Going Backpacking for 2 years with my brother and my dog.

[Ken Thompson]

Nice dream. Harsh reality welcomes you. It's not 1920 anymore. Too bad really.

My dogs are happier at home.

[Randy Nelson]

@willspower3 "More miles, more extreme conditions, and a longer duration than they are used to or designed to handle."

For the most part, I'm with you David, And I haven't thru hiked yet. Hopefully soon. But for the most part, everything you mentioned could have been avoided by keeping the dogs on a leash. It's hard for a dog to bug somebody when they are at your side and under your control. But I'd have to disagree that a dog is designed to handle less miles than I am. I have 2 and no matter how hard I think a hike is, when I get home, close the gate, and let the dog out of the truck to see the other, they almost always go off for some high speed passes around the property as I ease myself into my easy chair. I love to walk but there's no way I'll ever out walk one of my dogs.

[David Adair]

>Maybe I'm a bit biased since I have had well over a dozen dogs act aggressively towards me in 2 thru hikes without provocation …<

That's odd… most dogs have an uncanny sense of character.

[David Wills]

I agree about the leash. If the dogs I have seen were kept on a leash, very few of my negative experiences would have ever happened. 3 or 4 leashed dogs have still lunged at me on trail including a huge Mastiff in New Jersey whose owner was barely able to control it. Sadly, very few hiking dogs are leashed. Well under 50% regardless of leash laws. The attitude of the dog owners often seems to be that their pets are autonomous and responsible, which I think goes back to the idea that they are personified as 'family'. The responsibility no longer lies with the owner where it belongs.

A dog can surely handle a few days of hard hiking. Thru hiking involves months of 20 or so miles per day. The stress accumulates on dogs and people. People are in a position to handle it better. The dog can't tell the owner about their sore paws or joints until it hurts so much they are limping. Will the owner immediately take a few rest days? Who knows. As was mentioned earlier, a thru hiker would have to hike the dogs hike to even consider it humane.

[David Wills]

"That's odd… most dogs have an uncanny sense of character."

I do fine with dogs in normal life. I don't know how many thru hikers you have come across, but they can seem as much animal as human. Big beards, bad smell, packs, and poles could surely surprise a dog or cause them to be protective.

Nice Ad Hominem BTW…

[a b]

This thread comes up on the email list serv PCT-L every year.
If you want to take your dog on the PCT, go for it.
Just think carefully about how it might impact the health of your dog.
The first 700 miles of the PCT in Southern California are chaparral country.
It is one thing for a human with sweat glands to walk through the San Gorgonio or the Mojave at 100+ degrees with water sources 20 miles or more apart.. it is quite another for a dog.
Lets think about this.. The air is 100 degrees, the ground is 150 degrees. The human stands 6 feet off the ground. The dog stands 2 feet off the ground.
Heat Exhaustion is what you will be worried about regarding your pooch early on.
The year i hiked, 2009, I heard about a few people that started with their dogs. Most of them sent them home to stay with family or friends early on.
I heard of at least one couple that upon realizing their dog was having a hard time, found a trail angel that was willing to kennel the dog for them until they crossed the Sierra section and then hitched back for their pet.. hitched back up again and continued on.
If it works out and your dog is doing fine, at least have a plan to leave it with someone for the Sierra Nevada.
It would be a very bad idea to try and bring a dog through the Sierra Nevada and over the snowbound passes found on a Northbound hike.
Here are pictures taken in early juneof 2009 on my PCT thru hike.
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I am not saying don't bring your dog. I even like the idea even though I am not a dog owner myself.
I am just recommending having a plan for your pooch in case you need to put him/her somewhere for certain sections of the PCT.
Maybe you have a friend on the west coast or you can contact someone via PCT-L that might be willing to kennel your dog for you if neccesary.
This is the kind of thing you want to plan in advance for the safety of your dog.
Fortunately there are a zillion really great folks all along the PCT that would be willing to help you in any way.
I can't promise it would be free but I bet you could work something reasonable out with someone for a short term kennel.
The one place where dogs really seem to be all over the PCT, and loving it, are Oregon and Washington.
Goodluck with your planning!
You and you brother are going to love the PCT! I hope it all works out and you can bring your dog for some of the trail as well!

