heating the canister. Small mass, low heat capacity, much of it spatters off, etc.

Here are some sequences I can imagine:

For some reason, the flame is too high (tipped over and fed liquid fuel through the control valve, an over-filled canister got warm and fed liquid fuel through the control valve, a defective control valve allowed too much gaseous fuel out, the valve was left wide open due to cold canister which then warmed up, etc) and the high flame melted the aluminum flux ring. That is thin alumimun – surprisingly thin to me (and I've designed and fabricated more than a few heat exchangers in my professional work) – so in too high a flame, the flux ring may not be able to conduct enough heat to the pot to stay below its melting point.

Or, as suggested by others, if the weld partially fails at the Al/Ti junction, then the heat exchange will reduce GREATLY and those Al fins will approach flame temperature and melt off the pot.

As to a thermal-feedback loop (perhaps due to a wind screen being used?), that would certainly increase pressure in the canister. If velocities through the control valve aren't near sonic velocities*, then more pressure in the canister makes for more fuel flow, a bigger flame and more thermal feedback.

*If they are near sonic velocities, then only the cross-sectional area of the control valve opening matters, more back pressure wouldn't increase the mass flow of fuel. That would be a very safe way to design a maximum burn rate into such a device, but I didn't design this thing, I don't know how Jetboil addressed that issue, if they did at all.

I for one appreciate HJ bringing this issue to my attention – I'd rather know to be alert to such a possibility than be surprised by it on some dark and stormy night. Yeah, HJ gets a little excited about anything related to stoves – that is maybe to be expected in someone with his avocation. My theory is that, like a baby duckling, he imprinted on the first thing he ever saw, but his parents had just left the room and he spied an Optimus 8R nearby.

As for it being improper for anyone to criticize or to question Jetboil's design, I disagree. I had a co-worker who LOVED AMC Pacers. I'd grant him that (1) the things had great visibility in all directions, and (2) he'd never have to pay child support because he'd never "get lucky" while driving a Pacer. But his love of a particular design doesn't mean AMC engineered the thing perfectly and made each and every one of them 100% reliable. From from it.

Hi Jim

> someone heating things other than water in their JB Sol Ti and having the fins melt. To
> me, that's user error not design defect,
I wonder how far that defence would go in court against an experienced tort lawyer?

What would the average off-the-street customer buy a stove for? Did the box the stove and pot came in have a large warning across the front which said 'This stove is not for cooking your dinner'?

Shakes head.

Cheers

To say its your fault because you cooked food in it would be a lame defense in a civil court, unfortunately consumer products need to be nearly bulletproof and have warning labels all over them.

There is too much speculation about whats going on in these cases of fin failure and the one fireball case. It's very easy to say it was "user error" on all events outside our own personal experience. It would be nice to hear what Jetboil has to say about this.