Cottage Stagnation and Recent Gems

[Dave T]

A big +1 to Serge and Craig W's posts.

Ryan's coming full circle perhaps, like many other people had or will. I definitely have. I don't think about gear almost at all any more, unless I am expanding into sea kayaking or snowshoeing, not about backpacking. I have a couple of good setups and options and now I just try to use them.

The same question that has been raised before: how can BPL continue to provide help to the "noobs" to move from those 60 lb packs to 10-15 lbs, while keeping the "already-converted" engaged? To me, the latter mostly means info on trips, routes, new forms of self-powered/combined travel, meet-ups, photos, and inspiration, ideally with updated forum software. It doesn't mean gram-weenie-ism, endless gear talk, rampant consumerism, and chaff for chaff's sake. My 2 cents.

I think the "cottage stagnation" concept isn't entirely fair. Backpacking involves a shelter and a backpack and something to sleep in; it's just walking in the woods. Materials like silnylon and cuben have been innovations, but where can you really go from there once you have already combined them? I'm sure there are more innovations, but for companies like Tarptent and MLD, they are making relatively light, relatively durable gear for people to actually USE, at a fair price and with great service. If that's stagnation, it sounds pretty good to me.

[Aaron]

"Despite my love for the site, I think the answer lies in that its always been a little bit more about gear nerdery and consumerism than actual backpacking."

+1

I stumbled upon BPL earlier this year when looking up gear reviews for backpacks. One thing led to another and pretty soon my pack weight was lowered significantly and trips (well, other than Uath where I carry all my water…) became much more comfortable. I drank the UL kool aid, and am thankful for this site for giving me the knowledge base to make informed decisions regarding gear.

On the other hand, UL equipment (and outdoor equipment in general) breeds rampant consumerism. Replacing a tent after only one use with a lighter, shinier model, buying the newest/lightest alcohol stove, or owning 5 or 6 packs for different situations proves this. In this sense, I agree with Ryan. I've come full circle from trying to religiously cut my weight by buying the newest and lightest to selling all of the extraneous gear in my closet. I don't need 3 packs. I only need one stove. My duomid is fine for year round use. I'm tired of having to pick exactly what I need for each trip out of my gear closet. I'd rather pick up what I have and go.

I don't write this to disparage those who enjoy backpacking gear as a hobby. It the reason BPL exists and I have gained invaluable tips and tricks from contributors on this site. But like everyone else mentioned, it's just walking in the woods, not rocket science.

Other than selling extraneous gear on gear swap, I'm going to make a more concerted effort to post mostly in trip reports, and the philosophy/technique sections. Or maybe I'll just shut-up and go for a hike.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I suspect the narrative mentioning 'you don't need to go from 5.2 lbs to 4.6 lbs,' pertains to everyone's personal journey as a outdoor enthusiast, and how that journey matures beyond the gram counting / gear replacing stage.

When you're moving beyond traditional hiking, the phase of buying a scale, replacing gear and sweating the grams is really important. I'm sure we all learned an immense amount from this period in our own lives and it's really important for anyone to go through. You learn how pack weight affects your outdoors experience, how a bunch of light items can add up to a heavy load, and what difference it makes when you're modifying gear.

There comes a point however when you've learned pretty much of these lessons and your time and money may be better spent elsewhere. Still weigh your gear and replace it with the best item when it wears out, but you no longer need to replace perfectly good gear just because there's something a smidge lighter. You can tone down the money being spent, and you can also reduce the time being spent on studying your gear.

As with anything in life, there are diminishing returns. Notice that Ryan didn't say that it doesn't' matter if you're at 52 lbs or 4.6 lbs. He said 5.2 lbs because someone who is at 5.2 lbs has almost certainly already spent countless hours learning the lessons, honing their kit and now they can enjoy the fruits of that by getting outdoors.

[Paul Fitzner]

Ryan,
Great article.. opens up much dicussion. Since I've been around for longer than almost all in the ultra light revolution, I figured I would add a thought or two.

As I told you a few years ago, Its time we turned ultralight from a marketing term, to an actual definition that would fit the industry, and participants better. The definitions I developed in 2008 fits: Ultralight- The lightest weight an individual can carry without effecting someone elses outdoor experience (hiking trip).

