Is all weight equal? – Trekking Poles …

"Personally, I have chosen to "cup" the handle from above and control it by grasping it lightly between my thumb and middle finger with the ring finger there to support if necessary, which serve as an axis to swing the tip forward at the end of each step with a slight lift of my forearm. For propulsion, I just press the palm of my hand against the top of the handle and push. The mechanics sort of imitate a spear throwing stick. I can do this all day, on trail and off, with no fatigue"

I also evolved to the method that Tom described. It resulted in using the poles two different ways, the above for flats and downhills and normal grip for the uphills. Since the poles are shorter it eliminates the needs to adjust the poles.

As far as the GG LT4's….. Let's play this out and say that a section breaks. Usually it will be a lower. If you can't field repair it then it can generally still be used (by me) for my tarp. When setting up my tarp one pole is fully shortened which can usually still be done by using the tip in the upper. I view this as a very low risk scenario.

I don't think that there is any doubt that heavier poles will fatigue you more. I have always viewed it the same as shoes, the old adage that a lb on your feet is equal to 6 on your back. (or whatever it is) I spent the money on the LT4's rather than other areas because there was a big weight advantage and I did see a difference. But as with every BP gear choice these advantages have to seighed against a hundred other factors.

Craig,
But as a runner, here’s what I don’t understand:
Just about any running coach, especially those who specialize in distance running and achieving efficiency, will tell runners to keep arms, shoulders, and hands as relaxed as possible to conserve energy and maintain a smoother form. Any distance runner knows that excessive tension in the arms, shoulders, and hands, especially over long distances, is tiring, if not painful.

Trekking poles seem to run totally contrary to this idea of conservation, yet somehow are claimed to boost efficiency.

If your upper body is tense, you’re doing it wrong. Like a paddle, a pole should become an extension of your arm–exactly what Kat was talking about with the feeling of 4-legged downhill scrambling. There are many ways to use them, but the key is the using–your upper body has to be active. If you’re gripping tightly or just dragging them along, you’re not coordinating your upper and lower body motion and poles become dead weight. Compare also to Dave C.’s line about “paddling the water, not paddling the paddle.” And just like a paddle, length and balance are important factors, not just overall weight.

Harlan,
Using your upper body strength is so self evident that I’d just toss out any sources that can’t see such a simple fact. Try cross country skiing or biking without your arm strength. Or swimming. The cross country ski stride you fall into with trekking poles is the same exact motion, push off a touch with each pole plant, pushes you forward, upper body strength.

This is most certainly a contributor in my case. Interesting that you mention swimming, as I was a swimmer (and skied, and canoed) growing up, and I find as an adult all sorts of rhythmic, repetitive upper body motions feel not only natural but soothing in a way. Using poles just feels good, somehow. Once in a rhythm I don’t think about them at all; I unconsciously am adjusting placement, planting/pushoff force, grip position, etc. Someone asked about weakest links–mine is balance (swimming again. It doesn’t exactly develop land-based coordination.). With a pole or two, I can move much more quickly and with increased stability.

One thing I do not like about poles are the “ergonomic” grips. I want to be able to slide my hand up and down the pole in automatic length adjustment as I’m able to do with my hiking stick. Of course the stick does not have a loop and the greater pushoff strength afforded by that is the tradeoff you pay. Even so I’ve put a second, larger loop on my poles so I have the option of a lower or sliding grip if I want.

"Yep, i'm waiting to skewer a toad one of these days."

It's cool as long as you eat what you kill. No catch and release when using poles, Jake. ;0)

"I think you are from the Alps originally, Kat?
Folk have been using them for years in Europe."

We have a very similar situation up here in the Northwest. Our mountains are very similar to the Alps, not all that high, but with very steep, often rocky,and/or slippery slopes. When I first moved up here, I didn't use poles, relying instead on leg strength and got by just fine. Around the time I turned 60, I reluctantly started using them and it didn't take long to make a true believer out of me. I would not still be hiking the mountains up here if I couldn't use poles; the slopes are just too steep and gnarly. My 2 cents.