[Dirk Rabdau]

I will chime in here as another guy who had a great time hiking the PCT. I hiked in 2009 as well and can say without question that I urge you to reconsider your position. Simply, the trail travels through areas where dogs are prohibited. They do this for a reason, and the reason has to do with preserving wildlife habitat and maintaining ecosystems. The wants of thru-hikers aren't necessarily as compelling an argument.

Like Matt discussed, the hike in Southern California can be particularly tough on dogs. It was incredibly hot in Southern California in 2009, water was not plentiful and then there were many snake encounters that may have gone very differently had a dog been leashed to me. Further, I carried upwards of 12 pounds of water on some stretches on top of the gear and food weight.

Really, it's hard enough to be responsible for yourself. Think about the responsibility that comes with having a dog along. And if something were to happen to that dog, what are you going to do? What happens if you do get ejected from a National Park? What happens when you need to get a ride into town and you have a wet dog with you? It can be tough to hitch a ride into town sometimes; I imagine a lot of people aren't too crazy about the idea of two dirty hikers and their big dog in the back of their car.

I say these things out of love for the trail and thru hiking in general. It's a great experience, but with that experience, comes a responsibility to set the example. As a thru hiker, you should represent the best of the back country ethic, not the cynical, "The rules don't apply to me because I am thru hiking!" mentality.

Finally, if you do decide to bring a dog with you into central and south America, do read the regulations. There is paperwork you need to have with you to be successful.

Have fun on your trip!

[David Adair]

It's not so much the dog thing that is bothersome. Its the idea that we should feel some sense of entitlement to be free of all things inconsistent with our ideal experience.

Things that bother me on the trails:
annoying dogs
boisterous children
large groups
bright clothing
loud laughing
camouflage
perfume
public displays of affection
fat people (well other fat people)
horse p00p
Horses and inconsiderate horse people
hunters

the list just goes on and on…
I am so special that I should not have to tolerate any of these things. We need rules…and more rules. At some point all the rules become more oppressive than the things we are being protected from. Less rules- more tolerance and consideration.

[Eugene Smith]

Justin Lichter aka "Trauma" and his border collie/St. Bernard mix named Yoni did a 10,000 mile Triple Crown in 356 days, but he raised his dog on the trail since it was a pup.

Here's an interview from a few years ago where Justin discusses hiking with Yoni and how he deals with animals, people, ticks, gear, injuries, food, etc…. the dog part is somewhere in the middle of the interview.

Trauma and Yoni- 10,000 miles

Best of luck in your travels whatever you decide.

[Dirk Rabdau]

David –

I understand and even agree on many levels with your position. But in the case of selected National Parks on the PCT, dogs are prohibited. This is spelled out in the regulations. It is my understanding that these rules were enacted as a protective measure for the wildlife in those parks. If one doesn't like the rules – or disagrees with the rules – by all means advocate for change.

If one wants to hike with the dogs in other areas of the PCT, great! But I have a hard time buying the argument that dog owners are being oppressed in this circumstance – there are other paths that can be taken around parks. Yes, some of these are lengthy but other arrangements can be made.

But let's take this one step further – mountains bikes in the wilderness (or on the PCT). They are prohibited because mechanical transport is prohibited, of which bikes are included. Are mountain bikers being oppressed?

We all break the rules on occasion – but the tyranny of the masses is potentially as debilitating of a force as is excessive regulation. And certainly, there are numerous laws and regulations that are plain onerous. But in the case of the parks, many of the rules came as a result of behaviors not in the best interest of the parks themselves.

Dirk

[Sabine Funk]

Knowing some Backcountry LEOs I can guarantee you that if they see you in a National Park you will be in big trouble. But that's also for the protection of your dog. On such a hike you will definitely see a few bears. Did you ever think about what will happen if your dog starts barking at a bear – or better – a bear with cups???