Its not the gear, but the experience level, ones own comfort threshold, physical condition, and natural conditions (weather, terain, seasons, etc.) which really determines how light some one can go.

I think materials have hit a plateau to where durablity with the lowest wt. is doing a re-orginization. Most of the gear has been out there for a long time; better/ lighter materials are the difference. Most gear designs have been out there for awhile also. It really comes down to the basics and our experience level.

The "Holy Grail" of ultralight backpacking is a spark within each of us to make the journey into the outdoors as enjoyable as possible with the friends and views we treasure so much, carrying just what we need as light as possible.

Your friend,
"Chef Paul" Fitzner
Etowah Outfitters/ Etowah Gear
[email protected]

[dan mchale]

"Also, it is my understanding that Ryan had asked another pack builder for something similar many years ago, and was basically told to shove it."

Chris, what's your point here?

[Luke Schmidt]

If we say the market has "stagnated" that implies that it should be "going" somewhere. My question is where should it go? What would qualify as improvement? I don't think we'll see any huge breaththroughs on the SUL fringe for example so I don't think weight reduction by itself is a place for improvement. On the other hand I think making light gear more capable is a good place for improvement. One example would be the HMG Porter pack. Its about the same weight as a frameless Golite Jam pack but way more capable. Another example would be the MLD pyamids. They are just barely heavier than a nylon tarp but offer more protection. Also both of these products are much more user friendly.

[John S.]

I believe this cottage constipation will be quickly cured next spring when the ZPacks XLax hits the market.

The writer appears to be having an inner simplicity crisis, where his thoughts on natural and practical simplicity are clashing.

[BlackHatGuy]

Interesting post/thoughts, Ryan. Taken together with some of your other musings this past year, you seem to be at a number of crossroads, perhaps some conflicting, and searching for, or trying to refine, the direction in which you want to head. I'm enjoying the parts of your journey you've decided to share.

Not sure why you felt the need to take some swipes at specific gear makers (though, since you didn't name them, it's up to each of us to decide who you're talking about if we care to) – I felt that was rather unnecessary and didn't contribute to the points you're trying to make, but I've done such things myself often enough that I can't criticize you for it all that much.

Anyway,self-reflection is a wonderful thing. Thanks for sharing.

[Kurt Lammers]

Forgive me but I think it's comical that Dr. Jordan has taken a moment from his own, separate blog to criticize a perceived lack of cottage innovation while this endeavor, Backpacking Light, appears to this BPLer to be a rudderless shell of its former self. Original content at BPL has slowed to a late August high country muddy trickle. Gear store: no more. I urge Dr. Jordan and the remaining BPL staff to focus inward rather than accuse others of stagnation; more recent innovation lay in the MLD Exodus FS than in any non-forum content I've found relevant here in too many sad months this year.

[BlackHatGuy]

"When you put down a blanket criticism of practically the entire cottage industry without disclosing your own interest in the brand you are singling out and promoting, you have a conflict of interest – especially at a site that reviews the gear being put down! "

This is a fair point. Even if there is no financial conflict of interest, there can be a perceived conflict of interest, and the owner of this site should avoid even the perception. That doesn't mean he can't have an opinion, but he should have added, in his piece (whether or not it is elsewhere on the site is immaterial), what his relationship was to this pack/HMG. That is standard practice.

[James holden]

articles from BPL where you WONT find anywhere else … no one else does as comprehensive and thorough investigation of fact, and not just the standard rah rah rah, marketing rah rah rah

– Sleeping pad test where they measured the R values
– WPB tests where they did real measurements and not just take gore or polartecs marketing spiel
– jetboil tests where they contradicted the "established" BPL forum wisdom about jetboil being useless
– alternative raingear test
– frameless pack tests where they measured actual collapse of different frame types

part of the problem IMO, is that many BPLers seem to ignore the above … they believe what they want to believe and are likely set in their ways and gear …

fanboism exist in BPL as much as for any other gear centric forum …

[Brett Peugh]

I would agree with some of the assessments made but maybe not some of his conclusions.

The HMG looks like a very nice pack but at a $275 price point I will never know and will have to see instead if the Golite Jam I just picked up for $70 on sale will work out better than the last few packs I have had. The same with a Kabatic quilt. Looks dynamite from here and also costs more than I pay for a month for rent and utilities. I can't do tarps like a lot of people so the MLD can be the best -gon out there but I will never know.

