Is all weight equal? – Trekking Poles …

I will never hike in the mountains without my poles, but I find them to be just extra gear on the flat land hikes so I leave them at home then.

As to swing weight, that's very important. I fly fish and have found that rod "A" can weigh more than rod "B" but, rod "A" needs a lighter reel than rod "B" to balance it because it's swing weight (not total weigh) is lower. The difference is unbelievably significant with fly rods.

More full workout, this stuff is so self-evident to me that I have to wonder if, as I have suspected, my early childhood cross country skiing engrained this method and technique so deeply in me that I don't have to think to do it right, though the motions feel totally natural to me.. But that could be simply because I learned it so young.

If your arms are like toothpicks and your cardio is down, then trekking poles are the solution, not a problem, they are the exact solution to your condition, I estimate I am running at much higher cardio levels with trekking poles, I break a sweat much earlier in the hike, and my conditioning increases far more quickly. If you aren't seeing this type of upper body workout and cardio improvement, I'd say it's almost certian you are using them wrong.

"If you aren't seeing this type of upper body workout and cardio improvement, I'd say it's almost certian you are using them wrong."

Not using them wrong, just not enough. I'm too vain to use poles walking around the sidewalks of LA.

Hiking poles aren't for everyone. But as I've gotten older I found that I prefer to hike with poles.

I have read a lot of commentary on the pro's and con's of poles and I always enjoy hearing theory and opinions about them.

For me it just comes down to personal preference. I generally get my skin out weight as low as possible, then add back in the things that make my hikes more enjoyable. Poles are one of those things.

I have the Titanium Goat 3.2 oz (each) carbon fiber poles so the weight penalty isn't excessive and I really like the adjustable length feature.

I'm not looking for the cardio benefits.
They simply help if i have to cross a fast flowing, thigh deep mountain stream, or descend a steep mountain scree slope.
And they let me sleep without worrying about my shelter collapsing during a storm. ;)

"If your arms are like toothpicks and your cardio is down, then trekking poles are the solution, not a problem, they are the exact solution to your condition"

Well, I suppose one can use that logic to say that if your shoulders, back, legs, and feet are weak, then a big ass pack and heavy boots are the solution, not the problem, because "they are the exact solution to your condition"?

But I do know what you mean. The less strain we feel, the more enjoyable our hikes. So there IS something to be said about routinely working out with poles, heavier packs, shoes, etc. — to condition oneself — but then switch to UL gear when actually hiking — to "double" the enjoyment.

These GG poles. I think I read someone say you should probably use something for "substantial" if your trekking poles are a part of your shelter?

Jim W., I totally agree, my biggest problem with them as well is vanity. Luckily for me, I can get past that because I am only a 15 minute bike ride from the nearest trailhead, and that's a mountain leading into the entire easy bay coast range park system, ie, I can go as far as I want any time I want. But I totally feel the self-consciousness. I've found the ideal solution is going so fast that it's almost like running, that seems to help, but I wouldn't use them on the flats of LA either, that's for sure. Or here. But in terms of workout per minute, these are the best way to maximize that while walking that I've found so far.

By the way, I speak as someone who always hated trekking poles and hated everything about them, especially the people who used them, so they had to work at convincing me. First gear I've gotten that competes with my love for bikes, which is saying a lot. But it is of course totally a personal preference.

So far by the way, I find that the biggest downside is the speed, I find it much harder to pay attention to the trail and to see what's' actually around me, not sure if that's something that will change as I get more used to them, or if it's an actual function of changing the brain into being a four legged creature running along a trail. Another downside is that now I realize I'll always have these on any backpacking trip, makes me think, well, why not get a trekking pole supported tent, or even better, make one? Oh, the dilemmas…

By the way, I'm using Black Diamond ergo cork trail poles, about 9oz with that rubber grib below the cork, which I never use, so I'm debating cutting that off, which will make them about 8 oz give or take, each. Also worth noting is that the strap is well padded and very comfortable, so that has to be considered in the weight as well, I could have a lighter strap but it would suck.