[David Wills]

David,
Its a fair argument to say people should be reasonably courteous and responsible for their behavior and that of their pets. I am no more entitled to the benefits of this than others, but just because we are in the woods doesn't mean people can act however they feel. Of your list of bothers, most of them would be avoided if everyone was following the seven LNT principles or wearing only tan or grey clothing.

[Eugene Smith]

If horseback riding is allowed then dogs should be as well IMO. Horses $h!t all over the place incessantly, their owners don't pack that junk out, they ruin trails, spoil sites, and require a tremendous amount of resources just to get the things to the trailhead and sustain their activity while out in the backcountry.

I'm not saying that violating a "No Dogs" allowed policy is acceptable, but I sure think in light of pack mules, horses, and other various pack animals being acceptable in many places where dogs are not that the restriction is a bit silly.

[David Olsen]

This is great Dave A!

Things that bother me on the trails:
annoying dogs
boisterous children
large groups
bright clothing
loud laughing
camouflage
perfume
public displays of affection
fat people (well other fat people)
horse p00p
Horses and inconsiderate horse people
hunters

[Ben W.]

Let me start of by saying that I am a huge dog lover. My wife worked at a vetinary hospital and we take our dogs everywhere we possible can; so much so that they actually prefer to be in the car than anywhere else.

We used to take our dogs on long multi-day backcountry hikes on a regular basis. The biggest issue we confronted is that like a previous poster mentioned- you will have to hike according to your dog. You don't just stop when you're thirsty or tired. You have start thinking about your dog and it's not always easy to tell what they need.

Because dogs are pack animals they will over extend themselves to keep up with you.
It's actually very difficult to pay sufficient attention to make sure the are ok. Somethings such as dehydration are difficult to notice (their gums turn white). I've had serveal instances when our pups cramped up and then had to stop for the day or cut trips short. Once our dogs were older were able to tell when they were uncomfortable and fortunately they were able to communicate with us. For instance they would try to lick our lips when they were thirsty. But that took a while to develop.

Lastly, while Mexico may allow you to take your dog into Mexico, the US will likely require that you quarantine your dog when you return. This can be from anywhere from a few weeks to several months.

I can understand why you would want to share such a wonderful experience with your dog. I'm not saying to not take your dog. You know his/her temperment, activity level, etc. best. Just remember that he/she is your responsabilty and you have to take their well being into account.

[David Wills]

+1 Eugene. Horse owners shouldn't get a free pass to ruin the backcountry. Approaching a horse camp makes picking up a discarded Snickers wrapper seem futile.

[David Thomas]

>Because dogs are pack animals they will over extend themselves to keep up with you."

Reading this gave me an idea to suggest to the OP:

Dog mushers have some of the same issues, magnified many times. 16 dogs, bitter cold, sometimes too hot (for their extreme exertion level), dehydration, infectious diseases; all while running 1,100 miles in 2 weeks. I know 7 Iditarod mushers and they are all highly attuned to these issues.

And it's not just the 1,100 miles in March. It's also 2,000+ training miles on each dog during the winter. And even will all that prep and knowledge and care, half the dogs get dropped and flown back. Okay, it's a race and "you're only as fast as your slowest dog" so they drop dogs early and often. But still, they start with their best 16 out of 40 to 200 dogs in their kennel.

Get a book on dog mushing. It will cover foot care, health, nutrition, booties, ice and snow travel, run/rest cycles, etc, etc.

And have a perfect "heal", "come" and "leave it" before you start. I mean rock-solid on those, "leave it" that works for a pound of cheese or a cat. "Heal" past a yelling person. "Come" even from a food bowl. For your sake, your dog's sake, and all the other hikers on the trail.

And despite all the issues on the PCT, I'd be more worried about issues south of the border.

