Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems

[Roger Caffin]

> how you can align your map and compass accurately to one degree if you don't know "exactly" where you are?
'Alignment' is NOT the same as 'Location'. Very different in fact.

> an area that has an abundance of natural land features that show up on your map.
Actually, our area sound like BC. LOTs of forest with NO visibility. Forested plateau country – with canyons.

Yes, I know about map errors. Chuckle! Some of our topo maps are notorious. Some of them show gentle spurs with contours; reality is that very often those contour lines translate into decent cliff lines. Watersheds and ridges are usually not too bad though.

I have no objection at all to people preferring to use a GPS instead of a compass. It's a free world. But I will strongly refute the idea that the GPS has replaced the compass. NO WAY!

Cheers

[Jonathan Pratt]

Now let's have more articles on BPL about trips, techniques and experiences. Too much gear talk – almost obsessive and getting boring…

BPL helped me move from a heavy pack to lighter one. Thank you. It's helped my back and knees, allows me to travel further and arrive in better condition. It's been like moving from Economy to Business class…

But now I want to read about techniques, skills and knowledge as well as trips and these seem to be lacking on the site.

What does BPL stand for these days?

[Bob Gross]

"But I will strongly refute the idea that the GPS has replaced the compass."

Besides, if you are standing still, the GPS receiver cannot tell you which way you are facing. In that respect, it can't tell north from south. Once you start moving, the GPS receiver can tell you which way you are moving, but it still can't tell you for sure which way you are facing. That's a big deal in the nautical environment.

Now, some of the wise GPS manufacturers have put a compass function into their normal GPS receivers. That's not such a bad idea. However, if that is a fluxgate compass, then it still requires battery power to operate.

Lots of GPS users complain about the lack of accuracy in positioning. Probably it is a lack of accuracy in the built-in map database, and the basic GPS receiver position data is very close. I suggest you take the lat/long numbers and find those on a paper map, and that will be very close.

–B.G.–

[Luke Schmidt]

In defense of the former gear shop I always got good customer service. Addie and Sam where very easy to work with when there were some complications (long story but basically I was paying them for things at the same time BPL owed me money for an article so it got complicated).
In defense of Ryan, I might have written the article so there'd be less chance of confusion (I doublt he'd bash McHale packs for example, they seem to be the only pack he's used consistantly over long period). That said he's tried a lot more gear out than I have. If he thinks things could be better I'm inclined to at least listen.
Whether or not the cottage gear makers are "stagnant" is partly a question of perspective. On the one hand there have been some cool new ideas lately. On the other hand I think if you compare the big gear makers to the cottage makers the big companies are offering some nice, relatively light gear that your average Joe can use. Compared to that cottage gear makers haven't changed there basic offerings all that much in five years. Basically unless I want to go SUL there is less and less reason for me to go to a cottage gear maker than REI.

[Jamie Shortt]

reposted on following page

[Luke Schmidt]

Good points Jamie, I hadn't really thought about exactly WHEN it became possible to put together an UL kit with mainstream gear so maybe things haven't changed all that much.
My only difference with your points would be to say that while UL gear has always been available I think its becoming easier to use. For exampe we now have lightweight double walled tents, internal frame packs, and inflatable pads. You can go quit light without learning any new skills or the tradeoffs that you would have made 5 or 10 years ago for the same baseweight. For a lot of people a 12 pound baseweight of mainstream gear thats easy to use will be a better value than a 7 pound baseweight with exotic gear and a steeper learning curve. Now of course WE like to get that 7 (or 4 pound baseweight) but we're also the purists.

[Jamie Shortt]

Luke, Thanks for the reply. Since my post landed at the end of the previous page, I am reposting it in hopes to get some further discussion going….

I have waited to reply to this article so I could consider my response. On the surface I agreed with everything written, but something just did not sit right. Let me start with what I took as the main points of the article…

1 – There is benefit in consuming/owning less gear that applies to the entire sport off backpacking much like it does with respect to any one trip. Taking/owning less can bring us more happiness than the superficial joy of owning lots of things.

