Is Ethanol Worth It?

Here in Aussie we just go to a supermarket pay about $3.50 and get 1L of 95% Ethanol in exchange.
I am not all that sure where we can buy Methanol…
Franco
From the inferior land of downunder

>From the inferior land of down under

I thought this got all worked out on that other thread. Are Aussies still even allowed to post on the same forums as us? Sheesh. ;)

Thanks for your work Jim! I tried HEET in my stove and found Everclear to work better. Any numbers on that?

Franco, how much would it cost for the same amount of high-proof drinkable ethanol?

–B.G.–

Hi, Franco,

I’m not sure why anyone might call the land down under, “inferior” for any reason, and certainly the term “inferior” doesn’t apply at all to the alcohol fuel you have there in Australia. You have metho which is a 95/5 blend of ethanol and methanol. That’s an excellent blend for alcohol stove use. The metho in Australia is as good or better than anything normally available in the US (unless someone in the US wants to burn expensive drinking grade alcohol).

See also my post on my blog: What is Meths (Metho)?

You guys have the good stuff. It is we “up” here that have the cheap junk.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

"It is we "up" here that have the cheap junk."

I don't know, HJ. Have you seen the price on 190 proof Everclear lately?

–B.G.–

Hi, Travis,

I’m glad you saw this post. I had you in mind when I wrote this post. I had given you test results from tests done at 10,500 feet/3200m. Good numbers, but not everyone is hiking that high. These latest numbers were from 2600 feet/790m.

In terms of running on Everclear, you should be able to use slightly less Everclear (assuming it’s 190 proof) than green denatured alcohol. In other words you should be able to do slightly better with Everclear. I don’t think you’ll have as big a difference between Everclear and green denatured as I encountered between green DA and HEET.

I’d like to do SLX denatured vs. green denatured some time, but SLX varies a lot batch to batch if I’m reading the MSDS correctly. I’m not sure how transferrable the results would be.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

5 days is awfully close to being better for a 4oz cannister, depending on the wt of the alcohol system used. If you used MeOH, you might as well have a cannister for sure.

just pointing out too how that shifts the crossover point.

of course, the reason people use MeOH is its available at gas stations on the trail. Its not necessarily the first choice, just the most readily available for resupply in some areas

gnat 1.7oz
4oz iso/pro fuel = .4oz per boil x 10 boils
3 oz container (snowpeak 110)

total 8.7 oz

alcohol stove/support/windscreen =?
meoh= 7.5 oz for 10 boils
fuel bottle =1 oz

total = 8.5 oz without stove system.

I was just having some fun here, after all we are a day ahead of you guys so you will never catch up.

Bob
I never ever seen anyone here buying the drinkable type of ethanol to operate an alcohol stove.
(and we still have a lot of walkers using Trangias)
We think that only Americans are mad enough to do that.
Apparently we can get something called "Spiritus" in grog shops (liquor licenced shops…) about $50 for 500ml .
People buy that to make their own liquors.
We did that in Italy but I am sure it was a lot less (cost of living adjusted)
Franco
Added
It's Spyritus and in fact Polish Vodka.
Well, I have had Italian grappa that was a bit like that.

Franco,

It’s not that the Australians are a day ahead so much as the rest of the world understood your innate handicap and gave you a head start out of charity. ;)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Martin,

I’ve read accounts of hikers not being able to find gas canisters in certain locations, but alcohol is available danged near everywhere.

The other piece that sometimes is missing in the gas vs. alcohol weight comparison is the wind screen aspect of things. To me, it’s a lot easier to protect an alcohol stove that I can fully inclose in a relatively short windscreen than it is to protect an upright canister stove which requires a taller windscreen. I can get by with a much lighter, more packable windscreen with an alcohol stove in my experience.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

>It's not that the Australians are a day ahead so much as the rest of the world understood your innate handicap and gave you a head start out of charity. ;)

Hahahahahaha!