"I used to ride bikes and hike a LOT. My legs were like tree trunks and my arms like toothpicks. After a bunch of years raising kids my cardio capacity is way down but my legs are still pretty strong. My weakest link for hiking is the heart/lung/energy delivery system, not my legs. Poles require energy so using them impacts my weakest link. (But my knees are a weak link so I use the poles on steep terrain). I can walk faster on the flats with poles, but then I bonk."

Same here, actually. Without consciously thinking about it, I find that I habitually stack my poles in the side pockets of my pack when going uphill — my legs are plenty strong, they do not need any assist from poles — whereas my cardio doesn't need the extra workout when already trying to climb a tough stretch.

But when going downhill, out come the poles — both to protect my knees and ankles — and to steady myself.

I use 'mids, and have just recieved a Trailstar.
Thin UL carbon trekking poles flexed too much under vertical compression for my liking. And that was without any storm force winds. I want to sleep at night, and not worry about my shelter going the way of the pear during a storm.

i love the way you people never over-think stuff, my puny little mind wouldnt be able to handle it

I've been using poles for over 15 years and have bought poles for my father (75yo on the Kona side of the Big Island) and for my wife. My latest poles are 3 section REI CF Peak UL poles (made by Komperdell?), they weigh 6.75 oz each with straps and baskets. I haven't had any indication that these poles are not strong enough for my shelter needs or my hiking loads (51yo, 210#)

I hiked with a staff when I was younger, but in my mid 30's, made the switch to poles. For me, they are not optional when I hit the trail, everything in my area is mountainous, groomed trail or not. The poles add speed going uphill and down while protecting my body, limbs and joints from the constant impact and potential trip and falls. I have gone on a couple of unexpected day hikes in the last couple of years, each time I really notice that I have to go much slower without my poles (strolling at the beach not included). With the poles, I find that I can pay more attention to the surrounding area, rather than focus on my footing.

While I recognize that poles aren't for everyone, each of my friends that I have introduced to poles has become a convert. For me they are a huge plus, making my hikes more comfortable and enjoyable.

Eric

PS. My friends all used to make fun of my headlamps too, until they used one.

To start, as a rough average, two out of three people I come across that have poles , don't use them correctly..
That gives me a good indicationof why "they don't work" for some.
Not that I think everybody should use them.
For me they work when I have at least 10kg on my back, particularly on reasonably steep gradients.

From Nik
Granted, people with lingering injuries or aging joints may find them extremely valuable, and allow them to hike where they might not be able to do so without them. Folks who use them because they are overweight would probably be much happier if they shed the excess pounds and left the poles at home
.
Well I don't have any lingering injuries , nor particularly aging joints and I don't think I am all that overweight, but they work for me…

those poles*
From Mike
Some of us non-desert living folk find them a great help in river crossings, snow fields, shelter support, etc, etc,….
Me too…

From Craig:
But as a runner, here's what I don't understand:
Just about any running coach, especially those who specialize in distance running and achieving efficiency, will tell runners to keep arms, shoulders, and hands as relaxed as possible to conserve energy and maintain a smoother form. Any distance runner knows that excessive tension in the arms, shoulders, and hands, especially over long distances, is tiring, if not painful.

Trekking poles seem to run totally contrary to this idea of conservation, yet somehow are claimed to boost efficiency

Very simple (for me…) It is much easier for me to go up steep hills as well as coming down if I have some weight, see premise, with poles than without.
I started mountain walking when I was 5 or 6 , 50 years later I think that I have a bit of an idea of what works and what doesn't, for me.
If it is or not "scientific" I really don't care… but again this is me , others can feel free to disagree.
BTW, ever noticed how "science" changes its mind every few years ? (what works ,what does not? )
I just listen to what my body is telling me.
Franco
*Addressing directly the OP's question, yes those GG poles (about half of the weight of mine) felt a lot lighter in use and at the end of the day my arms were less fatigued.
In fact that is when I discovered that my arms do become fatigued.
I alternated using my BD and those GG for a few days.
The reasons why I then carried on using the BD were because I love the simplicity and reliability of the Flick Lock (I adjust them as I go up and down) and yes because I don't want them to fail on me during a river crossing (I can't swim…) nor holding my shelter up.

Am definitely a fan of poles going down hill and on wet trails and stream crossings. and the pole to my Tarptent.

on flat and uphill terrain i stow them and since they are BD carbon fibers i don't notice the change. I can tell the difference while hiking between my CF's and my girlfriends aluminum poles.

after 15+ years of competitive soccer, 5 years of track and a general disregard for my knees while backpacking or anything else having poles to take the extra pounding on the way down and extra balance on wet rocky trails (NH/VT anyone?) they are worth the weight penalty now. (and i'm only 31)

Different terrain and trail style has a pretty big effect. the Kings canyon trails i did on a trip were much more graded and switchbacked than the White Mtn up and over style.

trail to Mt. Isolation in the Whites…

"Just about any running coach, especially those who specialize in distance running and achieving efficiency, will tell runners to keep arms, shoulders, and hands as relaxed as possible to conserve energy and maintain a smoother form. Any distance runner knows that excessive tension in the arms, shoulders, and hands, especially over long distances, is tiring, if not painful."

+1 Tried and true advice.

"Trekking poles seem to run totally contrary to this idea of conservation, yet somehow are claimed to boost efficiency."

They will take a little more energy, just due to the weight. But that has to be weighed against the benerfits gained in stability and offloading work from the quads, thereby conserving precious glycogen stores for use later in the day.

I think the arm tension and fatigue people mention has a lot to do with how they grip the poles. If you are gripping/squeezing the handles all day, as most people seem to, with a strap wrapped around the wrists, tension and fatigue are bound to accumulate. Personally, I have chosen to "cup" the handle from above and control it by grasping it lightly between my thumb and middle finger with the ring finger there to support if necessary, which serve as an axis to swing the tip forward at the end of each step with a slight lift of my forearm. For propulsion, I just press the palm of my hand against the top of the handle and push. The mechanics sort of imitate a spear throwing stick. I can do this all day, on trail and off, with no fatigue, and I am not a muscle bound knuckle dragger by a long shot. The technique also allows a much wider range of motion, sort of like a universal joint, valuable for tip placement. Holding a pole by gripping the handle parallel to the pole shaft forces you to flex the wrist from side to side,i.e. from thumb side to little finger side, which is not the wrist's natural flexing axis, instead of up and down.

Edited to change ring finger to middle finger. I mis-visualized as I was typing. Sorry for the brain fahrt.

Tom Kirchner hikes uphill at a pretty fast clip. But his true forte is going downhill — putting teens and 20-somethings to shame. So yes, he knows a few things about using poles. I still really hate him…

"To illustrate what I'm saying, imagine adding a 5 lbs weight each to the bottom your trekking poles vs. adding 5 lbs to your pack. It would totally suck. You could hardly walk. 5 lbs in your pack on the other hand would slow you a bit, but not nearly as much. "

Dan,
Strictly speaking you don't swing the pole.
If you are on flat ground the pole forms an aprox. 60 degree angle with the ground. You pretty much maintain that angle through the motion. You do raise the pole with your shoulder maintaining that angle.
Go to about 20 sec. in this video – not the best – but it is all I got.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=injFYOTXE-0

Going down hill – I would call it swinging it – but you are going down so not much energy expended.

Going up hill – close call between swinging and raising it up.

Franco said,

"Very simple (for me…) It is much easier for me to go up steep hills as well as coming down if I have some weight, see premise, with poles than without."

—-

I think this is the point, there is no right way (with or sans poles) and everyone does what works best for them. And I am not trying to convince anyone one way or the other.