[David Thomas]

+2 Eugene, on horses being a pain. And what is it about burro p1ss that inspires all the others to p1ss in the same spot and make a fly-ridden, stinky mud puddle all across the trail? Grrr.

Why allow 1500-pound horses that carry one person when a 20-pound mountain bike can do that same thing? With the horse crap, p1ss, and while the MBer might not always yield, he COULD, the horsepacker might not have that control.

Any creatures, 2- or 4-legged that can't stand patiently by the side of the trail to let others pass should stay on private land, IMNSHO.

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

I like the list of things that annoy me :)

However, as much as I don't always care for horses on the trail , historically they were the mode of transportation. I think people get way to touchy on all this. First, even if no one ever took a dog or a horse in the wilderness, there will still be Deer and Elk droppings, Bear Scat, Coyote crap, perhaps goat or sheep. So the crap is part of the wilderness experience. A herd of Elk will tear up a trail as bad as horses. If you want to avoid horses, then go off trail and in places they can not go, but you will likely run into Elk or Bear scat then. Bear piles can be a lot messier than a horse pile.

As for dogs, I have not met a younger dog (less than 8) that could not do 20 mile days everyday, if they were in shape. I even took a mini weenie on 20 mile days, up 13ers and such and she loved it. You think I could keep her at home, when I was getting my hiking stuff ready ? No way. My dogs never wear booties (does a coyote or wolf ?) and often travel on snow / ice / talus and scree (as do coyotes and wolves). They are plenty capable creatures. I've had a dog get sick once from drinking from a pond by mine tailings, but it puked and felt better later.

Protecting wildlife , putting a canine on a leash is not protecting them, it's giving them a false sense of security. Animals have predators, it's natural. The distinction between a wolf, coyote and house pet is small, in fact my youngest Border Collie is part Coyote.

A leash is a good idea, when around other folks that may not be dog lovers. And in the NPS rules are what they are. Add to my list of things that annoy me: An obsession with rules :)

[David Olsen]

Dog feet can indeed by injured by walking on rough terrain. I had a coonhound that could
keep up on a 25 mile mountainbike ride on trails and be ready for more, but let her walk over High Sierra Granite or Oregon Lava for a few days, and she would wear her toenails to the quick and beyond and blister and tear her pads. A few miles of running downhill on pavement keeping up with a Mtn Bike would do the same. Canvas boots taped on with athletic
tape was all it took for prevention.

Dogs go snow blind too.

[Dustin Short]

Kevin, your information is rather limited.

Horses are only short term historical. They were introduced by the Spanish in the 1500s and only really gained popularity in the 1800s. Before that it had been thousands of years since there were wild horses roaming the Americas. Theres some old supposedly native American saying of "for bring us the horse, we can almost forgive the whiteman for bringing us firewater" which illustrates just how not historical the horse is. Also the issue is a matter of density. Horse teams (how often do you see a single horse rider in the backcountry?) are confined to a single trail that is also shared by hikers. The horse scat is concentrated on that one by way. Also horses wear steel plates on their feet, which as far as I know, no wild animal does the same. So trying to even claim that horses have similar effects as wild animals is laughable.

The same is true of dogs, I agree that most dogs in shape are actually great hiking partners than can keep up (rhodesians will probably outperform even the best hikers at that). But still they aren't that reminiscent of wild canids. They may have the same genetic code as wolves but they're bred for an entirely different temperament. Barking is a clear sign of tameness (look up russian foxes that bark). Your entire bit about putting dogs on a leash is hard to follow due to the grammar, I'm not sure if you're saying that dogs are not protected or wildlife is not protected, but either way it's a thin thread. You're applying humanistic thought processes (sense of security) to instinctual behavior which doesn't really fly in the scientific world.

[Hiking Malto]

Cows do more damage to the PCT then horse and dogs combined, especially to the water.

There is a room over on the Whiteblaze.com site dedicated to dogs on the Trail. There seems to be more folks that do the AT than the PCT, fewer restricted areas and more overall hikers. I would never take a dog myself but I can see the desire to do so. My biggest concern would actually be the Sierra stream crossings. Depending on the conditions it's a big enough chore to get yourself safely across without worrying about a dog. Whatever you do it will work out.