"Since I am little, some of the taller "steps" can be hard for me; I use poles to literally propel myself up the steps"

A big +1 to that!

Is one pole providing half the benefit?

I own one pole from when I broke an ankle and then used it again when I broke a toe.

Going uphill, the limiting factor on my speed is cardio fitness having to lift my combined mass, my legs are never the limiting factor I don't need the arms to make me faster, all I'm doing is moving some of the effort from the legs to the arms, the arms will hence become stronger and the legs get less strong. In summer my body shape is dominated by the 350-500miles/week biking up the local hills and it does work out the upper body holding the handlebars the aching part of the body is usually across the chest, never the legs. Legs are naturally bigger muscles so it will be easier to maintain their strength than get arm strength.

The ability to reuse poles to reduce weight of the shelter is making me look again at poles and I'm finding this thread most informative!

Has anyone been damaged by their poles, it catching and damaging the wrist or jabbing oneself during a tumble?

Nigel, when i am rock climbing i carry a paint pole (stick clip) and only use one. for a while i used just one normal treking pole too. I find for most downhills just having one is fine. stream bed trails and other things that require balance having 2 is faster but if you just want to bring one you should do ok.

being able to let go, throw, drop etc a pole is one of the reasons i don't use the straps. the second is that i don't use them to *push* me along so there is no benefit for me to use them

@Tom bahaha i dunno about that. i've had frogs legs before but i don't think i'd go all Les Stroud on the trail.

My experience has led me to try all of the paths: I began as a competitive Triathlete when I was 17 (age-group stuff only folks) and have skied since I was a child. My first foray into Backpacking any large distance led me to START the A.T last year and get about 500 miles before I had 3 rapid fire failures of the lower sections of my GG LT4s poles. Very light – but when I rely on them to set up my SoloMid then they are a pain for MY particular hiking speed and terrain. I switched over to my previously purchased-and-then-left-due-to-weight Black Diamond Trail Ergo Cork (just over 16 oz. / pair) poles. My BD's saw me literally pole vaulting across streams and hiking around 3 mph over PA rocks and White mountain passes and have lasted without a single issue for over 2,000 miles over hiking in the last 12 months. And they are much cheaper.

When I'm doing quick trips, and "trail run" type fast packs I don't bring the hiking poles. Anything longer than an overnight, or carrying more than 10lbs in my pack, than I bring the poles.

Also to consider is this: I slipped and touched touched the ground (hands or body) without meaning to only 6 times on the whole A.T. If I hadn't used poles I'm sure that number would have been closer to 600 times. For me that was a huge factor to warrant using them.

To each their own !! I kept dropping the LTs poles because they are so light you forget to hold onto them – I kid you not. I also rarely use the straps, and prefer (much like skiing) to flick the poles out rapid fire in front of me, as I blaze down the trails. The BD are heavy, and I do notice the weight compared to the LT4s, but they work for my apparent excessive speed of hiking and terrain.

Summary: If you can go light – go light. But go safely, and go comfortably so that you can keep going until you can't go any more.

A couple of thoughts,
– The benefits of trekking poles increase with your body (meaning excess for some)weight and pack weight*.
Benefits:
– Endurance – less tiring
– Shifts weight from fully on feet
– Safety – prevents falls
– Avalanche Safety – take off basket and use as a probe
– Hiking Aid – Poles literally help me get up Colorado 14ers in winter – at about 13,500 ft going up hill I plant the two in front of me and use my arm to pull me up (pushing straight down on the straps).
– Improves short term speed in some situations – see Aid above – downhill on unstable terrain
– Tool – probe snow pack, river depth, tent poles

When not used properly (e.g. weight NOT on straps) some of these benefits are lost.

