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what would you do if you stepped the wrong way in the stream at low temps and yr feet got soaked
i saw this outside of canmore sometime back on the approach to a climb … the climb was effectively over as wet frozen feet at -20C or less is not a safe thing IMO
if yr not worried about such situations … its up to you
You mentioned upgrading your bag, don't forget the pad. I can take my 25deg down to the low teens using an exped downmat or doubling up a self inflator and foam pad. If you are using a light summer pad you can really loose a lot of warmth to the ground.
Another aid is to search the forum for rescue and disaster stories, there is a lot to learn from other peoples mistakes or bad luck.
See but Eric, that's why I feel like its better to use insulated goretex boots, no? They won't soak through, and with gaiters properly attached, I can avoid an overflow situation. But even if that did happen, how would having removable liners even really help? I'd still have to deal with a boot malfunction in one form or another. Maybe if you're saying have an extra liner too? But either way those boots don't look that comfortable, technical, or supported in comparison to others I've seen. I like to have a little bit of support, especially if I'm going to end up in crampons.
Try the La Sportiva Trango Ext. Evo Light GTX. Relatively light, crampon compatible, warm, waterproof. EXCELLENT winter mountaineering boots for moderate conditions (down to zero fahrenheit or so).
adam… the big flaw with gore tex boots is that they take forever to dry and theres one big honking hole, through the top … sure you have gaiters, but stuff happens … that incident a few years ago where a climber i saw step into a creek was wearing croc gaiters, enough water somehow got over the gaiter to soak his leather boot through
with removable liners, at night you wring em out, take em into yr bag with a hawt nalgene, and get them less damp and warm … if they are simply a bit damp fro sweat, you can actually dry em out
im not sure about yr area, but around here some guiding services will not accept clients on multiday trips in winter should they not have boots with removable liners … for shorter trips you can likely get away with single leather boots, etc …
if you have ever had soaked boots in winter, youll know how long they take to dry even indoors, which is why they make "boot dryers"
its up to you what you use, just have yr footwear nailed down … as thats one thing that cant go wrong
edit …
heres the info from the ADK winter school that someone earlier posted … decide accordingly …
A: Our requirements for boots are strict and non-negotiable. In the Adirondacks we may very well have to contend with rain and slushy snow, followed by rapid and drastic drops in temperature. We get many, many questions every year regarding the suitability of various boots for our program. In order to address these We've come up with the following general guidelines – The Winter Mountaineering School Commandments of Footgear. Please read carefully and fully.
No boot, no matter what the manufacturer's claims, is waterproof when it comes to the varying conditions in the Adirondacks. Frozen boots = frozen feet. Therefore for overnight backpacking sections, removable boot liners are mandatory, no exceptions. Removable liners allow boots to be field dried at best and kept from freezing solid at worst. Also, do not confuse a removable midsole for a removable liner.
VBL sock liners (see below for details) are strongly recommended for all sections and are required for over night backpacking sections. They can be difficult to find. In a pinch, a pair of bread loaf bags (2-per foot, per day) will work. Many of us with years of experience have come to realize that even the best of VBLs eventually delaminate and leak so many of us use both the VBL and the bread bags, or two bread bags together. They are worn between your inner and outer socks. They work. Trust us.
There has been a great proliferation in "high tech" winter foot gear. Many manufacturers are making boots similar to the Columbia Buggaboots. In general they are one-piece construction and lack removable liners. This type of boot is now considered acceptable for our weekend day hiking section only since they can be kept warm overnight and dried while staying at the Loj. In general these should have full lacing, heavy lug type soles, full rubber waterproof lowers and may have synthetic or heavily factory water proofed leather uppers. They must also work with your crampons, gators, and snowshoes. When in doubt ask.
GI issue mouse boots, i.e. the big white ones that make you look like Mickey Mouse, are still acceptable for our purposes for overnight trips. They are tricky to get to work with most crampons, snow shoes and gators however so try them out first. Many miles were logged with them in the early years of winter school. Or you can use…
Sorel type pack boots. But they must satisfy the fist commandment above and have removable liners. They should have full lacing or an appropriately adjustable closure system, heavy rubber lowers with a lug sole, and synthetic or heavily factory waterproofed leather uppers. But most instructors now use….
Plastic Mountaineering Boots. These are the most appropriate footgear for our school. They have some drawbacks, not least of which is their cost but overall they work the best for our overnight backpacking sections. They are a bit tricky to fit with crampons, snowshoes, and gators so be sure to check out the fit of this gear before arriving at school. They can be rented at some gear shops, such as EMS in Albany and Lake Placid, and The Mountaineer in Keene Valley.