[Kevin @ Seek Outside]

There are still wild horse within 100 miles of where I am, and yes I agree it's only been since the 1600's or so for domestic horses, but it was still a historical way of travel on our lands. I personally don't like how horses tear things up, but it doesn't bother me enough to complain and perhaps people that would not get a chance to enjoy the wilderness on foot, get to enjoy it without an ATV so I'm cool with it. A herd of Elk will tear things up as bad if not worse than a couple horses period. I've also seen bear scat, every 50 feet for a couple miles on a mountain side. Face it, there's crap in the woods, in the real woods.

As for leashes, I don't think we are doing the animals a favor. Almost all animals have predators (deer for example), to leash the dogs up so they do not chase wildlife is to make the animals think a dog is not harmful to them providing a false sense of security to the animal. It's no different than if we walked in the woods, and all predators were on a leash, we would have a false sense of security. Now, I don't agree that dogs should just chase anything, but a well behaved dog is fine off leash. I've sat an observed 50 head of Elk from 100 yards with my dogs at my side.

If you crave more solitude, less horses or less dogs, it's pretty easy to find just get off the main trails, bushwhack, follow game trails etc. When I'm out, and feeling non social, I just go off trail. My dogs have always been fine, following me over whatever mountain, canyons or off trail route I decide to go. Yes they step on my snowshoes when I'm breaking trail in deep snow, but they are happy to go and never show any signs of distress. To say a dog can't do things a human can, is silly. Sure certain breeds are better suited for certain things, but almost any good mountain dog is pretty capable with a little bit of break in period.

We can agree to disagree, but I stand by my thoughts on the subject.

[clint gorbett]

Thanks for all the info, my dog has absolutely no problem in snow with his ideterod booties. The comments left here have influenced me to consider leaving him with my mother and father for the sierras. I live in Southern Oregon currently and my dog has been on a hike or an overnight backpacking trip every single day for the last seven months, he is 14 months old now. I have done countless 25 mile days with him and he is sitting at camp with a stick in his mouth ready for fetch while we setup our tarp every time. I cannot out hike my dog even when we are bushwhacking through miles of waist high thorn brush and hopping fences as we were last night/this morning, both of witch are hard for dogs.
For the people who claim a dog is not meant as a pack animal or for hiking etc. Many dogs are bred for a specific purpose. Rottweiler's for example are called "butchers dogs" because when the Romans brought Mastiffs to the rest of Europe, Rottweiler's were used specifically for hauling the carts of meat for butchers. Husky's for pulling sleds etc.
The reason I am perhaps more staunch than most on taking my dog on the PCT is because my Father took the Father of my dog on the PCT a few years ago and had a blast.
From what I have read about South America it seems you just need to carry certain papers stating your dog has had its various shots as well as get a letter from the embassy in D.C which does not sound particularly hard. Keep the comments coming!
Additionally on a gear related note. I'm currently running a layer system of Wool long underwear, wool sweater,down vest and my out wind/rain shell. I'm looking for a new layer to replace the sweater that would be either much warmer or much more versatile in multiple climates. Any help?

[Michael L]

Kevin

The wild horses were introduced. You understand, yes?

Aske Mesa verde rangers what they think of horses. They are an invasive species that destroys natural habitat.

You keep throwing out examples like elk. Elk herds on trails are lot less common then a pack train. Elk live off the land. The pack horses can't.

And your leash argument in quite frankly inane. The natural animals aren't going to get a false sense of security from leashed dogs. We have to put up with horses but I wish we didn't. I shouldn't have to go hike of trail to avoid your dogs if they are banned in a particular area. I pick trails often that ban dogs and horses particularly because they do ban them.

And you continue to ignore the damage your dogs do. They can introduce non native parasites and diseases. Not a good thing just so you can hike with a dog.

[Author]

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