So, my suggestion would be to get/borrow trekking poles and learn how to use them properly so you get all the benefits. Once you have experienced all the benefits, then you can determine how you use them.

When I do a winter 14er hike – there is the potential for my carrying, snow shoes, crampons, intermediate traction device, ice axe, 100 oz water, emergency supplies to last 1 night, I sometimes even carry a canister stove and pot to make some hot chocolate.

I don't know how much all this weights but I am not going to risk injury and death over weight. I hike alone to add to the risk.

I use cheap Walmart poles and have been using trekking poles since I was a whipper snapper. When I hiked the AT maybe one out of fifty people I passed had trekking poles. I took a lot of grief and heard my share of cross-country skiing jokes.

I'm not in the camp of trying to optimize my every trip for maximum efficiency. I hike because I enjoy the exercise and the environment. Having hiked both with and without trekking poles, I won't leave home without them. I know I can go further with them than without. If the efficiency arguments that are being made are true….. then that wouldn't be the case. I'd save all kinds of energy by not lifting my 21 oz poles a gazillion times a day and arrive at camp ready to do some push-ups and jumping jacks.

"@Tom bahaha i dunno about that. i've had frogs legs before but i don't think i'd go all Les Stroud on the trail."

I'm with you on that one, Jake. Frog legs are pretty darn tasty. Toads, OTOH, look pretty foul. I've eaten a lot of unusual things down thru the years, but I'd draw the line at toads.

I don't think we truly know enough about the subject or have a method to really test the hypothesis of poles vs non-poles.

So I did some observations on my trip this weekend. Actually I really just thought about what I was doing when I hike, for maybe an hour or so. Not trying to prove a point, nor convince anyone that any method is better.

There is a trail near my house that is a jump-off spot for many of my trips. I can plan many kinds of trips from this trail head. Normally I do not walk back down this trail, because I hate to cover the same real estate twice. The first mile of this trail gains 1,000 feet elevation, and at the one mile point there are some picnic benches. Normally I do not eat breakfast at home, so I find things work best for me to drink a cup of coffee on my 5 minute drive to the trail, hike to the picnic benches and stop to eat a nominal breakfast. Usually I glance at my watch when I hit the benches and it almost always is a 30 minute hike to them. With poles it is usually 35 or 40 minutes. But I don't track it or look that closely.

Because I was thinking about this thread, Saturday morning I took several pictures of the trail and it took 40 minutes to get to the benches. This is the kind of trails I often hike. Not well maintained, varying terrain, lots of rocks and shrubs. The difficulty with poles here is that the angle of the trail changes frequently. Also at times I need to step up, may 12 inches or more to get over a rock. Also there are narrow sections with rocks and shrubs, so one would have to hold the poles directly in front of you.

As I started, I noticed that my arms only moved 6 to 12 inches back and forth, much shorter distance than would be required for using poles. I also noticed that had I been using poles, the distance from hand to ground could vary by 12 to 24 inches. Many rocks where one would have to place a pole would be slippery and many spots would require that the pole be placed between two rocks. I also noticed that I was almost always leaning forward. The angle would change according to the steepness of the slope. On some steep stepping up, my body would go to a vertical position, and I would lean forward with my hand on my thigh and push my self forward, not to get up, to to accelerate my forward motion. On several section, I placed my thumbs under my should straps, this just feels comfortable, my arms are moving and all energy expended is carried by the legs. On some sections where I was a little winded, if I hit a section of relatively flat trail, I would walk with my hands on my hips, seems that I get more air in my lungs.

Once I was past the benches and walking, I became engrossed with the things around me and forgot about the "experiment." Occasionally, I would notice that my hands were in my pockets (flat or gentle down slopes), sometimes under the straps, the rest just loosely hanging. I would guess that I use one of the 3 methods 1/3 of the time.