2 – Cottage manufactures have not delivered significant innovations over the past year to warrant buying/consuming new gear for those already at UL levels.

3 – Main stream manufacturers have made advancements over the last few years that make them a viable/potentially better alternative to cottage made gear.

The first point I absolutely get. I have begun my own minimalistic journey within my life so I can’t agree more with one looking at the gear they accumulate and consider when enough is enough. Simplifying ones gear closet would be a great BPL article.

It is points 2 & 3 that confuse me. I think we have seen many significant innovations over the last 1-2 years within the cottage world. Many have been listed in the responses. Is the innovation in this short period any reason to replace existing items? Probably not unless you are new to the UL world, which is maybe the point Ryan is making. I can agree with this, but I would argue that this is no different than 5 years ago. If you owned a Granite Gear Virga pack 5 years ago has there been a serious innovation since then that warranted a true need for a new pack?

What confuses me more is the idea that main stream manufacturers have suddenly begun to catch up to cottage making them a viable alternative or even better alternative to cottage made gear. I agree that main stream gear is a viable alternative to cottage gear, but I disagree that this anything new nor has the gap become more narrow.

I made my first sub 5 lb trip almost 4 years ago. I used gear primarily from main stream manufacturers and gear that had been available years prior. I have always encouraged people to look at main stream manufactures because it is easy to do for new ULer’s and there is a lot of great mainstream gear. You need less skill, knowledge, and patience to buy mainstream gear. Some time ago I published an UL gear list with gear entirely from REI (http://www.lytw8.com/Gear_Lists.html)* to demonstrate this. So I agree on the point, but disagree that this as something new to the market.

Can someone enlighten me (pun intended) as to the recent advancements made by mainstream manufactures that make them a better alternative in 2011-2012 that was not the case 5 years ago? To me this looks more like a shift in BPL to a mainstream market than it does a lack of innovation from cottage manufacturers or mainstream manufactures catching up. I don’t see this as wrong, but I would argue if you want the lightest most innovative gear continue to look to the cottage and recently the MYOG world. I hope BPL doesn’t abandon these groups.

In summary I don’t disagree with the arguments made about gear needs or the ability of main stream manufactures to fill this need. I do disagree that this is something new; rather I think it is a change in individual perspective.

Agree or disagree with everything written I applaud Ryan for writing such a bold article. I really like things that make you think hard, and this one has done just that. Thanks to all for the thoughtful dialogue.

Jamie

* For a sub 7 pound base weight from mainstream manufacturers consider a Granite Gear Virga Pack, Marmot Hydrogen Sleeping Bag, Golite Poncho Tarp, Montbell Dry-Tec bivy and UL down inner jacket. All are great gear that has been around for awhile and gear that I have used. Also it is all gear that I have replaced with cottage/MYOG gear and no longer sits in my closet. It sits in the hands of light weight backpackers across the country mostly thanks to BPL gear swap.

[Michael L]

Jamie

Nice post…on the iPhone do I won't do it justice.

2. I think it has slowed. I don't see any ground breaking innovations. Most new packs and shelters are the result of fabric innovations. But this is natural as a market matures. I don't see it as a criticism. As was mentioned, there are only so many ways you can keep warm with down bags, see a pack, or construct a shelter.

Barring a new invention in insulation… A newer better primaloft that breaks way past current standards, or a leap forwards in event fabrics…manufacturers can only do do much. So I do see the chemist or scientist making a new artificial material the first step needed before a new wave in big 3 innovation.

3. I do see major manufacturers catching up. Partly do to cottage like going lite going big time. Partly as a result of the gradual technology increasing. The pioneered cottage stuff is being copied by big boys. We have titanium gear at rei. We have higher quality down bags. We have the osprey hornet. We have jetboil ti. It isn't like this year is sudden in this regard. It has been gradual here too. But finally we are getting big time msnufacturers with OPTIONS for different lighter gear.