I guess what I would like to see is good, simple, strong and durably built gear at a decent price point. Like he says, cut all the extra crap off the pack beyond maybe a hydration sleeve, dual water bottle holders and maybe a back mesh pouch. I know there are a lot of tarp lovers out there but all of the poles and stake tie outs make me want to just crawl into a vented tube tent after about 5 minutes. And I am not saying that the tents are much better with all of the odd configurations and wasted geometric space. Is it so hard to just create a tent to keep me dry and with some venting that I can just crawl into and go to sleep?

But I try to keep it simple. I mainly use a wood stove and an alcohol stove that is actually the cosmetic top of a flask. Solite pad to sleep on. Sawyer gravity filter for the water. Yeah it may weight a few more ounces but I don't worry about and don't have to.

I still like BPL, learn a lot from here and have a membership now to help out.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Off the top of my head, some 2011 cottage gear innovations which impressed me were:

– MLD Exodus FS
– TarpTent StratoSpire (actually just ordered one)
– Zpacks Exo
– HMG Porter (interesting that three of these items are lightly framed packs/packs with stays)

Not be a downer, but I don't see anything too impressive with the Katabatic quilts. They look to be very nicely made and great quilts, but innovative?, Aside from their strapping system there isn't much new. Normal fabrics, normal down, normal shape. GoLite has been making similar quilts for years. What seems more innovative from me are the quilts from guys like Virga Outdoors and The Stateless Society that are at least using innovative 7D fabrics and trying unique designs like Virga's 19 baffle Wendego which holds the down in place a lot better than other quilts with half the number of baffles.

Looking forward, I hope Pat's Backcountry Beer hits the market in 2012. Serious innovation here:
http://www.patsbcb.com/beer.html

[Anonymous]

Welcome synthesis of the history of the Ultra Light Gear industry over the past half dozen years. Someone had to say it so why not the host of the congregants? The development into this present state of stagnation is a natural one. They all took risks and suffered personal costs by participating as players. No one is eager to constantly put past achievements on the line with continual risk taking of everything earned. But this observation made by the author is not something we haven’t sensed the last recent two years or so. It acts as a rock thrown into a pack of dogs and the dog taking the hit yelps the loudest. By the way, we all have bias and self-interest. This doesn’t disqualify of us from observing fact and serving as witnesses. But the cross-examiners have brought some of this bias to the fore to allow us to give appropriate weight. Good article!

[Ryan Jordan]

I have zero financial interests in any of the companies that make the gear that I promote, and never, ever, ever, enter into a contract whereby my ability to get paid depends upon the sales of a product. The only ones in the past that I've done so for have carried the Backpacking Light label. My financial interests lie a little bit in BPL (to the extent that I wish to sell memberships and offer adventurous education opportunities), but mostly in my consulting work – the vast majority of which lies well outside the outdoor industry and is focused on my "real" field of expertise (which FYI is NOT gear design), but lean business process design and implementation, and engineered systems for delivering potable water in remote, underprivileged, disaster relief, and combat environments (and no, I don't work for any manufacturer of water treatment products for outdoor users). Oh – and I am shorting the euro.

FWIW, I told Mike St. Pierre (HMG) that I needed a large pack. The Porter is what he came up with. I replied with a request to change the fit a little, to support a heavier load, strip off some features, and he sent me a new pack. As Dan said, don't confuse designing with specifying. This is an HMG pack of HMG design and they deserve full credit for creating a pack that really works – don't pass any of that credit on to me, please.

And, I paid full price for my HMG pack. I've paid full price for all of my McHale packs – two products that I've "promoted" extensively because they just plain work.

The HMG pack absorbs less water than my McHale as a % of pack weight, but a lot of this water weight appears to be absorbed into the McHale's harness, not *just* the fabric (the HMG fabric absorbs less water into the fabric, however, but it does have a more spartan harness). It's very low in the HMG. We'll put that data out there in the HMG pack review that's forthcoming.