Seems that most hills were I walk are covered with all kinds of rocks and debris, with patches of plain old dirt. I find that concentrating on where I will place four items (normally two at a time) takes much longer than one item at a time. Also many steps are little skips from rock to rock, especially as I go down, and poles don't help matters.

I will also state that I am sure I do NOT know how to properly use trekking poles, especially given my LT4s do not have straps. Actually my main reason for getting them was to buy two tarp poles that could double as walking aids. I find that most of the time I just carry them parallel to the ground, not swinging them at all, or strapped to my pack, which makes them bulkier than a couple tent poles.

So… if someone feels poles are an advantage, by all means use them. If someone is on the fence, then here is my opinion. And it is just an opinion; good, bad, or neither :)

"Strictly speaking you don't swing the pole."

Ultimately it comes down to this -since a pole tip is planted part of the time, when it is moving it has to move faster than you are to keep up. You could swing just the tip, or move the entire pole and your hand, but in any scenario you need to accelerate at least part of the pole up to a high speed with every step. So you're repeatedly accelerating the weight.

I think hiking poles are great. I'm just arguing that the weight of the poles is felt to a higher degree than weight in your backpack, so you need to choose poles wisely.

Nick, I definitely think practice with them helps a lot and takes a lot of the concentration out of it. As a skier for much of my life pole planting is second nature and going fast on flat trails with them is very much like skiing. going down hills is a lot like steep skiing when you plant ahead of you and move your body around it. stream crossings you can go across places you may not want to without them and save time not looking around.

I do think it is silly for people to use them on flat ground as i don't see the benefit o it but if it motivates them to get out there then that is cool

like someone else stated i do not use my straps at all. i hold the bottom of the grip with my thumb and forefinger only and the lightest flick kicks the pole out ahead of me.

"Strictly speaking you don't swing the pole."

Call it what you want, but in almost all circumstances the bottom tip of the pole covers more distance than the handle does, which I call swinging. The exception would be steep descending/ascending."

Dan,
I may not have explained myself well as to the swinging. The tip does not move faster than the handle.
Imagine that throughout the motion, on flat ground, the pole maintains a 60 degree angle with the ground. It does not get swung in front of you. Your shoulder muscles push back for thrust. Then you raise the pole, placing your hand in front of you, maintaining the 60 degree angle, lower the pole to the ground, mainlining the 60 degree angle. The tip of the pole never goes in front of the handle.

In the video, I recommended you watch starting at 20 seconds to show the angle – nothing else.

I hope this helps.

"going down hills is a lot like steep skiing when you plant ahead of you and move your body around it….. like someone else stated i do not use my straps at all. i hold the bottom of the grip with my thumb and forefinger only and the lightest flick kicks the pole out ahead of me."

+1 With practice it becomes second nature and you develop a spatial awareness of where the tips are akin to that a seasoned hiker has in his feet. I call it "eyes in my feet" and now "eyes in my pole tips". Negotiating terrain becomes a matter of reading the terrain on the move without consciously thinking of your poles any more than you do your feet. It just happens. Or course there are limits. On some terrain you definitely stop and think about where you are putting your feet and, in those cases, you poles are likely to be stowed because you are going to need your hands for other purposes.

"So yes, he knows a few things about using poles."

Thanks for the kind words, Ben, even if they're not true. ;)

"I still really hate him…"

Ah. That's more like it.

Apart from difficult areas (IE when you really slow down , one step at a time…) if you are looking at where you put the pole tips , that is a good indication that you are not doing it right and that possibly you should not use poles.
Same as you should not look at where you put your feet (apart from….)
Franco

Yep, i'm waiting to skewer a toad one of these days. Where i usually pole tap (i dont really plant unless i'm fully weighting it) is RIGHT where toads like to hang out beside the trail. it will be a one in a million shot but this summer i am planning 5 weeks on the trail soooooooo it could happen.

poles are also great for pushing away wet growth along narrow trails to keep your pants/feet drier.