[Brian UL]

I agree with the posters that say that UL isn't new its just a change in mental perspective on the individual level.
Most all of the innovation comes from the development of new lighter, stronger materials. The cottage industry was simply more willing to sell gear made from these new materials and keep the designs streamlined. As mainstream gear makers become more willing to make gear from these same materials the fundamental difference will be considerably less. Also mainstream manufactures were and are less willing to design more functional gear with out all the bells and whistles that add weight. In rare cases they do and sometimes its an easy matter of getting out the scissors (mostly not).
The thing is mainstream gear makers are in a good position to make really good light durable gear but they instead use their resources to make overly complex gear that looks shiny and "high tech". there is something in the mainstream makers marketing departments that says that people don't want simple functional gear. Maybe it looks too old fashioned? Too simple to justify high prices? Too boring compared to the high tech flashy foam/color trim/racing stripes?
Personally my aesthetic goes twords the simple and functional. I also fondly remember when one kit was all I or anyone else ever needed ( except winter ).
What I would like to see is the cottage industry pushing higher quality and better customer service compared to the mainstream. Many already do this.
The cottage industry has a lot of really solid designs. I do think they may want to rethink trying to appeal to the "fringe". Lets face it, the fringe are too finicky. What they really want is customized gear and most just end up making their own. I think they like to see new gear that pushes the limits just to give them ideas. They are probably not going to buy it off the shelf so why waste time on that small market?
Instead focus on the much wider market that wants light, durable, effective, and reliable gear made to a high standard and preferably socially conscious.
Ultra weight conscious ( to the point of diminishing returns )
Ultra high quality ( smart design, durable, efficient )

[Jamie Shortt]

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming. I am truly trying to understand where this article is coming from, maybe I'm trying to read too much into it. But at the core I think Ryan is suggesting that mainstream gear is today a more viable alternative than it was some time ago. My opninion is that, if this is true that it has nothing to do with gear innovation, but rather peoples attitudes or possibly the market BPL wishes to serve.

My approach to gear…

I tend to have one list that I use for most of my backpacking. In the summer I use a different bag and move to a short sleeve shirt, and drop my puffy. Besides that it is one set of gear. It does change somewhat each time I go out. I enjoy trying out new approaches/gear, but as things move off my standard list they get sold. I do have a few items that need selling and they will likely show up over the next few months on gear swap.

I looked at my current gear list and here is the % distribution weight for the top 5 items.

Quilt – 29%
Shelter (bivy, tarp, & stakes) – 12%
WPB Shell Jacket – 11%
Down Jacket – 7%
Pack – 6%

So lets call these my big 5. If we are saying mainstream gear is catching up I assume this means mainstream gear has gotten better over say the last 5 years. Candidly I am not up on all the latest mainstream gear, but the items I would have bought/did buy from 5 years ago don't look much better today then they did then. So here are my big 5 from about 5 years ago.

Sleeping Bag – Marmot Hydrogen
Tent – MSR Hubba
WPB Jacket – OR Zealot
Down Jacket – MB Down Inner
Pack – Granite Gear Virga or Gregory G-Pack

So convince me now to buy new gear based on the advancements in mainstream gear from 2007 to 2012? Or if I was starting out today what should I buy that is a significant improvement over what I would have bought 5 years ago?

Jamie

[Ken Thompson]

Edit : Removed stupid post.

[Tom Clark]

Jamie,
Always good comments. It's interesting to see how the original "big three" have changed into your "big five." The wt % of your shelter has plummeted to 12%, and your raincoat is now a bigger proportino of total pack weight. Ray Jardine did a great job by looking at the main contributors of weight, aqnd maybe BPL should revisit that analysis for typical gear kits like you have done to show the biggest bang for the buck (buck = grams or $$$'s)…either in terms of lowering weight or where we could best utilize it (e.g., value of bivy vs. larger tarp).

Ken,
I suspect that Ryan is sitting back and listening for now. However, I (like others) hope that he has more personal involvement with BPL forums in 2012.