Return down next day. Legs were somewhat tired, but not excessively. At the benches, I remembered to think about walking. I also decided to time it, and I tried to keep my normal pace, and not race down to get a good time. Going down, I slightly lean forward and my steps often shrink to 1/4 the length as normal. But they are quick steps, at times almost a slow jog, which seems the much faster pace would make it more difficult to keep up with poles. I often hop from stone to stone. On narrow sections, where the trail has eroded below the adjacent rocks, I found my self straddling the trail as I kind of hopped from side to side — don't know how one would handle poles here. I pretty much let gravity pull me forward, and it seems that poles would cause on to fight gravity, and put a lot of pressure on the arms. Anyway, the trip down was 21 minutes. Oh, and I had a great weekend as usual.

Some pictures which probably mean little, plus taking them was really, really boring!

:)

I've never measured the forces at work when using poles, but I have used the GG LT3 and 4 poles, BDEL Ultra-distance poles, and Leki Ti poles, all pretty extensively.

First of all, at the risk of sounding like a blowhard, my informal observations of most hikers using poles shows incorrect, inefficient style. "Most people" try to plant the poles (especially current/former skiers) instead of trying to mimic a cross-country ski-type motion;, a more relaxed, flowing method. The poles should act like a virtual handrail throughout the motion and not as a crutch, walking stick, or ski pole.

I like the fixed length GG LT3 poles without straps for this. I can move my hands around the grips to achieve various "lengths" and postures. I notice a marked decline in comfort and agility if I use the heavier poles. That being said, if I am using the poles for safety on a snow slope, off-trail on boulders, etc., I would use the Lekis. However, I have never broken a GG pole on any trail and I am 6'-2" and 210#. I leave the baskets on to reduce the risk of burying the poles in a crevice or hole.

So, I guess my point is pick the lightest tool applicable to the job at hand and learn to use the equipment properly.

Todd,

The question in my mind is whether or not they help (for people without some lingering injury). When I got my first pair, it was a "if." And I admitted earlier I am sure I do not know how to use them properly. However, given the terrain I hike, being so variable, they seem more of a hindrance than a help. But I am no expert by any means. So, hopefully the thread opens up more discussion without anyone getting upset. I will admit that the LT4s have made pretty good tarp poles. But I would rather carry a couple 3 oz corded poles in my pack for that purpose. And I am not firm in my belief. If someone makes a great case for the advantages, I am all ears.

"The question in my mind is whether or not they help (for people without some lingering injury)."

Yes they help.

And, they help in direct proportion to the weight being carried and the length of the hike.

What was the weight of your pack?

deleted

This thread just went back to square one.
Yes, for most of us, not old, not fat, nor hurt, they help .They help us not get hurt.
While we gained a lot by going "erect", we lost something as well. Poles give us a little of that back.

Edited out the nastier parts.

"Some pictures which probably mean little, plus taking them was really, really boring!"

Now that, to me, is a perfect pole trail, especially coming down. ;0)

Yes, boring, and not only to take. 3-4 would have gotten your point across nicely and also reduced the time it takes to scroll thru the rest to get to subsequent posts. Just sayin'. :)

Yes, those pics could be of many trails here and that is where I use my poles.
Yet again I cannot see the point of trying to convince someone that does not like them to use them just as I don't see the point of keep going back to "the only if you are slow/fat/weak/unhealthy/injured/disabled…" bit because that is simply not true either…
Franco

"Yet again I cannot see the point of trying to convince someone that does not like them to use them just as I don't see the point of keep going back to the "slow/fat/week/unhealthy/injured/disabled…" bit because that is simply not true either…"

Patience, Franco, patience. Chaffish contentiousness creeps into just about everything this time of year. In a couple of months, folks will be out in the hills and all of this will vanish like….chaff in the wind. ;0)

:-)

@nick That is definite downhill pole territory for me. I don't need poles for propulsion. I like them for balance and as a brake going downhill. The less pounding my knees take the faster i hike and the less sore i am. I am 31 i'm not some old guy.