In addition, my coatings on my 210d Spectra grid McHale packs have started to hydrolyze and are starting to peel. But then again, so are the coatings on the fabrics of my Arctic pack (this one is really bad – but it's been my packrafting workhorse), a little bit on my Pinnacle, and just starting on an MLD pack I picked up used. Such is the nature of using gear, and using fabrics with some types of PU coatings. I don't consider this a defect in Dan's packs – far from it. In fact, I rather like that Dan's manufacturing will outlast the (lighter) fabrics he uses. That's how it should be. That's NOT been my experience with most of the "SUL/UL" cottage packs. Every one of the failures I've had thus far in cottage packs has been from manufacturing, not fabrics (seams can't hold up to heavier loads – something that is unacceptable to me, even for so-called "UL" packs). That's why I'm critical towards the attention that cottage manufacturers are placing on fabrics. If they only put that attention towards manufacturing quality. They could learn a quality lesson from McHale.

Ryan

[Jim Sweeney]

About the only downside of things getting better is that we come to expect that they'll continue to get better, at the same or a faster rate. The last 4 or 5 years have seen general substantial improvement in function/durability vs weight throughout the industry at all price points. There's no intrinsic reason why this improvement (which came after many years of stagnation) should continue at the same rate. That's not a problem, or the result of complacency; it's just the way things go. Probably work is being done now which, when various insights coalesce, will produce game-changing improvements similar to carbon fiber poles, Cuben fiber packs, and all the tent innovations we've seen. But it won't be as much in the realm of weight, as there just isn't that much more weight to be saved.

That said, for me the last year has seen significant improvements–among them Z-Packs' sleeping bags, packs, and shelters, the new JetBoil, and, though I haven't used it, the new Back Country boiler Ryan referred to.

[dan mchale]

Ryan, it is not correct to generalize about how a 'McHale' absorbs more water than an HMG pack since I make Cuben packs also. Please compare apples to apples. The same goes with Spectra Grid. All of my packs are not made of Spectra Grid, or full dyneema, or cordura, or mixes of Cuben and polyester or spectra. These are choices the customer makes. I do not recall having any issues with customers regarding coatings on Spectra grid. I can't recall one, it has not been an issue. You have certainly never brought it up, yet you choose to for the first time in public?

[David Ure]

"Ryan, it is not correct to generalize about how a 'McHale' absorbs more water than an HMG pack since I make Cuben packs also."

He didn't generalize. He said, "The HMG pack absorbs less water than my McHale as a % of pack weight" He also indicates that it appears to be most attributable to the harness. HIS pack as a percentage of pack weight.

[dan mchale]

Ryan did generalize. He got caught making yet another statement without really thinking about what he's saying. It would have been far more appropriate to say Cuben Packs do not absorb as much water as woven Fabric packs rather than getting into a stupid HMG Vs McHale claim that is irrelevant. It's also funny how instead of addressing his untruths about spectra grid, he attacks the coating. This is pretty entertaining. Cuben Fiber costs at least twice as much as spectra grid fabric. Does Ryan expect these 2 very different materials to perform the same? How much has Ryan used Cuben packs? Can he see into the future regarding how well they will hold up? (I in no way mean to disparage Cuben here – am just pointing out that Ryan has less field time probably with Cuben than Grid).

[David Wills]

I must admit that I was a bit concerned with what I perceived as a lack of innovation after not being a regular on BPL for almost a year back in 2009-2010. Upon returning, I looked around hard to see what cool new stuff had come out in that year assuming that the pace would stay the same and all sorts of new goodies would be at my fingertips. Sadly innovation seemed to have plateaued. It was all basically reiterations and tweaks of previously designed stuff, plus lots of designs redone in the unsuitable .35oz/yd variety of cuben that has since nearly vanished. At the time, I was sad. I didn't think BPL could possibly keep my attention or that there was anywhere left for the industry to go strictly regarding backpacking. While I still believe we have hit a plateau where refinements trump large changes, I can't say that it's a bad thing.

I think 2009 and 2010 was a time when the collective group started rebounding/retreating from pushing the UL ideal to the limits of practicality. People started to focus more on improving efficiency of their 8 or 15 pound load instead of seeing if they can sleep on a 1/8" foam mat. I feel the cottage industry has responded accordingly, appropriately, and predictably to the momentum of the market we are all a part of. They are meeting the demands of the people.