Tom

[David Goodyear]

What do you want Ryan to say? Could he say anything that wouldn't be dissected and analyzed to death?

He wrote an article and posted comments twice. It has been "quoted" and spewed about for 10 pages. There are those that agree and those that disagree. I don't see that anything positive can come from a tit-for-tat from the ceo of a website.

Dave

[Ken Thompson]

Edit. Removed stupid post.

[James holden]

Sleeping Bag – Marmot Hydrogen
Tent – MSR Hubba
WPB Jacket – OR Zealot
Down Jacket – MB Down Inner
Pack – Granite Gear Virga or Gregory G-Pack

Sleeping Bag – Marmot Hydrogen … same or one of the many light offerings from TNF, SD, or many other manufacturers
Tent – terra nova laser or even one of the lighter BA or other such tents from many other manufacturers
WPB Jacket – OR Zealot … same or for a bit or weight savings, TNF triumph, or marmot nano, or many other manufacturers
Down Jacket – MB Down Inner …MB EXL, or rab, or TNF, or something from many other manufacturers
Pack – Granite Gear Virga or Gregory G-Pack … same virga, or …TNF verto, dead bird cierzo 25, MEC travel light top loader, etc … for a bit of savings

notice how i keep saying many other manufacturers … because that type of gear is now quite commonly available

you missed the pad BTW … i suspect that would be significant in the weight

its not to the"weight" of a cottage setup … but it is "light enough" i suspect for many here … it is often on sale .. you may well be able to try it on in the store … and you may well be able to easily return it … and it has those "cool" brand logos to impress the bears …

if you look at tents i suspect youll see manufacturers lighten them all the time, or some makers are lightening their shelters while "fudging" the definition of 2p …. same with clothing, and packs, etc ..

while years ago there definitely was some UL" mainstream" gear … everyone IMO is getting in the act these days, which provides greater exposure and accessibility to the masses … and better deals for us all … when TNF and EB really get into the act,you know it aint "elite" anymore ;)

[Stephen M]

Hi folks,

I know we have been speaking about innvovation and the Big boys catching up with the Cottage kids.

Do folk think that materials can get any lighter, stronger or warmer in the next 5 years.

I wonder have we reached a pinnacle, or is the next big thing around the corner.

I live in hope :-)

Stephen

[Kurt Lammers]

Neverwet.com. It remains vaporware w/plenty of erudite resident skeptics (e.g. Will Rietveld et. al) but it could be a game changer…though not in your lighter, stronger or warmer categories necessarily. Even if it ultimately proves to be not breathable (as I suspect), or difficult to apply to the fabrics used in clothing, shelters, quilts or packs, imagine the benefits of applying it to boots, snowshoes, crampons…

[Richard Scruggs]

The next major innovation will be helium-inflated pack frames that multi-function as float-like-a-cloud sleeping pads, leading to SZBPW (Sub-Zero Base Pack Weight).

[Miguel Arboleda]

The next major innovation will be helium-inflated pack frames that multi-function as float-like-a-cloud sleeping pads, leading to SZBPW (Sub-Zero Base Pack Weight).

Here you go, Richard. A thread from back in 2006. If you go to the 2nd page and scroll halfway down, you get my prototype for the Zero-G Pole-less Shelter.

[Luke Schmidt]

LOL Miguel I love that idea! We joked about helium packs once but your truly took that idea to a new level. Also its good insurance against bears. No more arguements about guns and bear spray, just stay ten feet up and watch the bears below!

[Richard Scruggs]

That Zero-G Shelter is a genuine gem, Miguel! A real "Tinkerbell" solution!

It would give fly-fishing a whole new meaning. And just think of its significance for the LNT movement!

Yet, as Randy Travis once said, "on the other hand" . . . as gear floats easier and easier, think LA freeways. Or better yet, JFK International!

Hordes of all those new folks massed along "trail airways" — taking the "wild" out of wilderness.