It is quite evident that you are not comfortable or proficient at using poles. Which is fine. but trying to tell people who are, are doing it wrong is funny. You don't know what to do when you're bouncing back and forth? you either pole plant quickly like skiing or you grab them in the middle and carry them until you're back to 'normal'. DUhhh. Again I don't use straps because i find them to be useless. it is not XC skiing you're hiking. I do not believe that pushing with poles increases speed or saves energy. some folks like Kat like them to help boost on high steps uphill, i'm a climber i tend to just grab something for that.

ie I did the Mt Tripyramid loop in the Whites in 5 hours 11mi 2800' of elevation gain then descent. While not blazing fast it should be noted the first slope is mainly rock slab. I used poles for the short down bit after the first peak and carried them while jogging across the 2nd peak and used them extensively on the way down the scree slope in the picture. once i got back to the flatter trail i stowed them again.

How about the steepest 1mi of the Appalachian trail? this is right next to waterfalls and the wood is usually damp. fairly to very slippery. major injury potential

Here is my two cents; trekking poles don’t help and may hinder (waste energy) on flat ground with stable terrain. On downhill they do provide stability and increase balance, and help decrease the eccentric forces of muscles in your legs, through using isometric muscle contractions in your upper extremities (energy efficient). Uphill allows your upper extremities to take a little force off your legs. If trekking poles did nothing, then Andrew Skurka would not have used them. The lighter the poles are the better- e.g. (backpacking light).

Jake,

I am not saying anyone is doing it wrong, or that I am right. And I have stated a couple of times that I probably do not know how to use poles properly.

But here is a question for everyone. I have pretty strong legs. My upper body is not strong at all. I doubt I could do 10 push-ups. I never lift weights or do any kind of work with my upper body. So if I hike 10 miles using poles and on nearly every step help propel myself, my upper body is going to get a good work out and I am not maximizing the strongest muscles in my body, which never get excessively tired. So overall, my heart and other stuff must be working harder, correct? Would I become more tired than if I did not use the poles? This would be good input from someone who has expertise in this area.

I used poles for 2.5 years on almost every hike. There is a hike that I do a few times a year that is fairly strenuous. After I started using poles, it took me a lot longer to hike it. But I figured I was just getting older, maybe on those hikes I was not in as good as shape as usual, or maybe I didn't get enough sleep the nights before the hike. All of these could be factors, plus probably many I haven't even thought about. My hike up part of it (~ 11.5 miles) last spring was one of the most tiring and slow trips I have ever done on that trail. I just figured that hitting 60 was a sign of aging.

I quit using the poles a few months after that trip. Last fall I did the trail without poles and made it in two hours faster than I had ever done it with poles. Now, lets keep in mind all the variables I mentioned earlier, so it is not a scientific experiment. And I was less tired than any hike I had done with poles. So, improper use of poles could be the issue. Anyway, it took me a little over 9 hours and averaged around 2 miles per hour. Now I think that 2 mph is a reasonably good pace for that kind of elevation gain, and I think it is because I used only the muscles that could get the job done most efficiently. But, heck… if anyone wants to experiment on this trail with and without poles, I would be thrilled to hike it with you. Here is an elevation graph below that someone did of the trail. I wouldn't know where to begin to make something like this. The actual hike ended at around 18 miles, so ignore the last couple miles in the chart.

If I can go down this trail at ~ 3 mph (remember the pictures I posted yesterday), never slip or fall without poles, then what is the advantage of using poles? Will I go faster? 3 mph seems pretty reasonable to me on that kind of terrain. My knees don't hurt after hiking, so that is not an advantage. Are folks going down these kinds of rocky trails at 4 mph?

Nick
One thing is crystal clear here : poles don't work for you.
The bit that somehow is not clear to you is that they DO work for some.
I really cannot think of any other way of explainig to you why when a tool is used correctly it works and when not it may not but that is life.
BTW, I can walk faster than driving a car .
Yep, I can't drive…
Franco