There are, in addition to the boots mentioned here so far, some very sophisticated, very expensive, single leather mountaineering boots available on the market these days. These boots are made for fast, alpine style ascents up mixed routes and are really made for conditions and terrain we do not have much of in the Northeast. Most importantly these boots do not satisfy the first commandment above and so, despite their expensive pedigrees, are not acceptable for our overnight backpacking sections.
Frozen boots as in soaked, is a trip limiting issue. I am not sure I want to be in the mountains with a person that mis-steps at the trailhead into a creek though. What stupid thing is that person going to do 10 miles in? If you boots are damp from the days sweat they can sit outside at night for several nights before you are going to start noticing the boot lose warmth from freezing. If you are that worried about your boots freezing from sweat, or your foot takes a swim early into a trip, or it does decide to rain and then refreeze (which can happen in the Northeast in the winter) then put your boots in a stuff sack and sleep with them in your bag. Many people buy a longer bag for winter for this exact reason.
If you are careful not to get wet (not damp, WET), which is one of the cardinal sins of winter camping and mountaineering you won't have any problems with frozen boots for tips of less than a week.
I still think the best thing to do is rent several different types of boots on your first few trips and see what feels right. What works for one's foot will destroy anothers.
The one thing to note about Erics post is that The Mountaineer doesn't rent gear. Only EMS rents gear.
A few posts back I mentioned using trail runners with good plastic bags, one over the liner sock, the other over the insulated sock inside the trail runners. Good down to 10F for me while hiking. Not sure how much lower temperature this will work, because I haven't had the opportunity to test them lower. Yet.
Looking back at other posts about the Forty Below Light Energy Overboot I see others using a similar system but adding the overboot and finding it good down to 0F.
See:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/reviews/display_reviews.html?forum_thread_id=18988&skip_to_post=168921
You can substitute similar types of bicycle overshoes used for winter biking. I have several pair and some fit over my trail runners.
For the Adirondack High Peaks region you may not need anything more than these plus good traction snowshoes. Many of the high peaks have very limited above tree line terrain. Some e.g. (Santanoni/Panther/Couchsachraga have no real area above tree line.
Good snowshoes and Microspikes should suffice. The peaks with the most exposure can be tackled a bit later after you gain experience. You can see whether you can get away with just snowshoes and microspikes.
Note: this is for most of the Adirondack High Peaks.
This is not necessarily for the New Hampshire White Mountains which have more exposed and rougher conditions that might necessitate heavier boots, ice axes, real crampons.
Nor is this for the Mountain West.
In most of the Adirondack High Peaks it is unlikely you will find yourself in a situation where you are skidding uncontrollably down a hillside for any appreciable distance. You will most likely hit a bush, tree or rock outcropping long before you pick up serious speed.
One way of testing footgear for cold is to try a trailsneaker with breadbags on one foot and an insulated boot on the other. Go on a short walk on the coldest night you can find. See how your feet feel. Go for a long walk.
Add a cheap bicycle overboot. Try that.
Find a steep, snowy/icy slope in some nearby hilly park. Put on your snowshoes and see whether you slip. Try the microspikes similarly.
It'll give you an idea of the value of these relatively inexpensive devices before you resort to the heavier and more expensive gear.
Marty Cooperman
Cleveland, Ohio
I'm thinking that while the advice about removable liners is valid, I just can't imagine hiking in such a stiff boot like a plastic boot with removable liner, so an expensive/plastic mountaineering boot is way off base for me. In thinking about what I'm doing, I will be spending most of my time below tree line snowshoeing on the trails, and I think I need a boot that has some flex, not a boot that is made of plastic and heavy, more for exposed ice routes. Maybe I'll find at some point that I need something like that, but I would feel more comfortable with a regular insulated hiking style-boot that has some stiffness, a shank for example, but still will allow me to move well on the trails. But because I'll be above tree line sometimes, and because I will be doing shorter day hikes up more technical routes, I can't see loving the sorel-style boot. I think I'm going to use some insulated hiking style boots like the and the suggested la sportivas or these: http://www.backcountry.com/lowa-mountain-expert-gtx-boot-mens
I'll be prepared to rent plastics if necessary, but for now they just seem a bit overkill. If anyone else has found a boot they think is somewhere in between – like a hiking boot but with a removable liner, please let me know so I can check them out.
Adam, as I have already said: plastics at this stage would be overkill for your intended purposes. I know a few people who use them for winter here in Colorado on 13K and 14K but they really are not necessary. Now if I was doing big mountains then they would be mandatory.
I have no knowledge of those Iowa Mountain boots, so I will not comment. What I will say is that you are looking for an a one-boot that does all and like everything else related to the outdoors you will not find such a product.