Travis
We pride ourselves for having invented the Hills Hoist .
That cracks me up every time I hear it…(comes under "Great Aussie inventions)
(it's a clothesline)
Of course the greatest real contribution to the rest of the world is the wine in a box idea.
But really we don't have to invent or do all that much, just send another iron ore load to China and they send us back a container full of iPads.
Now we are about to send uranium to India because we have an anti-uranium stand ourselves so we try to get rid of the stuff.
(and as a bit of a warning to a country not so far from India, but I don't know much about that )
Franco

i am not sure for that.

Worth it for me. I near went blind the last time I tried mixing HEET with my lemonade after a long day of hiking..

Yes and no. More heat content, yes. Practical, probably not. Maybe you have to live in Oz.

IFF you are unsuported, need to carry it, yes. 5 days is a short time and my cut off is actually about 3 days. IE, I bring WG for longer than 3 days.

IFF you are going to resupply, no. Methanol is cheap enough to buy as you go. Couple or three days of fuel, get more and go for rest. You end up lighter.

'Corse, I drink a LOT of coffe in the morning, and cook, too. For more than fast packing/2-3 day trips, I usually take WG.

Heat density is a problem. There just isn't that much in alcohol. Esbits are about the same as alcohols, a slight bit better, but make a mess and smell a bit. Canisters and alcohols are roughly the same, factoring in carry weight of the can and a 1oz water bottle. Canisters have a slight edge, not enough to consider, really. Big and bulky to carry for longer trips and canisters are simply not common enough. WG is better, but requires a heavy stove. If it won't also burn unleaded gas, then you need to carry sufficient quantities for the whole trip. Kero is harder to get than WG. To consider the difference between methanol and ethanol is like "Whatever, give me what is available." Because, on the trail, I don't have a choice. Often, I have trouble finding methanol and am forced to use iso-propanol and it's one of the reasons I don't carry alcohol stoves for longer trips. Especially with ethanol already added to gasoline. The gas stations that used to carry it, quit stocking the yellow HEET.

To bypass the heat density problem, high efficiency pots were designed and used in high efficiency wind screens. But, these can also be used with higher fuel density fuels, canisters and WG.

Most of the camp stores don't stock anything in the line of alcohol stoves or fuel, either. I have tried mixing WG and alcohol, but there is a lot of soot. Acetone burns fairly clean, but doesn't deliver the efficiency in an alcohol stove and is pretty difficult to deal with, fumes & toxicity. Some stoves can't burn it at all and simply destroy themselves. I never got around to building a stove that was tuned to burn acetone efficiently. It too can be added in small quantities to alcohol, increasing the heat content of the fuel 10-15%. A high efficincy pot does as well.

Wood stoves don't work for me. 3 out of 5 days I can count on wet or damp wood, and, they leave a mess of the pot and campsite, unless you are carefull with the ash. They also require a bit of planning the night before so I can make coffee in the morning.

The few grams you can save using ethanol represent a huge logistical problem for me in the ADKs and NY state. It is not worth bothering with reagent grade Ethanol for longer trips. Knowing it is a slight bit lighter, I bring it for short trips.

Soo, there is not a simple answer, nor a single good solution. Often it takes a combination of methodes to make some stove system work. Is ethanol worth it? Only the user can answer this queston.

I must admit to being infatuated with alcohol stoves. I have a "ton" of homemade soda can stoves, penny stoves from Heinekin cans and manufactured alcohol stoves.

I've used Heet, Everclear and my favorite "Diesel". LOL

The "Diesel" that I am referring to is the brand name of a less expensive 95% grain alcohol from my local grocery store. It is a cheaper version of Everclear and comes in a larger bottle for less money than the comparable size of Everclear.

On my last hike all my "cooking" was done with a canister stove. I do find the canister stoves quicker. In my limited experience I have not found the availability of fuel canisters to be a problem. In the more remote areas I can understand how canister scarcity could manifest itself as a problem. What I have noticed is that your particular favorite brand / mfg of canister fuel may not be readily available and you'll have to settle for what is available.