And no more packrafts, either!!! Why be a rower when you can be a soarer?

Can backcountry flight plans and frequent packer-flier miles be next?

Flashing forward with the "less is more" movement — more in fact becomes less, as in more and more crowds mean less and less of what's best to be found out there, to the point of diminishing the incidental but nevertheless intrinsic rewards of wilderness views/experiences that are made even more valued by the challenge.

Those would be truly regretable consequences of atom-splitting innovations in ever-lightening loads.

Heck, maybe SUL solely for the sake of SUL sows the seeds that will produce nothing to go SUL about because the wilderness experience has become SOL.

Maybe what's needed is a campaign promoting heavier packs since they build character and preserve the wilderness.

And bears might be the last barrier to the masses! If folks are going to start literally floating around the wilderness, need to start rumors: Bears fly!

[Jamie Shortt]

Thanks to all that replied to my posts.

Tom/Eric, I admit my current setup is mostly MYOG and fringe, I purposely didnt show weight but rather percents. But when in the woods I always have what I need. Yes Eric the pad is the 6th item on my list. The 7th item would likely surprise folks, it is a pair of low cut smartwool Phd socks. Yeah the 7th heaviest item in my pack are my socks. Thats how crazy things are these days.

Tom, Glad you brought on Jardine. I have often wondered why he never advanced things significantly beyond his 8 lb kit. I was disappointed when I get my copy of Trail Life and his list was the same dam list he published in beyond backpacking. I wondered has this guy not made any advancements in 10 years. He still uses the same basic materials and prmotes the same approach, yeah with tweeks like gorgets for the quilts but overall not much has changed. Maybe he realized 10 years ago there was not much point to going beyond "beyond packpacking". I always liked this guy, but maybe he is even wiser than I gave him credit for.

Maybe this is where Ryan is coming from. The energy required to go from 8 to 5 to 3 lb kits is probably not work it for 99.9% of backpackers. And heck if you really just want a 12 lb or less kit you can easily get this from REI, and I'd go as far to say a 7 lb kit from campsaver.com.

Eric, From all the items you offered up I am not sure I would jump to change to any of them over what I originally listed. But what you have shown me is that there are a lot of options these days. So maybe the catching up part I was trying to understand is not that there is any one piece of gear today from mainstream that is much better than it was 5 years ago (i.e. catching up), but that there are more options being offered by more manufacturers (i.e. more manufacturers catching up). EB for one is a good example. This does allow people to shop sales by buy crazy good pieces of gear at great discounts. This is good for making lightweight more accessible to the masses.

As a general rule I believe cottage industry still provides the most advanced gear found and I continue to enjoy seeing what comes from the cottage companies, not true for main stream. I do think the cottage companies real opportuniy to appeal to a larger market is by offering better lead times. I once waited 3 months for an item. It is crazy to think that any company can survive with this kind of wait. It is only true because they offer something special to a small group.

I have appreciated the way this article and the many pages of responses have made me stretch my thinking.

Jamie

[C Nugget]

I would like to see a sample 12lb kit made from REI…

-christy

[David Ure]

"I would like to see a sample 12lb kit made from REI…"

-Golite Jam
-Golite 20 degree quilt
-Integral designs siltarp 8×10
-Vargo alcohol stove with Snow Peak 450ml pot.
-Montbell UL down jacket
-NeoAir
-Katadyn MicroPur tablets
-OR beanie

Pretty sure this is under 12lbs.

[Miguel Arboleda]

What do you want Ryan to say? Could he say anything that wouldn't be dissected and analyzed to death?

Er, I'm pretty sure that Ryan wrote the article and had the forum appended to it in great part to instigate just such a discussion. He was perfectly aware that it would create dissension. All par for course. When you publish in the public arena, most especially when you editorialize, you have to be prepared to thicken your skin. It's what publishing has always been about. He put the words out there… it's fair game. Doesn't mean we have to be unpleasant, rude, or unkind about it, though.

[Author]

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