For below treeline snow-showing on moderate terrain then something with a full shank or even a half shank is likely just going to be too stiff and rigid for extended periods. If this is what you will mainly be doing, then any boot with 400g on Thinsulate such as the Garmont Momentum will be ideal for this situation. Now while a soft boot, they will be compatible with strap-on crampons and a lot of people I know go this route during their first winter season– obviously they are not nearly rigid enough for vertical terrain or long snow routes with a lot of ice, but this combination will get you to the summit of quite a few peaks.
If you find yourself learning towards more winter summits, crampon use etc then I would opt for something with a half-shank like the La Sportiva Glaciers– still rigid enough to kick steps with crampons and will offer a little flex for use with snowshoes. They are not insulated, but many of my friends wear these with a liner sock under a thick Smartwool mountain type sock in the high peaks during winter without issues; throw in a toe warmer or two between the two layers and be comfortable all day long!
for day hikes and shorter hikes … normal boots should be fine … or they would be in my area at least
just have a backup plan should things go south … just like anything else
Last Feb I started a 4 day 3 night trip at -20F at 7am out of ADK Loj. If that isnt cold enough to require serious winter boots someone please tell me what is.
My leather snowboard boots with removable liners, I think are exactly what you are looking for. For comparable boots go to either EMS in Lake Placid or The Mountaineer in Keene Valley and try on their selection of removable liner leather boots. I still agree that Plastic boots might not be the best solution. I also still think that until you try on a few different types of boots YOU won't know what will fit your feet and feel right while hiking.
However, just so we are all on the same page here, and meeting your original future hikes. Here is the high peaks alpine region that consists of the REAL peaks in the high peaks. Not the little ones that only 46ers climb. These photos are from the end of March this year.
And alpine in the whites in May (Mt. Washington, Tuckermans Ravine).
I WOULD NEVER TAKE NEW BALANCE TO ANY OF THESE REGIONS AT THESE TIMES OF YEAR.
All these alpine zones can be avoided but if you have an interest in climbing peaks like Marcy and Washington (as previously stated), or you would like to spend nights in these mountains during the winter, where you will see temps well below 0F, then REAL mountain boots will be required.
If you just want to day hike around the high peaks but never above 3000' then less of a boot will be needed, then go with what is the most comfortable in snowshoes and a good pair of gators to deal with fresh snow up to 18" deep.
PS. My profile photo is from the summit of Basin (4826'), about 150 vertical feet below the summit of Haystack in ADK high peaks. Same end of March trip as pictured above. We would not have gained that summit without crampons, ice axes, and true mountain boots which were put on at around 4200' when we took the snowshoes off. On the way up we found up to 3' deep pockets of unconsolidated snow several times once above 3500'.
thanks for you info, its good. can you suggest some brands of removable liner leather boots like you mention above, just so I can see what you mean? my snowboard boots are big and too heavy.
Not really, I don't have alot of experience with all the different types of boots available. I just know I like my leather snowboard boots work great for what I do and what I think you want to do. I meet the guy at The Mountaineer last winter, He is a great guy that will spend as much time as you need to fit you in the right boot. He is also a no BS type of guy so if you tell him what you want to do in the mountains in the winter he will bring out several pairs of boots that will do the trick and fit you in all of them to let you decide which ones fit best. As everyone here has had different recommendations, no one boot is going to meet all your needs. And especially no ones boot that has already been mentioned. What fits your feet and works for you is the best boot, even if no one else wears it. IE my Rossignol BOA lace system snowboard boots from 7 years ago…
The usual names to look for are La Sportiva, Scarpa, or Kofalach, but there are others that aren't as well known (read could be cheaper) that could also meet your needs. Or even something outside the normal accepted boots… snowboard boots. There is a new splitboard boot out this winter that has me really wanting an extra $350.
http://www.sparkrandd.com/products/spark-boot/
My offer still stands about ice axe and crampon techniques, those skills are required to climb the big peaks in the ADK or White Mountains
You are right about Sorel-type liner boots being too floppy for steep country. I use an 8 inch leather Goretex boot with 400 gram Thinsulate and a thick wool sock for most hiking/shoeing in mountain snow. They have the lateral support needed for side hill walking but are still plenty warm. Boots with 600 gram Thinsulate shouldn't be overly hot for walking in colder temps either.
Consider stores that sell boots for elk hunting. Cabela's recently had some for $89 that looked pretty decent and had great online reviews. Quality? well they do have the advantage of volume on their side so don't think it's impossible. I recently bought a pair for $150 but there are probably plenty of better boots available for less. One almost has to try on a bunch as fit is important.
Folks concerns about stepping in a creek are all valid. A partial solution is to carry an extra pair of dry socks and a couple pair of bread bags. A better solution might be a back up pair of mid-weight wool socks covered with a pair of NRS 2mm neoprene socks.
If you get a pair without a rubber rand, consider caulking the joint at the welt with silicone seal or shoe goo since that's usually where they leak.
These aren't mountaineering boots so one does need to respect their limits.