I recently constructed an Ikea wood stove. Because of the sooting problem it will probably be used as a backup to my primary alcohol stove.

Another thread made reference to reducing the inventory in the gear closet and going to a slimmed down "go to" gearlist for the majority of hikes. On the trail I like simplicity and a lack of "issues". For this reason I seem to be headed in the direction of an alcohol stove supplemented by my Ikea wood burner if I were to run out of fuel before and available resupply point.

My current alcohol stove is a "cat can" stove made from the bottom of a Budweiser aluminum bottle. I have primer pan made from a can lid and a stove snuffer made from a cut down vienna sausage can. If I over estimate the amount of fuel needed I can snuff out the stove let it cool and reclaim the left over fuel. As an added benfit my stove, snuffer and primer pan are all reclaimed trash!

FWIW I noticed on a previous hike that my windscreen did not breathe well enough despite the standard hole punch ventilation holes every half inch around the bottom. I had the windscreen spaced away from my cookpot a minimum of 1/2" all the way around. What helped was opening up the diameter of the windscreen and allowing in more oxygen. My aluminum flashing windscreen now has alternating 3/4" x 3" rectangular cutouts in addition to the 1/4" punched holes. I made this modification after seing a video by Zelph describing how an alcohol stove can be starved for O2 and cause the flame to dance around searching for oxygen. This modification helps stabilize the flame and improve efficiency.

+1 for Hiking Jim's posts and his blog on the subject of alcohol stoves. ;-)

Party On,

Newton

Worth it for me. I near went blind the last time I tried mixing HEET with my lemonade after a long day of hiking.

Yeah, the other thing that needs to be factored into the equation is the toxicity of methanol/HEET. I generally feel more comfortable with something less toxic…

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

John Donewar wrote: > FWIW I noticed on a previous hike that my windscreen did not breathe well enough despite the standard hole punch ventilation holes every half inch around the bottom. I had the windscreen spaced away from my cookpot a minimum of 1/2″ all the way around. What helped was opening up the diameter of the windscreen and allowing in more oxygen. My aluminum flashing windscreen now has alternating 3/4″ x 3″ rectangular cutouts in addition to the 1/4″ punched holes. I made this modification after seing a video by Zelph describing how an alcohol stove can be starved for O2 and cause the flame to dance around searching for oxygen. This modification helps stabilize the flame and improve efficiency.

John,

Thanks for that. I’ve still got some soot issues to overcome on my DIY stoves. I’m not getting bad soot, but I’d like to reduce it further, so I appreciate the info.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

"+1 for Hiking Jim's posts and his blog on the subject of alcohol stoves. ;-)"
Yupper!!!

And thanks to all of you for all your good input.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

"Yeah, the other thing that needs to be factored into the equation is the toxicity of methanol/HEET. I generally feel more comfortable with something less toxic…"

That's precisely why I use Everclear. 3x the cost….but, I don't care.

Also, what are the manufacturing ramifications of HEET and the like? I'm willing to bet it's more polluting than the potable drink. Externalities.

Another thing to throw in the mix: flame safety. Generally, I find that the flames from burning ethanol are more visible in daylight than the flames from methanol. I have gotten some pretty good “ouches” when I put my hand over my burner to check and see if it was in fact still lit. No serious injuries, but definitely and “OUCH!” or two (or “@#@%&!” more likely). ;)

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

For simply boiling water with a cannister, sleeping pad can be held in place as a windscreen for 3.5 min.

Longer cooking obviously requires other considerations.

You can get creative for windscreens, piles of rocks, dig a small hole, etc too. Just LNT when its all done.

A little fiddly, but definitely doable. Personally, I don’t think there’s THAT much weight difference between an ultralight canister set up and an ultralight alcohol set up. They’re close enough in my mind that other factors are probably going to dictate which one a particular individual will want to choose.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving