advice for a cold night

Misting/moisture from rivers always seems to chill me to the bone. I try to camp far away from them now. Also, how tight were your liner socks?

I agree with being farther from water. This was a preset campsite.

The socks were not constricting. I've had that problem in the past with other socks and have been happy with these.

Valleys, even with the absence of a river, can often be much chillier than the surrounding temps because the cold air settles there. Did you have a thermometer on you to check the immediate area's temperature?

Your sleeping pad was pushing its temp limits. I use a Prolite in 3 seasons and begin taking my DAM when the temp drops below freezing.

What shelter were you using?

"Valleys, even with the absence of a river, can often be much chillier than the surrounding temps because the cold air settles there."

Cold air flows down a valley like a stream of cold air

If you can be on a bench overlooking the valley bottom it can be warmer

If you're at the head of a valley it probably doesn't matter

If there's a large area that's higher elevation and exposed to night sky, that drains into where you are, it's colder.

I figured that the valley+water was a major factor. I didn't have thermometer. The Thermarest was pushing it. While sitting, I could feel cold coming through under the focal spot under my butt. I was in a TT Moment with foot, head, and side open. No breeze though. It was a very still night.

Do you guys think that the cold dampness was enough to affect the quilt's insulation? I had left it in the tent to loft for a good 4 hours. I laid under it for a couple before settling down for good.

everything appears that it should be ok. perhaps it may be worth your while to carry a 24×20 section of ccf pad to use directly under your torso.

it could've been your pad not giving enough R
it could've been the quilt not performing to 20
it could've been colder than the 30s you thought it was due to: moisture, valley cold

lately in colder temps (i use a quilt in a hammock) i've been trying to use a bandana over my mouth (like a bad guy in cowboy movies) to try to keep the moisture of my breath off of my top quilt. some guys use other techniques to keep their breath off of the quilt.

being in the moment should've added a few degrees to the outside temps. any chance you were sweaty when you got to camp?

How drafty is your quilt? I used a quilt to below freezing with no problems in a bivy. One night I tried it without a bivy when it was maybe 40. I woke up chilly and went back to using the bivy.

Usually, the noticeable dampness in a bag/quilt comes from the user when they're in a shelter, either from sweat or breath. However, it is always possible for cold damp air to be trapped under the canopy. Hmmmm.

If you could feel your butt getting cold, then I'd see that as a major issue that night.

The fleece hat may have not been enough either. I'm beginning to learn that even if my head *feels* warm it is possibly because my body is expending a lot of energy to keep it that way, robbing the rest of me of warmth.

Sometimes the conditions line up just right to make a chilly night, even if your gear is adequate.

in order of effectiveness and price IMO

1. yr ground insulation was insufficient … solution, get a cheap foamy to put under/over it

2. yr head insulation was possibly insufficient … solution, add another cheap hat

3. yr 20F 800 fill quilt may not have been 800 fill in cold damp conditions … humidity reduced the effective insulation of high fill down in real world conditions … solution get a warmer quilt/bag, or wear more clothing to sleep, or use a hawt nalgene

as to the camping area … sometimes you may not have the luxury of choosing … so i wont comment on that

if your bag is cold before jumping in or you are … do some situps in it first to warm up

also real cheese and salami does wonders for that warm fuzzy feeling

In addition to everything everyone listed above. I always try to avoid pulling my bag out until I'm ready to use it to prevent any moisture in the air from getting to it while I'm not inside to keep it warm. I think you should at least have a scrap of closed cell foam under your legs and feet. I also didn't see you listing any sort of leggings under your pants to keep warm. For me my feet and legs will always be the first part to get cold in any sleep system so extra insulation there first pushes the temp rating down for me.

Thanks all for the thoughts. My suspicion is that the unpleasant experience was multifactorial. So now comes the challenge of adjusting the equipment without adding too much weight and controlling costs.

Adding a CCF or better hat/balaclava is an easy choice.