For many years I used plastic double winter mountaineering boots and full crampons for my winter excursions to the White Mtn. alpine zone. Two years ago I decided that this was overkill, heavy and not all that comfortable. My current set-up–which has been up Adams twice, Madison and Jefferson, in January and March and again two weeks ago up Adams and Jefferson–consists of Cabela's Snowrunners, which are 400 gram thinsulate leather hiking boots and which cost as little as $59 on sale, and Katoola microspikes. In the evening I wear my old Sierra Designs down booties. Probably 80-90 percent of the winter ascenders on the Northern Presidentials(Second and third highest mountains in the Northeast), my favorite stomping ground, now use microspikes instead of full crampons. This is serious winter hiking, not ice climbing.
I still have my koflach polo's from the Eighties, a plastic hiking boot with thin removable liners. Works in that sloppy/freezing range and weighs very little. Wonder if
they still make them. If things look desperate and I don't want T1 ski boots or Full
Double boots to clomp around in, they work pretty well. Take crampons, stay warm with the
right socks and VBL.
Shown in this old Backpacker Mag
Repost the system of VBL's I use on feet. Shown with fabric boots, but works well with
heavier stuff too. It makes those bread sacks last longer.
http://cattarp.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/using-light-boots-in-the-snow-and-wet-vapor-barrier-socks/
Excellent advice, thanks. This is kind of the feeling I've had all along, but again, I'll have to try a few things to make up my mind. Now I'm going to see what I can find in the older posts about the best glove system. Thanks for everyone's input!
For none technical climbing were your hands are not really involved, i.e. it is still more of a "hiking" than a "climbing" motion then I use OR's PL 400 in conjunction with BD's Mercury Mitt– but I tend to have cold extremities. So if you run warm them you could probably get away with a thiner liner glove than the PL 400. However, for a warm over-mitt then I recommend the Mercury mitt with whatever liner you feel comfortable with. For example, some of my friends use fingerless gloves under the Mercury mitts, other prefer a thin wool liner– it really depends what your comfort range is.
My two layer glove system will take me down to -20 pretty easily, probably more like -25.
thanks for all the input. I've decided to go with a pair of SALEWA RAPACE GTX boots, oversized for mountaineering socks, liners, and possible VBL liner. they are solid as hell, and very light. most of all, affordable. i like how they are lighter than leather. i'll let you all know how they work out!
Adam,
It looks like these boots weigh 1-1/2# per boot.
And cost $260.
You mentioned that they were very light.
And affordable.
Am I looking at the same boots you bought?
Marty Cooperman
Cleveland, Ohio
Haha, yeah ok so they aren't that light, but they are a lot cheaper than real mountaineering boots are, which I don't really need anyway. But when compared to all these plastics, sorels, and other leather/heavy/intense boots people have been suggesting these aren't so bad in terms of weight. I like a technical hiking boot most of the time, and for the technical snowshoes I am using I think this kind of a boot will work best for multi-use winter snowshoeing/hiking/peak bagging. I went to stores and tried a lot of boots on. Most average winter boots or lined boots were way to soft for me. The removable liner mountaineering boots were way too stiff and expensive. I am very familiar with 3 season footwear, and basically it seems that the best move here is to upgrade to stiffer than my 3 season shoes (I use salomon XA Pro 3D Mid GTX Ultra boots) which means heavier weight. If you have another solid suggestion, I'm certainly open.
I have never heard of this company before I am very interested to know how you like them and how you think they handle below 0F. Is the gortex liner removable? For weigth comparision my boots are a little over 2.5 lbs per boot. Stupid heavy, they are on the list to be replaced but there is still a few seasons of life left in them.
I too am interested in your feedback on the Rapace. Last summer I picked up a pair of Salewa's Mountain Trainer Mid boots, and they have been phenomenal. But they are nowhere near warm enough for 0F conditions. I'm looking at both the Rapace and the Raven models. Although Salewa's US sales office is just down the road from me, I can't find a retailer carrying either model anywhere close.
Stuart,
The Raven's are what sparked my interest too. The higher ankle support is better for me. I found them at Bentgate Mountaineering's website. I would assume they have them in their retail shop in Golden. I have read mixed reviews on Bentgate on the internet but, mostly people complaining about their prices, they run great discounts. Last winter I bought a WM bag for 20% off from them.
http://www.bentgate.com/salewa-raven-combi-gtx-mountaineering-boot.html
Jeremy,
Thanks for the pointer. It looks like Bent Gate carry both the Raven and the Rapace. Will get down to Golden in person to compare them side by side.
I checked Neptune Mountaineering, my nearest Salewa retailer, and they only have Scarpa / La Sportiva for winter boots. I did try on a pair of Scarpa Jorasses which fit well, but they're almost certainly overkill for what I need this winter.
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