More packs with light suspension are coming from companies that wouldn't have considered it in 2008 or 2009 and are the new frontier cottage pack makers are working towards. Heck, even BPL came out with the Absoroka Pack not terribly long after articles promoting sub 5 lb packs were all the rage. People are interested in carrying real loads comfortably in a light pack. We should see more in the coming year. From what I have seen, I think your accusation that cottage packs are ugly and poorly made is generally unfounded. There is a reason more people use ULA than any other pack on thru hikes. However, there is one cottage company whose packs I have seen being repaired trailside, and I have seen several from that company.

Shelters are trending towards either full coverage with modular bug protection (TT, SMD, MLD, HMG, BPWWD) and/or being tweaks the old Nomad design (Lightheart, SMD, Suluk ALLWEPT, TT). People are raving about the Stratospire and Solong 6 not because of weight barriers, but because they provide more value per ounce. More room and full protection at less weight. SMD even has a 34 oz $125 roomy, full coverage shelter. It's what the people want, so that's where creative efforts are going. Sorry if it doesn't excite you Ryan.

We already have a huge range of titanium pots to cook in and efficient stoves to cook with. How many ways can you make water hot? If people demanded a better way, the market would respond. Many of the cottage manufacturers and UL Ambassadors like Skurka just use a supercat and call it a day. For the limited people in the market for a wood stove, efficiencies and ease of use can be pushed a little higher, sure. If there was a significant enough demand for wood stoves, more companies would be more interested in making new awesome ones.

Sleeping pads are moving along nicely both from big companies and cottage ones. Bender is making highly regarded mats that are three times as warm as my old BA insulated aircore for about the same weight. The barrier to entry for making something like the new super warm neoair (R value of 5 i think?) is pretty high though. To say that cottage companies should accept the risk involved with something like this or sonic welding is pretty bold. Outsource a sonic welded backpack? Could work. The big companies have the ability to do this much more easily and efficiently than the cottage industry though, which is why they do.

With sleeping bags, you can see cost and weight savings instituted by Tim Marshall using karo baffles in his down quilts. Zpacks designed a strange but awesome quilt/sleeping bag hybrid. Titanium Goat and Thru Hiker are continuing to optimize fabric options. A breathable cuben is on the way too, although I don't see much point in it since breathable fabric tend to require little in the way of tensile strength, but more abrasion resistance. Either way, they are all moving forward. There are several other down quilt makers from the hammock world as well who provide alternatives to the expensive company that remains unmentioned. What sort of progress could you be looking for in this department?

One area that has been slow to develop is clothing. This is also an area where the big industries have a huge competitive advantage, so the cottage industry is wise to stay away from it. Midsize companies continue to be competitive though, like WM and FF. Clothing isn't going to change much and it isn't nearly as specialized as gear.

While saying economists don't have solutions may be true, it isn't their goal. I believe they focus more on understanding and explaining behavior from people and businesses. People's need for innovation is lower now than in 2008 when things were full speed ahead. As a market, we have settled on a desire to have our packs reasonably light with well performing, comfortable gear. The cottage industry is supplying us with that. They innovate and produce to meet our demands, not just for the sake of doing it.

Ryan, I am really sorry the cottage industry is not making strides to entertain you when you review gear. Are you worried that lack of excitement will hamper BPL popularity? There must be some serious cognitive dissonance going on since you are condescending to the cottages for not innovating whilst simultaneously patronizing the members of the community that drive the demand for innovation and support the cottage industry. I find it especially odd for you to say this when you and BPL have the history, resources, connections, and built in audience to be one of those innovators you seek others to be.

End of rant. Time to breathe, pack up my gear and head out for a trip tomorrow!

[Ryan Jordan]

"Ryan did generalize. He got caught making yet another statement without really thinking about what he's saying."

Yes on both accounts. I do it all the time.

"It's also funny how instead of addressing his untruths about spectra grid, he attacks the coating."

I actually thought the coatings have held up pretty well, given what I've put the packs through. I have no complaints about minor delamination of the coating. I also agree with you that Spectra grid does indeed prevent catastrophic blowouts. I just think this is an incredibly small risk for the norm of ultralight backpacking, and that it's pretty tough to sell a poorly constructed pack that's going to fail in the seams under loading duress based on the merits of this – or any – fabric – unless the fabric is going to be the failure point in the pack.

"This is pretty entertaining. Cuben Fiber costs at least twice as much as spectra grid fabric. Does Ryan expect these 2 very different materials to perform the same?"

Of course not.

I do like that I can get a pack made of a hybrid CF that has similar volume and load carrying comfort and at a lighter weight, and that fits well, absorbs less water, and also prevents the small possibility of catastrophic failure, without too high of investment, though. My pack was only $275, which seems a bargain for what it offers.

The only wild card I see with this hybrid CF fabric – and I do see it as a wild card – is its longevity. It's new, so that remains to be seen. At least with some of the Spectra grids, we know what to expect out of them, and for the most part, they hold up well enough for a long time.

[Ross Bleakney]

I think this article is a bit inconsistent, and I think Ryan's own preferences have crept into what he sees as stagnation. For example, he talks about tarps. Tarps are great, but I don't use them. 90% of the time, I hike in high bug season. Yes, I could deal with the bugs in a different manner, but I really prefer a tent. This is where the inconsistency comes in. It doesn't makes sense to say "you don't need to lighten your pack from 5.2 to 4.6 pounds" and then complain that there is no innovation. I agree, there probably isn't much innovation at that weight. That is because it is very difficult to make anything very different at that weight. You are pretty much assured of using a tarp, alcohol stove (or wood burner if allowed), etc. But once you expand the options, then things get more interesting. If you accept that a tent is a reasonable option, then the cottage gear makers were hugely innovative (again). The StratoSpire is a weird looking offset tent. Maybe someone has done something like that before, but you could say that about just about any innovation (for example software: Cloud Computing? Been there, done that a long time ago). My point is that the StatoSpire is an extremely innovative tent, and is just part of a long line of innovations in the world of tent making. Frankly, the big tent makers are simply behind, and remain behind in quality, price and value. It is rare to say that about any cottage industry, but it is true of tents.

I do agree that "the big boys" have made some big strides. It took them long enough. Many of the cottage tent makers, for example, were already moving on to Cuben, while some of the big tent makers finally decided to make a tent or two out of Silnylon. Yes, just making a product out of "the latest mylar sandwich" may not seem like innovation, but it goes along with designs that maximize its usefulness. The Hexamid tent jumps out in this regard, although there are other ones as well. You could say, for example, that YouTube is just a video sharing service made possible by the rapid decrease in hard drive cost — no innovation there. Sure, but to someone who never shared their home movies to their cousin across the globe, it sure seems innovative.

In many ways, it is surprising how well the cottage gear makers have stayed ahead in many areas or kept close in others. One of the more innovative products in the last ten years is the NeoAir. This is an engineering marvel in a city known for that sort of thing (the company was formed by ex-Boeing guys). Nonetheless, this is an outlier. My guess is that if you polled most members of this site they would say that most of their gear is from cottage makers. Maybe they aren't interested in getting new stuff, but that is because the gear they have is so good, not because they think there is a lack of innovation.

[James holden]

My guess is that if you polled most members of this site they would say that most of their gear is from cottage makers.

i seriously doubt it … while many, or even perhaps a majority may have a piece of gear here and there which is cottage … i think it more likely that when everyone on this forums, members and non-members alike, total up all the pieces of gear … many of them will find a substantial amount, if not a majority come from more mainstream sources

count clothing, shoes, poles, tents/tarps, sleeping bags, hats, gloves, stoves, even yr compass … etc …

the simple reason i suspect is that more mainstream gear is getting quite light, you can try it, and most importantly … its frequently on sale

[MFR]

Right or wrong, this is getting ugly. I have lost all interest in McHale packs.

[Aaron]

"the simple reason i suspect is that more mainstream gear is getting quite light, you can try it, and most importantly … its frequently on sale."

Exactly. Not everyone can order 3 packs from cottage manufacturers and ship back the 2 they don't like (ah, the life of a poor grad student). On the other hand, since I live in Colorado, I can walk into a golite store, try on everything, and walk out with great gear at an extreme discount.

And honestly, there is something to be said for durability. Most of the larger companies have a lifetime warranty on their products, and while they may weigh more, they also (in my experience) last longer than *some* cottage products.

[Author]

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