But adding warmth to the whole package, could be pricey. As all of you know, light insulation layers, different quilts, and bivies aren't that cheap. My gut tells me that 8oz of bivy might be the single move that could make a difference even though it's doubling up on the shelter. The other option I'm weighing is a MLD Spirit Quilt. More "conventional" but more costly. Thoughts?

try the above again with a foamy and extra hat but without swapping out the quilt and see how it works out … cinch your quilt a bit better …

i suspect you might have a better time … eat some real cheese and salami before hand

at worst, youll just use a hawt nalgene as well …

dont spend $$$$ unless you need to … if you need a bivy with a quilt inside a tent and an extra hat … you might want to ask if an en-rated sleeping bag is better, you can always find those on sale ….

think of it as learning … being able to make UL gear lists and purchasing a BPL membership doesnt imbue one with the experience and techniques to become an instant outdoors expert sad to say (i demand my moola back !!!!) … ;)

I have used the UL-20 below zero when I have had good insulation from the snow, a bivy and a sleeping bag liner. Before going to expense of a quilt I would definitely try an additional CCF pad, I used a 5/8" ridgerest and a full length Prolite 3. I also think that a bivy can be a huge help both in controlling drafts and trapping in a bit of heat. Bottom line, you can have the best quilt but if you are lacking in either draft protection or padding then you will be cold.

+1 on the valley and moisture issues. I don't see a shelter listed and sleeping under the stars with no bivy or a tarp to block any wind will make a big difference. Even a slight breeze will suck the heat from you at those temps. Wrapping a space blanket around you and your quilt may have helped.

I was on a walk the other day and it was 40F and really damp with a slight breeze. I was freezing! I felt much warmer a week before with 4" of snow on the ground and the high 20's F. It wasn't just me– several people I passed were feeling the same.

Its also possible that your body heat was trapped in your two insulating top layers not fully permeating into your quilts insulation. This renders the quilts insulation less useful. Wearing the extra layers is a good idea but initially allow your body heat to escape into the quilt then zip up as needed. As Eric said, sits ups are also good for this, generating heat in your quilt.

As other have said, site selection can provide warmer conditions, but I am sure you will see these sorts of temps in the future.

Clearly the pad was inadequate since you could feel the cold coming in so that is a must fix. Adding some foam is a very cheap fix. If you were wearing clothing made from the same material and thickness of your hat and nothing else… would you be warm enough sitting around, much less sleeping? My guess is no. That suggests you want more for your head. You want to beef up your hat significantly. I always recommend DownWorks Baklava, but there are plenty of other options.

I expect a bivy would help a fair bit when you are at freezing temps. I used my quilt for a number of years without a bivy, and didn't think I was losing that much heat, but I think I was wrong. In the last year or two I have been using a MLD SuperLite bivy… it has made a significant difference when the temp got below 35-40F.

I understand not taking your quilt out too soon, but did you take it out to give it enough time to maximize loft and fluff it up before getting under it?

On other thing I would add (sort of serious, sort of not). There is something about Henry Coe that seems to suck the warmth out of me. I always take a thermometer with me. I have often felt cold in Henry Coe, when exactly the same temp/humidity I have been comfortable other places. Sometimes I could trace it back to not eating/drinking enough but sometimes I couldn't explain my experience.

–Mark

I'm repeating what others have said, but,
I highly suspect the sleeping pad combination was the major weak point.
Your quilt probably insulated far more than the sleeping pad and a ULA Circuit has very little in the way of insulating properties.

If you were at an established camp ground, you were probably sleeping on hard cold ground, sucking your heat away through the ground.

Being in the damp valley doesn't help. The high moisture content in a valley with creek also helps draw the heat away.

Pitching on grass/duff would have helped a lot, but bringing a pad(s) to match the quilt would be a good idea if you are a cold sleeper.

One thing that I have stated before is that I was a cold sleeper, but found that after repeated nights in the cold, my body acclimated.

If I haven't slept in the cold for a while, the first night of a trip will be the coldest, but by the end of the trip it no longer bothers me.

No leg insulation other than your bag and nylon pants? I'd freeze too. Come out to Coe again next weekend and the 75 of us will pick your gear apart.

With life/work I completely forgot about the 4th annual trip. I'll try to stop by if life/work permits. Thanks.